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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





dammit wrote:
 Insularum wrote:
Core rulebook FAQ repeatedly makes the RAI case for no he can't throw infinite grenades whenever dealing with attacks that generate additional attacks


The grenade part is absolutely not RAI, no - but it's definitely RAI that he gets to shoot his autocannon until he scores a hit with it.


I agree with this, but I dislike the rule. It’s a prime example of throwing dice for the sake of it. No matter what you roll the outcome is never in doubt, so why bother rolling. His rule should be he automatically scores a hit if he fails all his BS rolls or some such instead.
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller




Aash wrote:
dammit wrote:
His rule should be he automatically scores a hit if he fails all his BS rolls or some such instead.


Good point.

Automatically hitting and trying again arent the same thing.

If he was meant to "always hit", to represent retrying, then logically, the rule would have just said this.

So logic clearly dictates that the intent was either to "allow autocannon shots to continue until a hit is made" or, much more likely and probably how it will be FAQ'd, "you get 1 additional shot if the first was a miss, once all other shots from the unit are resolved".

I know, I know, GW and logic have rarely been in the same town, let alone room.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Fictional wrote:
Aash wrote:
dammit wrote:
His rule should be he automatically scores a hit if he fails all his BS rolls or some such instead.


Good point.

Automatically hitting and trying again arent the same thing.

If he was meant to "always hit", to represent retrying, then logically, the rule would have just said this.

So logic clearly dictates that the intent was either to "allow autocannon shots to continue until a hit is made" or, much more likely and probably how it will be FAQ'd, "you get 1 additional shot if the first was a miss, once all other shots from the unit are resolved".

I know, I know, GW and logic have rarely been in the same town, let alone room.







I hate saying this because I have RAILED against it in the past, but RAW trumps RAI unless it is clearly a violation of house rules such as a tournament ruling. As of right now, RAW say Bragg gets infinite grenade tosses until he misses twice with the auto cannon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/21 13:31:20


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




If someone tries that, in a tournament, then we're not finishing that turn, and that player is not going to win. In a lot of tournaments that could be a pre turn 3 end to the game, resulting in penalties to both players. Sucks to be them.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




nosferatu1001 wrote:
If someone tries that, in a tournament, then we're not finishing that turn, and that player is not going to win. In a lot of tournaments that could be a pre turn 3 end to the game, resulting in penalties to both players. Sucks to be them.


I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but every tournament I have been at (like NOVA) I believe would call a judge and ask the judge to rule on the ability if the players disagreed. Assuming the judge allowed infinite grenades, then either chess clocks would be brought out or one player could concede. There would be no penalty on anyone.

This is also assuming the tournament didn't issue it's own pre-event FAQ.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Audustum wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
If someone tries that, in a tournament, then we're not finishing that turn, and that player is not going to win. In a lot of tournaments that could be a pre turn 3 end to the game, resulting in penalties to both players. Sucks to be them.


I don't know what tournaments you have been to, but every tournament I have been at (like NOVA) I believe would call a judge and ask the judge to rule on the ability if the players disagreed. Assuming the judge allowed infinite grenades, then either chess clocks would be brought out or one player could concede. There would be no penalty on anyone.

This is also assuming the tournament didn't issue it's own pre-event FAQ.
Oh yeah, if I were a TO I'd never allow this.
Likewise, if you tried to pull this in a casual game, I'd laugh, and if you were serious, you'd get the stink eye something fierce, and likely not get a game again.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




No, I also wouldn't allow it. But if there was an allowance for it to operate, nthe chess clock is out and the Bragg player absolutely times out.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Is it really that much of a problem? After Bragg has killed everything in 6" ok great, then his turn is over, and onto the next turn. Are we seriously worried about bragg suddenly appearing within 6" of a Knight Lancer or a Baneblade and dropping it turn 1?
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
It still works, all bragg needs to do is throw a grenade the first time. Then no hits were scored with his autocannon, and he can shoot again with the grenade. After he attacked with a grenade the unit has resolved its attacks.
No, it absolutely does not work more than one additional time.

The Shoot Again section of Rare Rules. "When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot earlier in that phase one additional time." Doing it a second time is against the rules.

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/21 21:12:06


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".


Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".


Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.
Only when his unit gets done shooting. They do not have permission to shoot a second time.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".


Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.
Only when his unit gets done shooting. They do not have permission to shoot a second time.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.


When bragg is the only model shooting his unit is done shooting. There is nothing in the rules saying that the entire unit must shoot. One model out of ten shooting is fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 05:01:21


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

How are you ignoring the rules that say "one additional time"?

Two or more times is not "one additional time".


Braggs rule says he can shoot again. Thats more specific than this general rule. Special rule overrides general rule.
Only when his unit gets done shooting. They do not have permission to shoot a second time.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.


When bragg is the only model shooting his unit is done shooting. There is nothing in the rules saying that the entire unit must shoot. One model out of ten shooting is fine.
When bragg is the only model shooting his unit is done shooting the first time they shoot.

