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What kind of game do you want 40k to be?
Simulation - I decide who and where, but the game rules are the primary factor for what is happening
Game - My decision should be the primary factor in deciding what is happening

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Loyal Necron Lychguard






 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Why are you guys being so hostile about this? I am merely asking for your preferences.

It's really baffling how many people are getting toxic about a simple question. And for sure it takes quite a bit of paranoia to assume anything but curiosity behind this - maybe you should take a break from these forums if a simple "what kind of game do you like?" makes you fling insults and suspicions around.

"THatS noT WHat ThOSe TErmS MEan!!!!111" - who cares! I clearly defined two opposing ways to approach the game and it doesn't matter one bit which lable was attached to them.

My drive was merely to understand some people better when they write stuff. But I guess that's what you get for posting on dakka.
Because simulation =/= deterministic, nor does game mean non deterministic. You show a fundamental lack of understanding and are making conflated and loaded statements in order to get the results you are looking for.

If you want an equivalent of simulation vs game, look at alpha strike vs total warfare in battletech.....

This discussion has been meaningless because you intentionally undermined it.

There have been people that have said they prefer deterministic and others that have said non-deterministic, the fact that you think it's a loaded question is on you, because there is no right or wrong answer, I certainly don't know what OP wanted from the thread, nor did the ones that said they prefer the opposite kind of game I like.

Why use Battletech terms instead of the terms used in the thread where the question arose from? The discussion hasn't been meaningless since it clearly shows that some people like being more in control and other people don't want to be in control of what happens and just want stuff to blow up at the game's direction.
   
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Terrifying Doombull




 Jidmah wrote:
Why are you guys being so hostile about this? I am merely asking for your preferences.

It's really baffling how many people are getting toxic about a simple question. And for sure it takes quite a bit of paranoia to assume anything but curiosity behind this - maybe you should take a break from these forums if a simple "what kind of game do you like?" makes you fling insults and suspicions around.

"THatS noT WHat ThOSe TErmS MEan!!!!111" - who cares! I clearly defined two opposing ways to approach the game and it doesn't matter one bit which lable was attached to them.

My drive was merely to understand some people better when they write stuff. But I guess that's what you get for posting on dakka.


We're not getting toxic. You're setting up false equivalences and demanding we take it seriously. Your question doesn't reflect preferences, it sets up a false narrative with a preferred correct response. Years of manipulative polling makes that a pretty inherently hostile act.

You specifically aren't asking 'what kind of game do you like?' Even ignoring the labels you used, your definitions don't allow for actual gameplay. No agency or total control don't make for games. It's meaningless.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:
No agency or total control don't make for games.

That's not the options of the poll, the options are leaning towards more control or leaning towards less control.
Simulation - I decide who and where, but the game rules are the primary factor for what is happening
Game - My decision should be the primary factor in deciding what is happening

Primary factor means there can be secondary factors, like decisions mattering some or game rules mattering some.
   
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant




Vancouver, BC

 vict0988 wrote:
Voss wrote:
No agency or total control don't make for games.

That's not the options of the poll, the options are leaning towards more control or leaning towards less control.
Simulation - I decide who and where, but the game rules are the primary factor for what is happening
Game - My decision should be the primary factor in deciding what is happening

Primary factor means there can be secondary factors, like decisions mattering some or game rules mattering some.

You can design a game where you don't have perfect control and/or perfect information where your choices still play the largest role in the game's outcome just as you can design a system where you have perfect information and control and are still a less important factor than dumb luck.

In both Risk and Monopoly you have near perfect information but nobody is going to argue about which game allows for more skill expression.
   
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Terrifying Doombull




 vict0988 wrote:
Voss wrote:
No agency or total control don't make for games.

That's not the options of the poll, the options are leaning towards more control or leaning towards less control..


Go back a few posts, where Jid is explaining what he meant by those options.

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Voss wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Voss wrote:
No agency or total control don't make for games.

That's not the options of the poll, the options are leaning towards more control or leaning towards less control..


Go back a few posts, where Jid is explaining what he meant by those options.

Those are the extremes, snakes and ladders vs tic tac toe, but the poll is still leaning towards snakes and ladders or leaning towards tic tac toe. The extreme positions were used to explain the general trend. One person has said that the people that want the game to be more like tic tac toe are tryhards and that snakes and ladders with toy soldiers sounds amazing to them, I have said that I think the move away from snakes and ladders towards a more tic tac toe-like game has made the game better for me. Why don't you just say whether you want 40k to be more like snakes and ladders or tic tac toe?
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Why are you guys being so hostile about this? I am merely asking for your preferences.

