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Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

I don't care what TOs say. It's house rules, and has nothing to do with RAW. No one knows RAI, except the GW rules team.
If a special rule says a unit fights twice, or again, then that overrides the general restriction that a unit can't fight twice in the fight phase.
   
Made in dk
Dakka Veteran




Danmark

 p5freak wrote:
I don't care what TOs say. It's house rules, and has nothing to do with RAW. No one knows RAI, except the GW rules team.
If a special rule says a unit fights twice, or again, then that overrides the general restriction that a unit can't fight twice in the fight phase.


UNLESS! it uses specific stratagems, like orks is never beaten. Or get stuck in ladz.

You say no know knows rules as intended, then why would you link us the space marine equivilent that has been updated? you clearly meant for us to go: oh yea that ones been updated clearly death frenzy and orks is never beaten will too, so we should not fight twice.

If that wasnt the case why even bother linking that stratagem.

RAW no unit can fight twice unless special rules permit it to do so, including stratagems.

like the stratagem we talk about. You dont interpret as being able to attack twice, but most others do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 14:44:23


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Except the GW rules team, and of course you?

It's also noteworthy that the GW rules team saw every 40k tournament playing that "house rule" and left it.
They FAQed other stuff like Leman Russes standing stationary, but this rule they left. One can reasonably conclude that, unlike the Leman Russ, the rules team did not see issue with how this rule was being used.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Reading a rule in a way that breaks the game is not RAW, it's being toxic for the sake of starting a fight over rules.

No more, no less.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Beardedragon wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
I don't care what TOs say. It's house rules, and has nothing to do with RAW. No one knows RAI, except the GW rules team.
If a special rule says a unit fights twice, or again, then that overrides the general restriction that a unit can't fight twice in the fight phase.


UNLESS! it uses specific stratagems, like orks is never beaten. Or get stuck in ladz.

You say no know knows rules as intended, then why would you link us the space marine equivilent that has been updated? you clearly meant for us to go: oh yea that ones been updated clearly death frenzy and orks is never beaten will too, so we should not fight twice.

If that wasnt the case why even bother linking that stratagem.

RAW no unit can fight twice unless special rules permit it to do so, including stratagems.

like the stratagem we talk about. You dont interpret as being able to attack twice, but most others do.


The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?

EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 15:49:58


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 doctortom wrote:
The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?

EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.


You are right, nothing gives you permission to ignore any of these restrictions. However, when you are using this stratagem in your turn, it's usually because something knocked you down that you failed to kill or that did a heroic intervention on you.

After all, it's not the point of this stratagem to run off to kill some completely uninvolved intercessors after you got your skull smashed in by the chaplain you were dueling.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?

EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.


You are right, nothing gives you permission to ignore any of these restrictions. However, when you are using this stratagem in your turn, it's usually because something knocked you down that you failed to kill or that did a heroic intervention on you.

After all, it's not the point of this stratagem to run off to kill some completely uninvolved intercessors after you got your skull smashed in by the chaplain you were dueling.


That's what I thought. P5Freak was actually right in that the slain Ork couldn't fight (but could shoot a pistol) that second unit, but didn't have the reason right - it was because the unit charged someone else, killed them, then consolidated into something he didn't declare a charge against and got killed because they got free shots on him. If it wasn't a round that he charged though, he could attack when playing the stratagem.
   
Made in us
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P5Freak is partially correct if you go back to the start of his argument, Orks is never beaten would not allow you to attack a unit you had not charged (or that hadn't used heroic intervention) but is completely wrong in saying that an Ork character that had already fought couldn't fight again as the strategem explicitly gives permission to fight.

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Danmark

well. obviously i mean, i feel like that was already covered.

You cant charge in, attack something, consolidate in to something else and then for what ever reason attack that which you consolidated in to, no matter what stratagem you use.


That was my first question of course and it was answered.

But alas, i would say he is wrong in saying you cant in general attack twice, using the orks is never beaten stratagem. I dont feel like the long discussion afterwards were ever about whether you could use the stratagem to attack a dude you hadnt charged. It was about whether you could, in general just attack twice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/22 19:06:57


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 doctortom wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
The stratagem says you can fight, but since it's the same turn you charged, wouldn't you be under the same restrictions you were earlier in the fight phase? The original example was charging and destroying a unit, then consolidating a second unit, which then gets a chance to attack you but you can't attack them since you declared a charge against a unit that wasn't them. Playing the strat to attack again, wouldn't you still be under the restriction that you couldh't attack the unit that you consolidated into since you didn't declare a charge against them but against someone else that turn?

EDIT: Orks is Never Beaten says you can either shoot or attack, so if you were in engagement range and had a pistol I suppose you could shoot that at them.


You are right, nothing gives you permission to ignore any of these restrictions. However, when you are using this stratagem in your turn, it's usually because something knocked you down that you failed to kill or that did a heroic intervention on you.

After all, it's not the point of this stratagem to run off to kill some completely uninvolved intercessors after you got your skull smashed in by the chaplain you were dueling.


That's what I thought. P5Freak was actually right in that the slain Ork couldn't fight (but could shoot a pistol) that second unit, but didn't have the reason right - it was because the unit charged someone else, killed them, then consolidated into something he didn't declare a charge against and got killed because they got free shots on him. If it wasn't a round that he charged though, he could attack when playing the stratagem.


He made the same argument as the first part of his response and no one really contested that. He just was completely wrong on the second part, which was the reason why this thread went to two pages at all.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

I am not wrong about OINB. Simply stating that unit can immediately shoot or fight doesnt let it fight or shoot again, the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice, or shoot twice is still there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 08:00:44


 
   
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Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
I am not wrong about OINB. Simply stating that unit can immediately shoot or fight doesnt let it fight or shoot again, the restriction that a unit cannot fight twice, or shoot twice is still there.
A single model attacking does not = the unit attacking.

