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Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
insaniak actually covered both options...
Indeed you did, calling one cynical. I prefer the term "realistic".

Now you're right in that both options aren't necessarily mutually exclusive - they certainly could have done it for both reasons - but given everything GW has been doing of late, the "for the players!" option just doesn't ring true to me.


Making the game easier to access for new people isn't necessarily doing it for "the people", but ultimately a way to increase revenue through enlargement of the player base. Which is a very realistic option considering the world we live in.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think to understand GW you need to recognise a competing interests approach.

I'd imagine it went something like this:

1. "I like WYSIWYG"
2. "But I don't like having to buy multiple boxes just to get sufficient weapons to make the optimal unit comp. The fact this is so expensive forces me to third party suppliers/printers - and starts that ball rolling which may reduce direct GW purchases in the future."

GW: "Oh okay, yeah. Well lets set the rules so you don't need to do that. If you can only equip what's in the kit then one should do and your unit should broadly be WYSIWYG (although we are still not hard enforcing that)."

3: "But some players do like doing this."
4. "And mechanically having to roll separate dice for every different gun is kind of a waste of time."

GW: "Eh.... we've run out of time on this. Moving on, moving on."
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Overread wrote:
It's about making the game more accessible to new people.

GW is well aware that the market and world have changed, kids are far less into craft hobbies than they were many years ago. So GW has been removing some barriers to entry whilst at the same time also adjusting some other elements. EG Killteam is no longer just a few pages in the Big Rule Book, its a product with its own name and marketing and attention.

It is not as much not being in to craft part of w40k, and more about not wanting to buy 2-3 boxs of single unit to get a full load out for one unit. I do have my doubts about GW doing this because of that. Companies care only as far and as much about their customers as far income generations is a thing. I think GW what is in the box policy has more to do with secondary markets, 3ed party companies etc. the what is in the box policy is good when the boxs you have are good. GK boxs are awesome. Termintor box is like 2 different units and 4+ different characters at the cost of a single unit, with buckets of extra parts. It gets a bit less fun, if you want to have one or two units csm havocks armed with the gattling guns, when you get one per box.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

Another point to consider is that I think GW has moved towards creating quality *display* pieces rather than quality gaming pieces.

GW kits are an absolute work of art. Mould are positioned beautifully along edges of detail such that clean up is often not necessary.
Similarly, they have all sorts of wonderful detail and dynamic poses.
Both of these points have only been able to come about as a result of removing options and posability in kits. Having posable/interchangeable arms prevents you putting any detail around the shoulder joints and limits the arm poses you can use.
Hence you get stuff like weapons A and B can only go on body X, and X is the only body they can go on".

So you take that design paradigm and apply it into rules, because you want the rules to precisely match the box.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 09:03:17


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Plus it doesn't work for every army. For something like Custodes a limited kit set with 20+ models in an army isn't much of a problem.

It gets a bit different when someone has 120 orks, and you start to notice that each squad has the same guys in the same pose. And it get double for all those , jumping over the rock or doing something wierd posed models.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Karol wrote:
Plus it doesn't work for every army. For something like Custodes a limited kit set with 20+ models in an army isn't much of a problem.

It gets a bit different when someone has 120 orks, and you start to notice that each squad has the same guys in the same pose. And it get double for all those , jumping over the rock or doing something wierd posed models.


In that kind of situation, I'd lean into it and trade with other players to field whole units in the same position.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

I wanted to avoid turning this discussion into yet another one about monoposes.

At the end of the day it's not relevant to the discussion at hand, beyond the obvious fact that stuff like Plague Marines are very limited and the rules exactly match those limits.
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Gert wrote:
I'm not sure what either the end result of this is or what GW necessarily gains from it.
The biggest issue is how fast and loose the rule is applied.
A unit of Tacticals or Devastators can pretty much take whatever weapon options they want despite them not being in the box, i.e. one flamer and a multimelta or four of any heavy weapon.
But then Wyches and Blightlords are restricted on loadout options.
Now if CSM and Chaos Terminators suffer the same fate, then a solid 60% of my Black Legion suddenly becomes illegal. Which kind of sucks because I put a lot of effort into converting and painting to give each unit loads of character.


