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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
ccs wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

It is disappointing to see two codexes released in a row that have significant, obviously broken elements to them, but at least the ad mech one seems to have less than the DE book did.


You're not seeing the trend: Everyone get's some broken grak. It's intentional.


How did your theory work out for DT wracks and Stupid Succubus?


100%. It's right there in the codex in black & white. They got their broken gak.

And then after a bit it was taken away. Right in time for you all to shift to screaming about adMech. Surprise, surprise, surprise....

yukishiro1 wrote:
Spoiler: Not so well. Unless your argument is that they release things in a deliberately broken state then fix them a couple months later in order to promote churn. Which isn't very well supported by the fact that DE were sold out literally the entire 2 months they were IH-level broken.


"GASP!" I'm shocked. How could you ever think such a thing about GW???
Spoiler:
Yes, yes I do think that. Because I've been watching them do it for 30 years. The only thing different now vs years ago is that they do it faster.


Ok, I've said this before, but evidently we have some slow learners in this class....
GW wrote these books based upon "Business as Usual".
And in recent years that "Business as Usual" is a general plan it seems to goose initial sales of the new book/certain kits with OP rules. Soak up x$, & then nerf it just in time for the next OMG! release.
Which means they were fully intending on being able to hit their planned sales of DE stuff. They clearly did not write these books with the limitations they currently find themselves dealing with.

And guess what? The next books in line don't take this global snafu into account either. And I'll be amazed if only 1/2 of them follow the broken gak pattern.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 07:09:05


 
   
Made in pl
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ccs wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:

It is disappointing to see two codexes released in a row that have significant, obviously broken elements to them, but at least the ad mech one seems to have less than the DE book did.


You're not seeing the trend: Everyone get's some broken grak. It's intentional.


Well we will see. When csm or GK come out, and they will be "OP" and then get nerfed, then the pattern is going to be making perfect sense.


After playing two more games, yay summer vaccations and not being assigned to training camp, my end view on ad mecha is that, they are a powerful book, same way DG or DA were. They dunk on bad armies, are balanced vs other new armies. And they are not even close to stuff DE could do. They are, but this is a personal thing, overloaded with over stacking rules, which makes it harder to remember which are active and which are passive at given moment, forcing people to talk a lot durning the game, which I find extremly annoying.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

 vict0988 wrote:

Ah, yes, the wait and see crowd have already started coming out of their hole they crawl into every time they call for more time for a 60+% WR faction to run rampant and just generally make the game less fun only to find out that yes, some rules really are OP. Custodes don't suck they were one of the best factions not too long ago

While sharing your experience with AdMech is appreciated, your personal attack against people with a different approach and opinion is unnecessary.
Logic dictates that we do wait and see for more datapoints before making a final call. Or is there any reason why your single game and impression is worth more than another player saying their single game went well and AdMech is alright?

ccs wrote:
"GASP!" I'm shocked. How could you ever think such a thing about GW???
Yes, yes I do think that. Because I've been watching them do it for 30 years. The only thing different now vs years ago is that they do it faster.

I was young when I started in 3rd edition so I could have missed it or forgotten what happened back then. Care to share a few examples from each edition that can show how this was done consistently? I don't remember any kind of balance changes after a Codex release from 3rd to 6th edition.

Grey Knights Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




While sensible to do. I think everyone can agree that, if we use DE as an example of something ending up as OP, ad mecha do not come up even close to it. They are a solid good army, if they were anything like DEs we would be seeing it day one. There is no, wrecks do what?, moment as far as mechanicus lists goes.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





 DarkHound wrote:
When everyone's super... no one will be.


Well gw's goal isn't everyone is super. Gw's goal is constant definition of super going up. Today's super is tomorrow's junk.

Got to keep players switching armies to current super. sells more

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
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 vict0988 wrote:


 the_scotsman wrote:
I didnt have anything super critical in 18" range of his ranger bricks...

They can get 24" range pretty easily with a support character, 27" is also possible. With an advance (which I think they can improve somehow) their threat range can be pretty great. The -1 to hit doesn't stack so now they're ignoring the -1 to hit on your flyers and whether they are hitting on 2+ or 4+ doesn't even matter that much because it's the 4+ that don't need to roll to wound.

