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Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







no but they are convenient.

Tape measures are one object that can be adjusted to measure any relevant distance. The "combat gauges" are multiple objects that measure the specific distances when turned the right way around.

Both could be used, but some people will have preferences one way or the other.

Why, yes I have had user experience training recently

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/16 11:39:24


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

chaos0xomega wrote:
But again, why do you need to see torrent (Circle) 2"? You aren't measuring 2", you are measuring circle. 2" is irrelevant, it means nothing. You are using the measuring tool they gave you. No doubt if there ends up being an official competitive circuit for Kill Team, use of that tool will be mandated/other measuring devices will be banned.

Stop trying to hold on to the use of your tape measure - they aren't anything special, magical, or significant.


Why? because I can intuit how far 2" is better than "circle", thats why. When I look at two models close to each other, I can make a reasonable guess if they are 2" apart or not. That effects the potential choice of target, if i can then take benefit of torrent ability to hit two targets instead of just one, and effects the positioning of my own models if i want to avoid this form an attacker with a flamer. Ergo, the ease of understanding of what it does or doesn't do is relevant to my perception of ease of use of the rules.

The designers of KT have clearly decided they want to minimise the need for distance measuring in general, and long distance measuring in particular. That is a perfectly acceptable design choice, particularly if it speeds up gameplay, to which i have no objection to (at least until i have played it). All I'm asking is that if i want to keep working with the inches i am comfortable with and good at quick estimation with, that the rules take the minimal consideration for that, as i am sure i cannot be the only KT player with a background in wargaming who is good with inches. I'd wager that most of their potential customers would be, to be honest.

And its factitious, at best, to act like the distances on the measuring tool* are not just inch measurements in a convenient form. They are, the designers admit as much in providing a direct conversion table that shows it. Its not like they are talking about supporting different scales where the base unit might be a 1cm, or 2 inches, its clearly just a 1inch scale. And for that purpose, its not any better at that than a 6" plastic school ruler I can get form the supermarket for pittance.



ive never played any GW game at a "competitive " level, and dont expect to play KT in such a manner, so what may, or may not, be mandatory at that level is irrelevant to how I will play KT


stop trying to insist that this new system is perfect and unimpeachable, and any dislike is pure reactionary hatred without merit- It is anything special, magical, or significant either.



*any word if this will be available separately, by the way? I don't collect either orks or guard, so I'm not exactly heavily incentivised to buy the box set just for the rulebook that will be available seperately, and a trio of plastic markers.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





I can intuit how far 2" is better than "circle"

I've got good news for you, then! Circle just means 2", so you'll be just fine intuiting how far 2" is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/16 13:29:44


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 Flinty wrote:
no but they are convenient.

Tape measures are one object that can be adjusted to measure any relevant distance. The "combat gauges" are multiple objects that measure the specific distances when turned the right way around.

Both could be used, but some people will have preferences one way or the other.

Why, yes I have had user experience training recently


But you only need to know 4 precise measurements between 1" and 6", so a 10'+ tape measure is both unnecessary and overkill. Also less accurate than a pre-fixed movement tool that allows you to actually place the measuring device in direct contact with the models base to enable end-to-end movement instead of eyeballing approximate points.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
But again, why do you need to see torrent (Circle) 2"? You aren't measuring 2", you are measuring circle. 2" is irrelevant, it means nothing. You are using the measuring tool they gave you. No doubt if there ends up being an official competitive circuit for Kill Team, use of that tool will be mandated/other measuring devices will be banned.
Stop trying to hold on to the use of your tape measure - they aren't anything special, magical, or significant.

Why? because I can intuit how far 2" is better than "circle", thats why.


I have no idea how long any of the distances in the Star Wars gams, or Song of Ice and Fire, or SAGA, etc. are, yet I'm able to intuit those distances just fine, as is seemingly everyone else who plays.


This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







chaos0xomega wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
no but they are convenient.

Tape measures are one object that can be adjusted to measure any relevant distance. The "combat gauges" are multiple objects that measure the specific distances when turned the right way around.

Both could be used, but some people will have preferences one way or the other.

Why, yes I have had user experience training recently


But you only need to know 4 precise measurements between 1" and 6", so a 10'+ tape measure is both unnecessary and overkill. Also less accurate than a pre-fixed movement tool that allows you to actually place the measuring device in direct contact with the models base to enable end-to-end movement instead of eyeballing approximate points.



The length might be unnecessary, but the package fits well in the hand, and it lets you extend a flexible small thing into small gaps. In tight spaces, I can see a tape being much easier to use than the gauge thing.