It’s not even applied consistently within a BLT unit. CCWs remain unrestricted despite there only being 3 of each in the box. It is impossible to equip an entire squad with axes or swords without conversion or buying multiple boxes, yet here we are with this asinine trend that is so anti consumer and anti converter it’s not funny.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wanted to avoid turning this discussion into yet another one about monoposes.

At the end of the day it's not relevant to the discussion at hand, beyond the obvious fact that stuff like Plague Marines are very limited and the rules exactly match those limits.


It’s the root of the no model no rules issue. So “Beyond the obvious fact” glosses over the point that it’s core to what’s going on.

Things like the options for a primaris SM captain showcase this. There is no multipart kit, just a series of monopose. And the gear options follow. Even though they make no sense from a lore PoV. Captains should have pretty much free range of the armory, but if you want a plasma pistol, you need to pair it with a powerfist. Despite it being the classic sidearm of the well equipped since time immemorial. It gets worse that some options are chapter locked for no other reasons then it’s what a specific model was geared with.

Intercessor sergeants have more flex in what they can take. But not reivers or most other squads. Despite the ranges being compatible and a weapon swap one of the easiest things to do.

--

On the point of ease of entry, there is a point, but I feel it’s more the official spin on a marketing decision. How many times to we see people here ask “what’s the best way to build X kit?” Compare that with the years before 8th. I feel it’s gone down a lot.

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




I'm not too sure that people turn to 3rd party kits just to save money. As an example Victoria Miniatures' Arcadian troops cost US $49.99 + S&H for 10 figures. GW charges $45 for 10 figures + local taxes. The GW figures are probably easier to access as well for most people since they have shops world wide.

I think most people buy from 3rd parties for variety. For instance I'm not particularly thrilled with the current choices of either Cadian or Catchacan guard units but I loved the OOP Praetorian units. I can't get those units from GW but I can from Victoria. So, I'd be willing to spend a little extra to get what I like. The same applies to greater daemons. The GW figures are nice but if I need to have more than 1 then I want something a little different. GW doesn't really offer a lot of choices but there are vendors out there that make beautiful greater daemons that cost about the same as GW's. So I get the other vendors' figures as well or in some cases in place of GW's.

The only time it matters is if/when you play in "officially sanctioned" GW events (and, based on rumors, not even always at them). So, while GW may be doing this to discourage buying from 3rd parties I think they're going in the opposite direction by limiting choices rather than embracing them.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






My guess is that their new playtesters were giving feedback about needing more <special weapon> models to test properly, and GW finally realized that even normal people would actually go out of their way to buy three or four boxes (or worse, third party bits) to build those combinations.

What do they gain from this? Less variations to test, less knowledge required to start the game, less people leaving from being frustrated over building their first units in a bad/illegal way.

What do they lose? Nothing. Let's be honest, no matter how pissed everyone is about these dumb, dumb changes, none of use will spend vastly more or less money of 40k because of this.

From GW's perspective it's an all upside change, even if you don't imply malice.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Why they just didn't simply produce some upgrade spruces with the extra weapon options is lost on me.
It's the same lesson that itunes proved all those years ago. Want to stop piracy (or in this case 3rd party sellers and ebay-box-set-break-up-ers)? Simple offer people an easy and affordable way to buy what they want directly from you.
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







I'm glad accessibility came at the cost of people who put in the effort to assemble their models in a certain way, rather than simply telling the designers to put more stuff in the box.

The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
Made in us
Swift Swooping Hawk





Apple fox wrote:
I think management has no real plan and just changes ideas every second codex or so and the rule writers are stuck trying to make it work at this point.