After that the unit is forbidden to shoot again, but a single model (not the unit) gets to shoot if he did not hit with his autocannon.

We need to see a citation that allows you to shoot more than once for the unit that Bragg is in. Thus far only the bragg model has permission to shoot again, not the unit. If you can not provide a citation, then we can consider this closed.

Any way you slice it, he can only shoot one additional time.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

We have to agree to disagree, because this is going nowhere.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Bragg is clearly part of his unit, as such Bragg shoot necessarily involves his unit shooting.

If my Tactical Squad fires a lascannon, the Tactical Squad has fired.
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




DeathReaper is right and it’s clarified under Rare Rules, “Shoots Again”

“When a unit shoots again, any models in that unit that have already shot with any of the weapons they are equipped with earlier in that phase can shoot with those weapons one additional time. When a model shoots again, that model can shoot with any weapons it is equipped with that it has already shot with earlier in that phase one additional time. When a model can shoot with a specific weapon again, that model can shoot with it one additional time if it has already shot with it earlier in that phase.“

There are three categories: A unit shoots twice, a model shoots twice, and a weapon shoots twice.

Bragg’s rule specifies that model shoots twice. The Rare Rules elaborate that this is NOT the unit shooting twice. The recursive nature fails after Bragg’s second grenade (or AC shot).
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I don't see in that quote how a single model shooting doesn't count as the unit shooting?
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




For the unit to fire, each model in the unit would need to select a weapon, a target, etc or do nothing.

Rare Rules, Shoots Again specifies that no, actually, the unit is not selected to shoot again. Just Bragg. The other five models are not “selected” and being forced to do nothing, they’re not being activated in any way.

Bragg falls under the second “Shoots Again” category, a model(s) being selected to shoot again.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

But Bragg is part of his unit. Anything that includes Bragg necessarily includes his unit.

That's like saying I don't live in England, I only live in Bristol. Clearly I don't live in the entirety of England, but I do live in a part of it.
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




You aren’t selecting the unit and choosing not to fire with each model that doesn’t have the shoots again rule. This is the scenario where the unit is shooting and is required for the recursive function.

You are selecting the model Bragg both because his rule says “this model” and because the Rare Rules explicitly and in no uncertain terms differentiate between a unit shooting, a model shooting, and a weapon shooting more than once a phase.

He is a part of his unit but his unit is not resolving attacks a second time. That model is resolving attacks a second time and it’s specified in two different places that this is the case.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




There is nothing in that rule that says that shooting again cannot produce further shoots again effects.

So.

- Bragg shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again
- Can shoot one additional time.
- Brag shoots and misses. Triggers shoot again.
- Can shoot one additional time.

'One additional' is not the same thing as 'only one additional'

Which absolutely matches RAI. The issue is that the trigger has a loophole that makes it not RAI.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 15:10:21


 
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




You are ignoring most of the rules here.

The sequence is:

Ghosts fire -> Bragg misses -> Bragg fires again because the unit has resolved attacks.

The second time Bragg fires the sequence is

Rare Rules Shoots Again (RRSA)/Bragg's Rule select Bragg to fire as a model, not as a unit -> Bragg misses -> Bragg cannot fire again as the unit has not resolved attacks, RRSA has had a model resolve attacks.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.


If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




dammit wrote:
When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with.


If any attacks ware resolved by models inside that unit, that unit has resolved attacks.


IF you select that unit to shoot with.

Both Bragg and the Rare Rules select a model to shoot with at the top of the shooting sequence. You are never picking that unit to shoot again with.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




There is no mechanic to select a model to shoot with, only a unit.
   
Made in us
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle




dammit wrote:
There is no mechanic to select a model to shoot with, only a unit.


As per RRSA, that is not true.

There is a difference between a model in a unit resolving attacks and a unit resolving attacks. You might not like that there’s a difference but that difference is explicitly laid out in RRSA. A unit can shoot again OR a model can shoot again OR a weapon can shoot again.

Bragg doesn’t put the unit at the top of the shooting sequence while resolving attacks, only himself.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Apart from braggs rule, which is what the rare rules section references.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I don't know why you keep referring to that rare rule; all it actually does is define that 'unit shoots' = all/any model with all/any eligable guns, 'model shoots' = one model with all/any eligable guns. It doesn't create any mechanisms, unique or otherwise.

But because you are hanging on to that rule, i'm engaging you on your terms. That rare rules makes no mention of a model being selected to shoot. Step one of shooting is selecting a unit, not a model. So is your argument that the model never shoots again, because a unit can't be selected to shoot twice, at all. Does this ability actually do nothing?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:01:13


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I think you're again confusing posters. Don't.
That model shoots. Not the unit.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




It is only confusing because your argument is broken.

There is no mechanism in the game that involves a model shooting without the unit it is in having been (explicitly or implicitly) selected to shoot, and therefore resolving its attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 17:16:09


 
   
 
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