Even just getting a 4+ poison that works vs vehicles would be great for 1CP, it'd be almost as good with 2+ to hit but in cases where they hit on 4+ it would be a lot worse. It's a 4CP Stratagem, use it three times and you're getting 9CP for free. 8th edition morale rules might have balanced things out, but even if you lose 10 and then fail your LD test, that's 4 dead, it's really not a big deal since the unit stops being absurdly effective after losing 8 models anyways.

20 buffed up Vanguard only kill 2 THSS Terminators, but if you don't have a 1+ Sv you should prepare to get blasted, they can ignore cover I think, so if you thought SS Vanguard Vets hiding in a crater were safe you'd be wrong.

It's also incredible that GW insists that pre-game moves leading to T1 charges are fun and fair when we found out at the very start of 8th that it really isn't.


Rangers, not vanguard. He had the techpriest manipulus granting the bonus range and granting the ignore AP-1 AP-2 ability, plus the warlord skitarii marshal, so he was looking to get in range of the 'turn my guns into rapid fire 2' + 'do MWs on a 6' stratagem, which meant he had to get into 18" range in order to get that off.

Most people who don't know much about gsc have the osmosis knowledge of 'ridgerunners are the only good unit' so he heavily focused on destroying those in his turn 1 when he got all his offensive buffs. In our matchup, they were probably my least effective unit, given that he only had one heavy tank and a couple of the melee ostriches which were right in his front line where I could go get them with aberrants. On my turn, he had the 'ignore ap-1/ap-2' on but most of what I shot him up with was just ap- anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
While sensible to do. I think everyone can agree that, if we use DE as an example of something ending up as OP, ad mecha do not come up even close to it. They are a solid good army, if they were anything like DEs we would be seeing it day one. There is no, wrecks do what?, moment as far as mechanicus lists goes.


Yeah I feel like the distinction between 'out of the gate first couple weeks 55% wr' and 'out of the gate first couple weeks EIGHTY PERCENT WINRATE' does have to be noted here, lol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/11 11:25:14


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Ah, because I am not very good at english, at stuff gets said wrong by me , I think, or misunderstood. I think the mecha codex is good and I am happy that mecha players got a good one. Because woe to the first faction that gets the first bad or worse then other codex in 9th ed. Those people are not going to be happy.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
[DCM]
Aspirant Tech-Adept






This thread is amusing.

The biggest culprit seems to be the 2 variants of skitarii brick with chickens.

Now lets talk about the reality of those 3 things.

Firstly, Ranger squads of 20.
They have a good base gun, but to make full use out of them you gotta take a manipulus with a holy order trait to baby sit them together with a Skitarii Marshal.
Now you've got a good unit that ate up2 precious HQ slots 310 points and requires 3 CP per turn to bring out that incredibly, deadly firepower... that stops on the next piece of obscuring terrain. You can use all that gak to kill a 5 man squad of marines and then... yes, that's about it. Dont play on planet bowling ball. Also, this will bleed you try quick in terms of CP. Plus Skitarii are fragile. Point something at them, its still only a T3 1W 4+.
Its nice on paper, but can fall flat on its face very easily if they get shot, LOSed or tagged in combat. "But Thairne, you incredible good looking and sophicisticated German genius, " you will say, "they can fall back and shoot!"
Yes, but that also means they will not ignore any AP, cannot ignore heavy movement modifiers and are just again a human baseline that is 1sv above a guardsman. Unless you pile even more stuff on top which makes them closer to 400-450pts unit. And if you complain about that, I honestly cannot help.

Next - Skitarii Vanguards.
Same thing as above applies. You need a Manipulus at least and pretty much require Lucius to deepstrike them.
Thats again about 305pts plus a relic/a limited use stratagem to DS them.
Yes, the strat is very nice n good, but it does not work against vehicles at all. So all those high toughness targets you want to get rid of? Doesnt do gak against (sorry tyranids).
If you consider the 160pts baseline unit, you spend a 1 CP to inflict 5 wounds on your average terminator. Add a storm shield and/or an apothecary and the damage falls of drastically. So 305 pts inflict like 70 pts of damage in that scenario.
Vanguard are good at stomping low saves, but even if you kill 20 Necron warriors, which is about the ideal target, you invest 305 to kill 260. And are likely to be out in the open, and even if not - if you struggle to kill t3 3+, I have bad news for you. They dont even trade up in that regard.