I think it's this one. GW optimizes towards making money when they understand a situation. But I think they often misunderstand how people play the game, and then you just have these little initiatives that come and go and massively screw over one army/kit and leave another army/kit unchanged. It's a boring answer but it's the only one I've got for this particular phenomenon, it's just too arbitrary where it gets applied and where it doesn't.

I guess the one other thing I can think of is that, as far as I can tell, GW has never truly broken a unit (i.e. rendered it non-functional/complete garbage in the game) with this edict, so maybe they understand enough to not cross that particular line. But then again, I seem to recall that exact thing happening in Sigmar to Kharadrons; some multi-layout unit was released with no rules on the weapon comp, and then redone to be 1 of X, 1 of Y, 1 of Z... I don't know if that completely neutered it or not. But I also get why you'd have to have that sort of enforcement in Sigmar since there are no points costs for weapon selections.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 12:33:34


 
   
Made in ca
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






Honestly, I think this is all part of trying to balance the kits better with Power Level. One of the biggest criticism of Power Level, is that you could have a 5 man death company squad with nothing, or another with every model armed with thunder hammers and stormshields, and it'd both cost the same PL. Well, if you're not able to do that, and are limited to specific options, it makes it a lot easier for the Power Level rating to hold true and balance.

Makes the Datasheets in 40k look more like the Warscrolls in AoS, which makes balancing minimum unit sizes to a set value of Points/Power Level a lot easier.


SamusDrake wrote:
As a Harlequin player its slightly annoying when the Troupe kit only has two fusion pistols, when the whole unit can be outfitted with them, which is 6 models in a kit.


I'll expect this won't be the case when their book gets re-done.



Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






At least with skitarii some effort seems to have been put in to make multiweapon squads functional - ranges were altered to make sniper+plasma optimal for rangers and arc+plasma optimal for vanguard, and a strat eas added to make rangers dangerous at close range so if you build the arc and plasma for them youre not shooting yourself in the foot.

The truly bizarre one was leaving Wracks in DE the same not limiting to one liquifier per 5 as in the kit, and leaving Kabs able to take 2x blaster 1x DL, bit limiting the nearly identical melee options on wyches seemingly just to make them irritating to resolve.

I always took 1x net or 3x razors/3x gauntlets just to make it faster to resolve their attacks. The kits are, as all DE kits are, fully compatible with each other, just like marine kits.

And also, minor thing, but gw pretends to be oh so precise but theyre telling me all the chain-flail thingies that come in the wych kit are "Knives." Uh-huh, GW.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






SamusDrake wrote:
As a Harlequin player its slightly annoying when the Troupe kit only has two fusion pistols, when the whole unit can be outfitted with them, which is 6 models in a kit. Also, although less relevent, Shadowseers and Death Jesters only get a single pose even though we can field multiples.

Given the incredibly small range of models it wouldn't hurt for them to make an upgrade sprue for Harlequins.


given GW's method of fixing things I am willing to bet their solution will be 1 fusion per 3 harlies in the next codex. as for death jesters and shadowseers being mono pose models I don't expect that to change barring some kind of box set where they include special models to increase sales, that is sadly how most xenos armies sigle blister pack models work. sometimes you can get older edition models for it, the old shadowseer and death jester existed but looks really dated next to new harliquins.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wanted to avoid turning this discussion into yet another one about monoposes.

At the end of the day it's not relevant to the discussion at hand, beyond the obvious fact that stuff like Plague Marines are very limited and the rules exactly match those limits.