It's really baffling how many people are getting toxic about a simple question. And for sure it takes quite a bit of paranoia to assume anything but curiosity behind this - maybe you should take a break from these forums if a simple "what kind of game do you like?" makes you fling insults and suspicions around.

"THatS noT WHat ThOSe TErmS MEan!!!!111" - who cares! I clearly defined two opposing ways to approach the game and it doesn't matter one bit which lable was attached to them.

My drive was merely to understand some people better when they write stuff. But I guess that's what you get for posting on dakka.


You defined two opposing poles and refuse to acknowledge that there could possibly be an infinite spectrum between them. "Player agency" isn't a binary variable that's either 1 or 0. Both options (where nothing unexpected ever happens or where you have no control over what happens) would make 40k terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
...Those are the extremes, snakes and ladders vs tic tac toe, but the poll is still leaning towards snakes and ladders or leaning towards tic tac toe. The extreme positions were used to explain the general trend. One person has said that the people that want the game to be more like tic tac toe are tryhards and that snakes and ladders with toy soldiers sounds amazing to them, I have said that I think the move away from snakes and ladders towards a more tic tac toe-like game has made the game better for me. Why don't you just say whether you want 40k to be more like snakes and ladders or tic tac toe?


Because there's an infinite spectrum between the two extremes and reducing what I want 40k to be to "more like snakes and ladders" is equivalently wrong to describing it as "more like tic-tac-toe" for the same reasons?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/06 18:35:29


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Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

Putting aside the definitions (which I find a little off), I suppose I prefer that my units in 40K do what I ask them to do. So they don't have to make a Leadership check to shoot something other than the closest target.

I have played tabletop wargames were you had to write orders for your units and they had to follow them unless they spotted the enemy and then had to make a troop quality check. It was fun, but it was also a lot of work to have that fun. I wouldn't want 40K to go that route. Having said that, I could get behind some kind of Leadership check when you ask your unit to do something particularly dumb/suicidal for them but game-winning for you.


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I like a game that is immersive where the decisions on the tabletop is more important than decisions made before the game.

I also like a lot of friction in the game. The decisions should be about when and where to attack, not about what each individual miniature is doing.

Witch box should i tick?

 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
...Those are the extremes, snakes and ladders vs tic tac toe, but the poll is still leaning towards snakes and ladders or leaning towards tic tac toe. The extreme positions were used to explain the general trend. One person has said that the people that want the game to be more like tic tac toe are tryhards and that snakes and ladders with toy soldiers sounds amazing to them, I have said that I think the move away from snakes and ladders towards a more tic tac toe-like game has made the game better for me. Why don't you just say whether you want 40k to be more like snakes and ladders or tic tac toe?


Because there's an infinite spectrum between the two extremes and reducing what I want 40k to be to "more like snakes and ladders" is equivalently wrong to describing it as "more like tic-tac-toe" for the same reasons?

How can you ever make a poll without you getting your jimmies rustled then? If you want something perfectly in the middle then just say that, because if snakes and ladders and tic-tac-toe are equally wrong then you must want something right in the middle. You could also make an example of a change you liked or disliked. Did you like the change to damage allocation, the charge, assault and morale phase that changed it from being the game's AI taking over and forcing you to move your models according to specific rules or do you prefer being able to move as much or as little as you want and removing the models you like from your unit?

 jhnbrg wrote:
I like a game that is immersive where the decisions on the tabletop is more important than decisions made before the game.

I also like a lot of friction in the game. The decisions should be about when and where to attack, not about what each individual miniature is doing.

Witch box should i tick?