Gauges have their place, but they are not a panacea. And then added to that, some people prefer tape measures.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

well, its clear their strong opinion on the gauge, of which i will say no more on that matter, beyond that i still feel that the symbols could have been better chosen, and that using symbols still feels like using inches "with extra steps", to quote the meme.


anyway, whats the opinion on the new melee rules? i feel like it has potential, though i think it might "feel" a little swingy if one bad round of rolls lets Guardsman Plucky do a number on a chaos marine. still, that may not be a bad thing per se if it makes games more exciting

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







Have we seen anything other than the guardsman profile? A dude with a bayonet gets 3 dice in CC. Maybe a marine gets 9?

So if the marine is super wounded, and the guardsman can get a lucky crit in first, otherwise, he's just so much mincemeat.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

I don't dislike the melee rules though I would want to see how they work in practice as I have some concerns.

My biggest issue is the lack of armor. I understand what they are trying to do, but based on what we have seen it seems like a model in terminator armor would be just as easily wounded as a model with no armor at all if both were equipped with the same weapon. I would have liked to see armor represented as a parry modifier, something like armor save 4+ is no mod, 5+/6+ is a -1 mod, and 2+/3+ is a +1 mod. Just to represent the fact that even though you're aiming for weak unprotected joints or exposed flesh, its a lot harder to hit that weak point on a well-armored warrior who is actively trying to parry and dodge your attack than it is to do the same on someone who is wearing no armor whatsoever.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Are there models with terminator armor in Kill Team 2.0?

Maybe power armored units have rules that reduce incoming damage, or downgrades criticals to do normal hit damage, or something to represent the durability of it more than a save score offers?
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

 Flinty wrote:
Have we seen anything other than the guardsman profile? A dude with a bayonet gets 3 dice in CC. Maybe a marine gets 9?

So if the marine is super wounded, and the guardsman can get a lucky crit in first, otherwise, he's just so much mincemeat.


I agree its statistically a long shot, but given the random nature of dice rolls, it will happen, and happen more often than people think it "should".



My biggest issue is the lack of armor. I understand what they are trying to do, but based on what we have seen it seems like a model in terminator armor would be just as easily wounded as a model with no armor at all if both were equipped with the same weapon.


well, i think the armour bypass would just be for regular armour, not invulnerable saves, so termie armour might still be really good.

And, as Rihgu said, we dont know what the rules for termie armour might be. damage reduction or maybe a to hit modifier. theirs plently they can do to add durability to a heavily armoured unit beyond just a armour save.

as to if they will include termies..... I cant see a reason not to. I mean, theirs no reason they would exclude an iconic marine unit.


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





as to if they will include termies..... I cant see a reason not to. I mean, theirs no reason they would exclude an iconic marine unit.

https://warhammer40000.com/kill-team/
On the website, there are no terminators currently listed under the Space Marines or Grey Knights factions, so presumably they won't be involved at the start.

Although that won't stop an "Elites" or "Commanders" style expansion in the coming months.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

chaos0xomega wrote:
But again, why do you need to see torrent (Circle) 2"? You aren't measuring 2", you are measuring circle. 2" is irrelevant, it means nothing. You are using the measuring tool they gave you. No doubt if there ends up being an official competitive circuit for Kill Team, use of that tool will be mandated/other measuring devices will be banned.

Stop trying to hold on to the use of your tape measure - they aren't anything special, magical, or significant.

This is exactly the problem though.
I don't want to use (and therefore buy) a stupid measuring gauge, I already have plenty of my own.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kirotheavenger wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
But again, why do you need to see torrent (Circle) 2"? You aren't measuring 2", you are measuring circle. 2" is irrelevant, it means nothing. You are using the measuring tool they gave you. No doubt if there ends up being an official competitive circuit for Kill Team, use of that tool will be mandated/other measuring devices will be banned.

Stop trying to hold on to the use of your tape measure - they aren't anything special, magical, or significant.

This is exactly the problem though.
I don't want to use (and therefore buy) a stupid measuring gauge, I already have plenty of my own.


measuring tools aside, what else from the box set might we need to buy seperately, the cards? the models and terrain while cool are of no use or interest to me, but if there is stuff in the box you need that might be an issue.
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't dislike the melee rules though I would want to see how they work in practice as I have some concerns.

My biggest issue is the lack of armor. I understand what they are trying to do, but based on what we have seen it seems like a model in terminator armor would be just as easily wounded as a model with no armor at all if both were equipped with the same weapon. I would have liked to see armor represented as a parry modifier, something like armor save 4+ is no mod, 5+/6+ is a -1 mod, and 2+/3+ is a +1 mod. Just to represent the fact that even though you're aiming for weak unprotected joints or exposed flesh, its a lot harder to hit that weak point on a well-armored warrior who is actively trying to parry and dodge your attack than it is to do the same on someone who is wearing no armor whatsoever.