It isn't just a monopose thing. It is like that ETB champion with fist, that is build in a such a way that he has a hard to remove plasma gun on his back. monopose is one thing, limitation going back to how GW cuts their models is another.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





I was thrilled when the new CSM Havocs were released. Later I found out that the box ONLY included a SINGLE gatling gun. Killed my enthusiasm on the spot and my wallet sighed in relief.
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:
 Darnok wrote:
GW wants to keep as much control over "its models" as possible. As a customer, you are supposed to use those models as intended. Restricting options in kits is one way to achieve it. I consider both the goal and GWs approach to it to be stupid.

 jeff white wrote:
The CCG element has increased as unique models stand in for boosts or other CCG style mechanics. The monopose plastic model business model derives from this angle imho. GW money counters say “ Hey, my kid plays this CCG. He has hundreds of “unique” cards, and those cannot be made at home. He must buy them. What if we made Warhammer more like a card game? Players would have to but new monopose models to stack their figurative decks, like my son does with his CCG cards. Moreover, some of these cards get more valuable due to rarity and powers and we can do that too! Limited releases ... why not sell some models only for a short time, to keep values high? ...”

We are a good bit down that road already. One of the DG codex options is still not available at all anymore since the DI box has been discontinued. Others you can only get in extremely expensive sets - same for Indomitus contents. For AoS see also the models from "Cursed City".

So yeah, I am only partially looking forward to future releases...


except GW's made most things from DI and Indomatus avaliableso that falls flat.

I assume "falling flat" now means complete agreement? Because you just stated the same as me: "most things" are available, not all.

The point remains: the DG Lord of Contagion from DI is still no longer available from GW, some others you can only get in absurdly expensive sets - with the second part being true for Indomitus and CC models too. I fail to see where the "falling flat" part happens.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

I can't help but notice a strange disconnect between different "types" of wargear.

In the case of "standard" wargear, it has to be represented on the model and there's a good chance (depending on what mood GW is in) that it will be limited to what's in the specific model kit.

But then we get Artefacts, which are also wargear and yet don't need to be represented at all.

Is it because Artefacts cost CPs instead of Points?

Clearly not because the Necron codex introduced Cryptek arcana - which is wargear, that you pay for with Points, but which also doesn't have to be represented on the model in any way, shape or form.

I don't get it. Why is it that some wargear never needs to be represented on the models and yet other wargear must always be represented to the point that it gets removed if the corresponding model/kit is replaced or if GW can't be arsed making it or if GW can't be arsed including enough of them in the relevant kit?

 the_scotsman wrote:
The truly bizarre one was leaving Wracks in DE the same not limiting to one liquifier per 5 as in the kit, and leaving Kabs able to take 2x blaster 1x DL, bit limiting the nearly identical melee options on wyches seemingly just to make them irritating to resolve.

I always took 1x net or 3x razors/3x gauntlets just to make it faster to resolve their attacks. The kits are, as all DE kits are, fully compatible with each other, just like marine kits.

And also, minor thing, but gw pretends to be oh so precise but theyre telling me all the chain-flail thingies that come in the wych kit are "Knives." Uh-huh, GW.


Don't forget that the Archon keeps the Venom Blade, Agoniser and Blast Pistol and the Succubus keeps the Splinter Pistol, Blast Pistol and Wych weapons (despite none of those coming with the respective kits), yet the Haemonculus loses every single piece of kit he had.

Oh but Archons don't get to keep PGLs or Blasters, in spite of them being every bit as compatible as the out-of-kit wargear they do get to keep, because GW is a rational company that makes sensible, logical decisions.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Heres a question: assuming "only the kit is legal, all builds from the kit are legal" what is the most absurd kit you can think of to apply the standard to?

In my eyes the new csms take the cake here.

Plasma gun, flamer, melta gun, rocket launcher, heavy bolter would be a legal wargear setup, 10- man with chainswords+bolt pistols would no longer be legal. Only 7/10 models would be allowed to use chainswords.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot




UK

 the_scotsman wrote:
Heres a question: assuming "only the kit is legal, all builds from the kit are legal" what is the most absurd kit you can think of to apply the standard to?

In my eyes the new csms take the cake here.

Plasma gun, flamer, melta gun, rocket launcher, heavy bolter would be a legal wargear setup, 10- man with chainswords+bolt pistols would no longer be legal. Only 7/10 models would be allowed to use chainswords.
The one-boltgun 10 man tactical squad.