And dont forget the morale issues you run into with 20 man blocks that cant reanimate with this body statline.
Kill 6 and you almost certainly force a morale check. That will kill another 3 models extra. So now this unit is reduced to half strength which reduces the output and efficiency of said brick by the same amount. And, again, killing 6 T3 4+ models is not a challenge. Kill 10, and you kill another 6 with morale which means the unit is reduced in effectiveness to being a screen/speedbumb.

Now, as for chickens - yes, chickens are good. They are probably the most effective AT gunline in the game right now. They still are fragile. In the end, they're T6 6W for 65 pts. That means your average melta will oneshot them 50% of the time with a damage roll.
They die absolutely easy in melee, are not resilient to shooting and are so tall and have large bases that it is not easy to hide all of them. And if you're scared of 2-3 balistarii in 2k games - what are you doing? If they can shoot you, you can shoot them. Those 10 balistarii lists cannot hide more than half of them at any point in time.Its not like they have any special save with a 3+/6++.
DS something. Shoot them. LOS bombard them. Charge them. Hide. Psychic them away, something AdMech basically has no defense whatsoever except one canticle and graia.
They pay for their damage output in fragility.

It all looks nice on paper, but as was said multiple times in this thread - getting it to work is one thing. Getting it to work against an opponent that works against you is yet another thing. And then you run out of steam if you opponent doesnt take your units appart because durability is an issue past bulwark/shroudpsalm.
There's one tanky round. There's one shooty round. After that, it goes downhill fast and you can only hope that you build your list well enough that you can have one fighty round as well (at the cost of the shooting).

These elements are all strong, but reality is different than reading a codex. The game I managed I had to concede before my T3 because I got rofstomped by Sisters (8th!) despite having chickens and a ranger block at 1k points.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 12:53:19


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Karol wrote:
Ah, because I am not very good at english, at stuff gets said wrong by me , I think, or misunderstood. I think the mecha codex is good and I am happy that mecha players got a good one. Because woe to the first faction that gets the first bad or worse then other codex in 9th ed. Those people are not going to be happy.


Has already happened, deathwatch is pretty bad.

Admech seems slightly over the average line, sisters if you made me bet would hit it squarely dead on average, and DE was so far the most major outlier in terms of power followed by DG.

DE still seem to be pulling over 60% after the first round of nerfs, so I think GW probably ought to do a special 'whoops CA was at the printers when we released DE, here's the points bumps they should have gotten' round of nerfs.

I'd add +10 to succubi, +1 to wyches, +1 to the Trueborn upgrade, +5 to Dark Lances on vehicle platforms, -5 to disintegrators on vehicle platforms, +15 to Voidraven Bomber, +2 to sslyth, +2 to hellions and +2 to incubi and see where that takes things.

...I'd also remove Blade Artists. Becuase I think it's dumb and unneeded.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Wicked Ghast




IRT OOP
Finally got to play a few games over Friday and Saturday and they are fine. I lost both games, but I didn't lose the games because of the OMG PLZ NERF wombo combos, I lost because I made mistakes that I don't think I would make again (like not knowing that ad mech had a Deep strike strat that ate my guard on arrival in one game, and some rules errors in the second...apparently Kataphrons aren't core now? IDK, I have the codex, but I haven't read through it completely and have been a bit busy). Every game I played I saw the infamous 20 man unit of rangers or vanguard, (or whatever they are, not an Ad Mech player here) and they just soaked up some firepower and lost some guys so when they big kahuna came through to auto wound, it wasnt that many shots. feels like that is what its going to be like. Laser chickens are absolutely scary as hell to anyone with large number of wounds, cause you wont have htem for long once they fire up, but the army has some VERY real weaknesses. just pushing forward and focing him to develop on the table in both games put him on the back foot for several turns until i made some mistakes. Oddly, a buddy of mine is convinced that eliminators will be mandatory in the new meta now given how dependent on characters both Ad Mech and Sisters are, not to mention DG, and he may have a point (especially since, unless you build them not to be, admech characters are a bit squishy).