The way I see it, the "parry" roll doesn't just represent the defender using their weapon to divert an attack; it also represents them dodging out of the way or a Marine dropping his shoulder so his giant pauldron can take the hit instead.

As far as I can gather, the units currently in KT all have a WS that is as good as (if not better) than their Sv, so it makes perfect sense to think of a successful Parry as being caused by armour as much as a weapon itself.

It doesn't look like Terminator Armour will be in the base rules (none of the units listed on the KT website have TDA), but if/when an Elites expansion comes out I can imagine it adding +1 to a roll when used to Parry or something.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





I imagine that heavier armours will be represented by ablative wound points, making them much harder to take down.

Not having an armour save won't be a big issue if your wounds value is 20.

that or it is a damage soak, reducing the damage value on a successful strike (to minimum 1) - ie power armour could be Soak (1), while termie could be soak (3) (the power weapon would be 2/5 vs power armour and 1/3 vs termie armour in this scenario).

If marines were W14 and Soak(1) they'd be pretty terrifying...


   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/22/new-kill-team-replaces-points-with-a-fast-finely-balanced-list-building-system/


new infomation, specifically on list building.


basically, they've got rid of points entirely, and instead gone with numerical restrictions related to archtype. SO, a guardsman kill team will have as many as 14 guardsmen in it, but no more than 6 special weapons and a max of two in any specialty, but a death guard kill team would have 3 plauge marines, all with different specialties, and balance in achieved that way.

campgians are managed by creating a double strength "roster" form which you draw form for each mission to make a kill team.

what are everyones thoughts? i think it make a degree of sense, even if it removes the possability of "larger" or "smaller" games form normal play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 16:21:02


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

I've long been an advocate of non-points based balancing systems, as points don't really work the way most people think they do and give you a false illusion of balance rather than actual balance.

But I don't know that I trust GW to implement it correctly, and what they have shown doesn't really give me any suggestion that they did. Mind you, I don't know a lot about how KT plays just yet, but based on how 40k proper plays, its hard to see how those two kill teams would really be balanced against eachother.

Also it occurs to me that with only 10DKoK in the box vs 10 Kommandos, they didn't actually provide enough guardsmen for a proper game, unless theres a separate roster to draw from for the Veteran Guardsmen from the one shown.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





chaos0xomega wrote:

Also it occurs to me that with only 10DKoK in the box vs 10 Kommandos, they didn't actually provide enough guardsmen for a proper game, unless theres a separate roster to draw from for the Veteran Guardsmen from the one shown.

Guardsmen and Veteran Guardsmen are different factions entirely and they haven't shown us what a Veteran Guardsmen or a Kommando fireteam looks like. Just normal Guardsmen. So Veteran Guardsmen might bring 2 5 man fireteams.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







It stops it being your kill team and turns it into GWs kill team that you get to borrow some guys from. I prefer the 1st edition method.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in fi
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot






 Flinty wrote:
It stops it being your kill team and turns it into GWs kill team that you get to borrow some guys from. I prefer the 1st edition method.


As do I. Guess they did end up butchering my favourite game. Well, at least those DKoK models can be used in games of KT1
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







On re reading maybe it’s not so bad. I guess I’m just used to points as balancing method. Even with the point systems there are further restrictions on what can be take on. Mocking the 12 plasma gun guard team seems a bit weird though given that it was GWs own rules that permitted it to be a thing, when it could easily have been restricted in the list options.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Stonecold Gimster






 tauist wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
It stops it being your kill team and turns it into GWs kill team that you get to borrow some guys from. I prefer the 1st edition method.


As do I. Guess they did end up butchering my favourite game. Well, at least those DKoK models can be used in games of KT1


Same... I play with models I like, I'm not a powergamer. But these rules will mean most of my Kill Teams won't have the required models and will have too many of others.

Having only got into KT about 4 months ago, buying Core Rules, Annual, Elites, Commanders and models etc. I'm gonna stick with KT18 (or whatever we're calling it). I'm slow at getting anything painted so when I do, I hate it when new rules make my paint efforts worthless.

Not to mention the new rules feel like a mash of half the other skirmish games already available from other companies. I figure GW are using KT to test stuff out for 40k v11 (v10 is probably already too far down the line to alter already)

My Painting Blog: http://gimgamgoo.com/
Currently most played: Kill Team 18, Kings of War, Silent Death, Beyond the Gates of Antares, Dracula's America, Bolt Action (inc K47), DzC and X-Wing. Dabbling with 40k again and trying AoS3. 
   