For the original question of what GW gains, this has always struck me as a corporate finance stance rather than a hobby enrichment one. The increasingly bizarre stance on "no models no rules" makes literally no sense unless viewed through a corporate finance lens as a means of protecting market share vs 3rd party companies (this being a question that will be raised at every AGM by every investor who cares enough to show up, doubly so for GW post-Chapter House).

What's annoying about this is that the strategy is a self fulfilling prophecy; execs inform investors of a robust strategy to protect market share from 3rd parties, GW profits keep rising, therefore strategy is a success (conveniently ignoring all other factors like popular range refreshes i.e. space marines).

If GW were more interested in competing against 3rd parties instead of trying to play monopoly, you would see GW selling bits instead of applying no model no rules.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 the_scotsman wrote:
Heres a question: assuming "only the kit is legal, all builds from the kit are legal" what is the most absurd kit you can think of to apply the standard to?

In my eyes the new csms take the cake here.

Plasma gun, flamer, melta gun, rocket launcher, heavy bolter would be a legal wargear setup, 10- man with chainswords+bolt pistols would no longer be legal. Only 7/10 models would be allowed to use chainswords.


Just because I’m painting a squad now: Assault Intercessors. If you took all the options for the sarge, and spread them around the squad, they would look like a vanguard vet squad that got drunk and looted the armory. And it’s not like there would be a lot of cross purpose gear just bloating the squad. Just CC toys for everyone.

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Nevelon wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Heres a question: assuming "only the kit is legal, all builds from the kit are legal" what is the most absurd kit you can think of to apply the standard to?

In my eyes the new csms take the cake here.

Plasma gun, flamer, melta gun, rocket launcher, heavy bolter would be a legal wargear setup, 10- man with chainswords+bolt pistols would no longer be legal. Only 7/10 models would be allowed to use chainswords.


Just because I’m painting a squad now: Assault Intercessors. If you took all the options for the sarge, and spread them around the squad, they would look like a vanguard vet squad that got drunk and looted the armory. And it’s not like there would be a lot of cross purpose gear just bloating the squad. Just CC toys for everyone.


"Only options in the box" doesn't usually mean "you can use all possible combinations of bits in the box"; even kits that have gone overboard on instructions == datasheet have kept the sergeant options to the sergeant. You still can't put swords/pistols on Skitarii other than the Alpha, for instance.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

New players who follow the kit instructions can build a usable squad regardless of what additional options exist in the codex. How is stripping those options out any more newbie-friendly?

Seems to me like it's more about undermining third-parties that GW sees as parasites rather than symbiotic entities, with a helpful bonus of making it less important for them to balance wargear if you can't spam just one type of Wych weapon or what-have-you.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Insularum wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Heres a question: assuming "only the kit is legal, all builds from the kit are legal" what is the most absurd kit you can think of to apply the standard to?

In my eyes the new csms take the cake here.

Plasma gun, flamer, melta gun, rocket launcher, heavy bolter would be a legal wargear setup, 10- man with chainswords+bolt pistols would no longer be legal. Only 7/10 models would be allowed to use chainswords.
The one-boltgun 10 man tactical squad.

For the original question of what GW gains, this has always struck me as a corporate finance stance rather than a hobby enrichment one. The increasingly bizarre stance on "no models no rules" makes literally no sense unless viewed through a corporate finance lens as a means of protecting market share vs 3rd party companies (this being a question that will be raised at every AGM by every investor who cares enough to show up, doubly so for GW post-Chapter House).

What's annoying about this is that the strategy is a self fulfilling prophecy; execs inform investors of a robust strategy to protect market share from 3rd parties, GW profits keep rising, therefore strategy is a success (conveniently ignoring all other factors like popular range refreshes i.e. space marines).

If GW were more interested in competing against 3rd parties instead of trying to play monopoly, you would see GW selling bits instead of applying no model no rules.