OINB does not let the unit fight again, it specifically lets a model fight.

Specific > General.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Bristol (UK)

That's a spurious point to make when the model is part of the unit, when it's the entire unit you're really reaching.

The only basis for this claim DeathReaper is a section that explains what those effects do, never does it state that a unit is not responsible for its models.
   
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Chicago, IL

 kirotheavenger wrote:
That's a spurious point to make when the model is part of the unit, when it's the entire unit you're really reaching.

The only basis for this claim DeathReaper is a section that explains what those effects do, never does it state that a unit is not responsible for its models.
It is not false and no reaching needed.

Of course a model is part of a unit, every model is a part of a unit. The unit is not attacking. A model from the unit is making attacks because a Strat allowed him to do so. Specific trumps general and all that.

For the unit to attack, they would have to have a rule allowing them to do so.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
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Bristol (UK)

For the rest of the models in the unit, yes.
But a model is part of a unit and thus you cannot select a model to shoot without also having selected their unit.

Is it any different from shooting a lascannon when all the bolters in the squad are out of range/LoS? In both cases certain rule(s) are preventing other models in the unit from shooting, but other models in the unit are also shooting.
   
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Chicago, IL

 kirotheavenger wrote:
For the rest of the models in the unit, yes.
But a model is part of a unit and thus you cannot select a model to shoot without also having selected their unit.

Is it any different from shooting a lascannon when all the bolters in the squad are out of range/LoS? In both cases certain rule(s) are preventing other models in the unit from shooting, but other models in the unit are also shooting.
Good thing you are not selecting a unit to shoot.

The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.

With the "ORKS IS NEVER BEATEN" strat you do not select the unit at all. You simply use it "when an ORK CHARACTER model from your army is slain."


As for the shooting a lascannon scenario:

It is different because in the lascannon/bolters in the squad scenario, you select that unit to shoot.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
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Germany

 DeathReaper wrote:

The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.


Irrelevant. Units cannot make attacks, only models can. GW doesnt know the difference. When they say no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase, they really should be saying no models in units can can fight more than once in the Fight phase. Technically no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase is wrong.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

We've reached "GW doesn't write their rules right, I know what their RAW are actually meant to be"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 12:14:42


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.


Irrelevant. Units cannot make attacks, only models can. GW doesnt know the difference. When they say no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase, they really should be saying no models in units can can fight more than once in the Fight phase. Technically no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase is wrong.

Except they don't say that. And unless they do, your reading of the rules isn't supported.
   
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Danmark

 p5freak wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The strat does not follow the normal fight phase sequence, so you never select the unit/model to attack.


Irrelevant. Units cannot make attacks, only models can. GW doesnt know the difference. When they say no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase, they really should be saying no models in units can can fight more than once in the Fight phase. Technically no unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase is wrong.


the company that makes the rules dont know the difference?
Who even cares. they make the rules, and what they should be saying and doing doesnt matter. Our way of reading in to this is supported by the fact that no FAQ has been released stating otherwise. And such moves as what we're discussing has been done at tournements and been allowed.

GW does look at the tournements after all.

The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:03:35


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian






Germany

Beardedragon wrote:

The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.



They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.
   
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Danmark

 p5freak wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:

The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.



They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.


yet here we are and you're the only person advocating for that.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 p5freak wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:

The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.


They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.
Units can not fight twice... "No unit can fight more than once in the Fight phase." (P 21 Left column, 2nd graph 1st sentence of the GW PDF rules)

Good thing that never happens with OINB.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 17:20:42


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 p5freak wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:

The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.



They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.

The unit is t fighting twice, a model is.
   
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Danmark

nosferatu1001 wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:

The orks is never beaten rule as well as death frenzy for tyranids will probably change after the codex releases, but right now thats how they work, with being able to attack twice.



They were never being able to attack twice with death frenzy or OINB, because the restriction is still there. No permission is given to fight a second time, or twice.
The unit is t fighting twice, a model is.



are you arguing against me or for me? because you are arguing that the model can attack twice in a single turn, while at the same time saying they cant because of some unit/model bla bla stuff.

Im not interested in the terminologies here, you are able to charge in, hit something, get hit, die, use stratagem, hit once again, and then die for good. In my book thats you hitting twice. Whether you want to call it something else but argue essentially for the same thing as im saying, is.. well.. i mean sure

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 22:42:29


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The quote messed up

The unit isn't fighting twice, the model is. That's fine in the rules!
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






I guess technically nosferatu and DeathReaper are correct, but I also don't think it matters.

The way I see it:
1) There is no permission to fight for the dying character if he is killed in - say - the psychic phase.
2) The stratagem gives permission to fight.
3) The dying character does not have permission to fight after being selected to fight in the same phase.
4) As established in 2), the stratagem gives permission to fight.

That said, the thread should just be abandoned. p5freak has and will never admit being wrong once he has settled on an interpretation, no matter how absurd. All the arguments are in this thread and anyone with half a brain can see what is going on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 08:15:49


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Danmark

true

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot





Actually after going back and fully reading the strategem, I hate saying this because I've never seen it happen before, but I think deathreaper is actually *painful grimace* right......

OINB doesn't say you can immediately fight, it says

"you can immediately fight as if it were the fight phase"

so that fight would be subject to all the rules of the fight phase. If it is already the fight phase and you have already fought then you can't fight again without something that specifically enumerates a second fight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 17:30:19


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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yet you csn. The bar on fighting twice is on units. Not models.
   
 
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