It's a solid codex. Good players are going to know exactly how to use the doctrine imperatives, and that'll be tough, (and that was the other rules blunder we made, we completely forgot the negative aspect of the doctrine he picked) but in the average game, for the grand total of two that i have got to play so far, it didn't feel completely out of place, over the top or broken, it felt powerful with some incredibly significant drawbacks.
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:


I'd also remove Blade Artists. Becuase I think it's dumb and unneeded.


They had to put that in to give DE a generic army-wide rule, since they made PfP the purity bonus instead.

Even Ad Mech have the super boring 6+ bionics as their army-wide rule.

I mean it obviously didn't have to be that particular thing and I agree re: it not being a great rule, but they clearly have a blueprint they follow on this stuff, and that's why it is there, so it can't just be chucked in the bin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/14 02:08:55


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:


Has already happened, deathwatch is pretty bad.



I don't find Deathwatch to be terrible; the chapter tactic isn't fabulous on its own, but it combines nicely with the specialisms.

It would have been nicer to make SIA more accessible to the Primaris based teams; there are still ways to do it, but they aren't cheap.

Many of our strats are situational, and they aren't cheap either. Kill Teams are nice though- you can take 5 man units of types that are normally restricted to 3, and you can hand out Obsec like halloween candy. I'm fielding a pure KT force, so pretty much everything in my army has Obsec.

Again, I'm not super competitive, so I'm not really concerned about exact rankings. Crusade helps mitigate some of the issues I have (SIA is WAY more accessible in Crusade), so that helps too, but even without that extra umph, I still don't feel like the army is hopeless on the table.

   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Ah, because I am not very good at english, at stuff gets said wrong by me , I think, or misunderstood. I think the mecha codex is good and I am happy that mecha players got a good one. Because woe to the first faction that gets the first bad or worse then other codex in 9th ed. Those people are not going to be happy.


Has already happened, deathwatch is pretty bad.

Admech seems slightly over the average line, sisters if you made me bet would hit it squarely dead on average, and DE was so far the most major outlier in terms of power followed by DG.

DE still seem to be pulling over 60% after the first round of nerfs, so I think GW probably ought to do a special 'whoops CA was at the printers when we released DE, here's the points bumps they should have gotten' round of nerfs.

I'd add +10 to succubi, +1 to wyches, +1 to the Trueborn upgrade, +5 to Dark Lances on vehicle platforms, -5 to disintegrators on vehicle platforms, +15 to Voidraven Bomber, +2 to sslyth, +2 to hellions and +2 to incubi and see where that takes things.

...I'd also remove Blade Artists. Becuase I think it's dumb and unneeded.


May I ask you where you are taking this data on post nerf DE?
There have been zero events with the FAQ applied so far, up to my knowledge.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Ah, because I am not very good at english, at stuff gets said wrong by me , I think, or misunderstood. I think the mecha codex is good and I am happy that mecha players got a good one. Because woe to the first faction that gets the first bad or worse then other codex in 9th ed. Those people are not going to be happy.


Has already happened, deathwatch is pretty bad.

Admech seems slightly over the average line, sisters if you made me bet would hit it squarely dead on average, and DE was so far the most major outlier in terms of power followed by DG.

DE still seem to be pulling over 60% after the first round of nerfs, so I think GW probably ought to do a special 'whoops CA was at the printers when we released DE, here's the points bumps they should have gotten' round of nerfs.

I'd add +10 to succubi, +1 to wyches, +1 to the Trueborn upgrade, +5 to Dark Lances on vehicle platforms, -5 to disintegrators on vehicle platforms, +15 to Voidraven Bomber, +2 to sslyth, +2 to hellions and +2 to incubi and see where that takes things.

...I'd also remove Blade Artists. Becuase I think it's dumb and unneeded.


May I ask you where you are taking this data on post nerf DE?
There have been zero events with the FAQ applied so far, up to my knowledge.


Oh yeah? Fair enough then, I was just looking at 40kstats and sorting by the last couple weeks, but if none of those events use the faq I stand corrected.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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