"No Model No Rules" makes complete and total sense to me. The competitive HQ for an army very often being something GW makes no model for, and therefore steals market share by me going to a 3rd party producer to buy my Baron Sathonyx or my KFF Big Mek on Warbike or my Autarch on Windrider with reaper launcher and Banshee Mask or my Space Marine captain with Thunder Hammer Storm Shield and Jump Pack ( Oh no, wait, they keep leaving him legal, hi there Space Marine Double Standard I didn't see you there!) obviously takes away business from GW. It's gakky, but it's at least comprehensible.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Heres a question: assuming "only the kit is legal, all builds from the kit are legal" what is the most absurd kit you can think of to apply the standard to?

In my eyes the new csms take the cake here.

Plasma gun, flamer, melta gun, rocket launcher, heavy bolter would be a legal wargear setup, 10- man with chainswords+bolt pistols would no longer be legal. Only 7/10 models would be allowed to use chainswords.


Just because I’m painting a squad now: Assault Intercessors. If you took all the options for the sarge, and spread them around the squad, they would look like a vanguard vet squad that got drunk and looted the armory. And it’s not like there would be a lot of cross purpose gear just bloating the squad. Just CC toys for everyone.


"Only options in the box" doesn't usually mean "you can use all possible combinations of bits in the box"; even kits that have gone overboard on instructions == datasheet have kept the sergeant options to the sergeant. You still can't put swords/pistols on Skitarii other than the Alpha, for instance.


Sure, but um....why is it possible for these theoretical brainless newbies to understand "This is the equipment for the sergeant, I shouldnt' build multiple models with the sergeant weapons because then the squad would be illegal" but not possible for them to understand "these are the weapons for the special weapons guy, I shouldn't build multiple guys with special weapons because then the squad will be illegal and I can take up to this many special weapons guys."

I'll be honest, maybe this is just supposed to be a thing that we're supposed to THANK gw for. Like theyve gotten so many complaints of "y you only put one of each weapon in the box!!?!" that theyve decided this is an actual solution that will actually make people complain less. IDK.

Or, actually, come to think of it: Maybe it's a barrier to entry reducer. Maybe they've identified that a new player often comes in, and has a bad game experience playing against some person with fully optimized, fully mono-purpose specialized squads that they're trying to gradually lower that bar, like with how Primaris marines are essentially purpose-built to make TAC lists and it's really actually difficult to buy a primaris marine army without ending up with some antitank and some anti-infantry stuff and some shooty and some melee stuff.

And the reason it's sporadic is that they're trying to find instances where a squad's various weapons can be made to work quasi-cohesively even if mixed. Like how they boosted up the range on the various Skitarii weapons to make taking the sniper weapon not just automatically a silly thing to do with any other weapon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
All of this is just kind of the same as watching a terrible movie for enjoyment and trying to figure out what their intention was, what they were going for with this or that ridiculous, asinine decision, of course. I'm not saying any of this is 5d chess - GW's trying to figure out 1d chess: one line of squares, each player gets a pawn and a king.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/25 18:15:39


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Pretty sure that is three, counting x y and time...

   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




Funny thing, I wanted to make some CSM terminators but didn't like the loadout in the kit. Turns out that the Cataphracti Termies had exactly what I was looking for. The best part is that Cataphracti termies are era correct for CSM so I can use them even fluff wise in an army using normal CSM termie rules. The problem would come in if GW limited terminators to their box set. It would exclude models that would have a perfectly legitimate reason for being in an army from being in that army.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Technically using Cataphractii or Tartaros terminators as Chaos Terminators is a proxy and the only rules for proxying AFAIK in event packs for GW events are that the proxy needs to be the same size and feature the same wargear, both of these are fulfilled by Heresy era pattern armour. The only issue would be if you equipped them with wargear Chaos Terminators don't have access to such as the plasma blaster or volkite charger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/25 23:42:14


 
   
 
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