Made in be
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Hasselt, Belgium

The article implies you get weapon and wargear options through some system they haven't revealed yet, so I'm hoping for some more flexibility there.

Other than that, I just don't have enough info on how it all comes together to make up my mind on these changes.
   
Made in be
Orc Bully with a Peg Leg




Hasselt, Belgium

It seems that besides the drastic changes, there are some more that were done just for the hell of it.
The inches to icons was one, and it now seems turns are called turning points for some reason:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/02/seize-the-initiative-and-launch-crucial-strategic-ploys-in-kill-teams-dramatic-turning-points/

It's a bit grating that they came up with these unneeded name changes while both Action Points and Armour Piercing are now a thing and both use the same abbreviation.
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

If I understand how they are using it, "Turning Points" are actually "rounds" rather than "turns". I.E. during each turning point, both players will have multiple turns following an alternating activation process. I can't imagine why they didn't just call it a round, but it wouldn't be the first time that GW has substituted made up or unusual language for something mundane.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in gb
Enginseer with a Wrench




Bath

chaos0xomega wrote:
If I understand how they are using it, "Turning Points" are actually "rounds" rather than "turns". I.E. during each turning point, both players will have multiple turns following an alternating activation process. I can't imagine why they didn't just call it a round, but it wouldn't be the first time that GW has substituted made up or unusual language for something mundane.


i dont know for sure, but it might be a case of some of the obvious language has been copyrighted in relation to wargaming and GW needs to work around those copyrights. Honestly, i think thats the best explanation for the shapes chosen for the range tool, becuase creating SOME sort of link between the shapes and the distance is so obvious, we can only assume they thought of it but were unable to use it for some reason.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
Exporitor force kappa-Tercia 500pts Coven of XVth 1000pts
Western Host 1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

There is no possibility that the terms "round", "turn", or "one inch" have been copyrighted.
In fact, rules are very hard to copyright to the point that Pathfinder was able to more or less CtrlC+CtrlV 3.5 edition DnD and publish it as their own.

In fact, I think it's the opposite. GW is following their trend of copyrightable high-gothic names like "Aeldari" and applying it to their game rules now as well.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







They can’t use “round” because players might get confused with the round shape on their measuring doohickey

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kirotheavenger wrote:
In fact, rules are very hard to copyright to the point that Pathfinder was able to more or less CtrlC+CtrlV 3.5 edition DnD and publish it as their own.

Erm, no. Just no. Pathfinder was built on OGL, Open Game License. WotC basically published barebones D&D rules for free and allowed anyone who asks for agreement to use them in their own games within certain limitations. They fell for linux coolaid and believed D&D can dominate RPG market if everyone uses the system - forgetting the distribution wars and splintering for the market lessons. Which were not an issue for a pretty long time thanks to D&D big name until WotC tried to change course with 4th edition and the most popular of dozens of the splinter RPG games, Pathfinder, managed to steal a big portion of playerbase that didn't liked 4th or couldn't be arsed to switch from 3rd. The resulting sales downturn is why OGL for 4th and 5th edition was much stricter, and why GW (and other big game companies) shelved their own rule licensing programs and begin controlling them in much harsher way.
   
Made in es
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 Irbis wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
In fact, rules are very hard to copyright to the point that Pathfinder was able to more or less CtrlC+CtrlV 3.5 edition DnD and publish it as their own.

Erm, no. Just no. Pathfinder was built on OGL, Open Game License. WotC basically published barebones D&D rules for free and allowed anyone who asks for agreement to use them in their own games within certain limitations. They fell for linux coolaid and believed D&D can dominate RPG market if everyone uses the system - forgetting the distribution wars and splintering for the market lessons. Which were not an issue for a pretty long time thanks to D&D big name until WotC tried to change course with 4th edition and the most popular of dozens of the splinter RPG games, Pathfinder, managed to steal a big portion of playerbase that didn't liked 4th or couldn't be arsed to switch from 3rd. The resulting sales downturn is why OGL for 4th and 5th edition was much stricter, and why GW (and other big game companies) shelved their own rule licensing programs and begin controlling them in much harsher way.


That is true... but it also don't prevent anyone from releasing D&D compatible supplements, just from stating it on their covers. And it's what is still happening. You can follow the OGL and its benefits, but it's actuallly not mandatory.

The thing is, as said above, that rules are not copyrightable: the only thing you can copyright is a specific expression of said rules.
   
 
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