Probably the simulation based on you wanting an immersive experience and because you don't want to micromanage how your 3 Poxwalkers surround your opponent's one Aeildyr Guardian to prevent that one model (and as a result the rest of his unit) from falling back. The tabletop tactics vs list-building argument isn't super relevant to this thread, it depends on whether you love making decisions during the game that make or break the game or you just hate the game being decided in the list-building phase. If you think the game can be both immersive and allow the players to do what they want rather than what the game tells them to do and you're okay with list-building mattering but you just want the player's decisions during the game to be the alpha and omega in deciding the victor then vote for game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/06 18:58:33


 
   
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Going into more detail about the specific example here the target priority rule is a terrible idea in a vacuum, yes. Games I've played or written that used it or any variation of it have always included simple exceptions; Mordheim let you shoot the closest Large Target instead of just the closest target to avoid goblins screening for trolls, and let models in an elevated position pick their targets. At an even simpler level you can play around being forced to shoot at the closest thing by moving/positioning such that the thing you want to shoot is the closest thing to you. Yes, the rule "takes away player agency," but it isn't a universal non-interactable always-on thing, you can play around it. It has the practical effect of adding to player decision-making by giving you a restriction you have to deal with during play.

Dropping restrictions from play to "increase player agency" can speed up and streamline the game, yes. It can also reduce gameplay to the point where there is no game. One very common restriction on what models can do in wargames is movement speed; I can only go a certain distance in one turn, and some models can move faster than others. "This is unfair!", you could write, "I want to be able to place my model wherever I want it!", and write a thirty-page essay explaining exactly why it's fluff-justified, and then you remove all movement speeds from the game and say "the movement phase is picking up all your models and placing them somewhere else on the board." You've streamlined the game! You've reduced the movement phase in the rulebook to one sentence! You've made it easier for new players to make their perfect-play moves! But would you play that version of 40k? I wouldn't.

Let's go to a further extreme using the example people keep throwing out here. Tic-tac-toe is a very deterministic game. Playing correctly is trivial, it's a draw every time unless you let your opponent win, and it's 100% based on player decisions. It has very few rules. Let's take one of those rules out; instead of "you can make one move a turn" let's go for "you can make as many moves as you like every turn." We're reducing restrictions on player actions! We're making it possible for a player to make a decision to win instead of just making a decision to not lose! Player agency is increasing! Except no, it isn't, all we've done is make the first player win.

I think the question Jidmah thinks he's asking is about rules that give the player agency versus rules that don't. Let's imagine in 40k you had a rule that required your units to make a Leadership test to shoot at all. No exceptions, no edge cases, no nothing, just a Ld test to shoot. This is a rule that adds randomness without adding choice; this is snakes and ladders in the analogy. It makes the game less predictable, but it doesn't give you new things to do, it adds bloat without adding decision-making. By comparison let's imagine a rule that gives every unit the ability to choose at the beginning of the turn to be in "offensive" mode and get +1 to hit or "defensive" mode and get +1 to saves. This is a very deterministic and player-choice-driven rule, it's not random, it adds a lot of choice, and it could easily add a lot of interesting gameplay.

The problem I have here is that the poll doesn't acknowledge the existence of a third kind of rule, which mixes randomness and player choice. Let's use 3e-7e Deep Strike as an example here; instead of getting your unit to land exactly where you want it you place it where you'd like it to be and then roll the scatter dice to determine where it ends up. If you scatter off the board or onto an enemy unit you roll on a table to see whether your unit is only delayed, or misplaced, or just dies. This is random, yes, and it can lead to your unit dying because of the dice, but it also forces you to consider trade-offs when making gameplay decisions. You can put a unit in Deep Strike and guarantee it's invincible until it gets to shoot, but you risk it not landing exactly where you want it to and not getting its shot. You can place a unit close to the enemy in gaps you couldn't fit a unit in under the 9e Deep Strike rules, but you risk it dying horribly if you do so. By making Deep Strike purely deterministic in 8th/9th GW reduced the randomness of the game, yes, but they reduced gameplay decision-making by making leaving units in Reserve such a no-brainer they had to add the 50% rule and the no-models loss so people didn't do Deep Strike null-deploy every game, and they made Deep Strike positioning purely a matter of picking the optimal geometry instead of requiring any risk/reward decision-making. The randomness made players make more decisions, not fewer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
...How can you ever make a poll without you getting your jimmies rustled then? If you want something perfectly in the middle then just say that, because if snakes and ladders and tic-tac-toe are equally wrong then you must want something right in the middle. You could also make an example of a change you liked or disliked. Did you like the change to damage allocation, the charge, assault and morale phase that changed it from being the game's AI taking over and forcing you to move your models according to specific rules or do you prefer being able to move as much or as little as you want and removing the models you like from your unit?...


An intelligently-constructed poll isn't just one false dichotomy. Every other poll I've ever seen on Dakka has been better than this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/06 19:15:03


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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