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Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






The lack of Cults is my guess.

In AoS, Tzeentch Arcanites are particularly tricky, because most of the time they’re just regular citizens going about their business. The whole buff physique thing is achieved through Magic.

The setting is also arguably closer to The Imperium gaining a toe hold in the Eye of Terror, and trying to expand, which makes things more interesting.

AoS also has a tipping point in the form of the Eightpoints/Allpoints, a place where one can access any Realm. It is conceivable a large and determined enough force could seize it back from Archaon, which would fundamentally shift the balance of power, especially given how many of his Goons would be lost in said war.

Likewise, if Chaos can gain access to Azyr, we’d see the opposite shift in the balance of power, as it’s yet another drain on Sigmar’s finite resources.

40K needs Cult activity. Show the canker at the heart of near every world. The consequences of an oppressive regime. The constant drain and distraction upon a near infinite war machine.

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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Cults make even more sense in 40K than they do in AoS, because the Imperium is so awful and oppressive there would definitely be tonnes of disaffected people looking for an alternative.

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Yup. The inescapable consequence of their sheer brutality.

People look for an escape. Cult Leaders do what they do. None of it ever starts off with “eat this baby and you’re in”. It’s always by degrees.

A Slaaneshi Cult might induct members with literal sweet treats, and slowly build their sensory indulgence. It might be “you look tired, try this, it’ll perk you up” and lead to hopeless addiction.

A Khornate Cult might start with self defence classes, to help you fend off bullies and thieves, and end up with an armed uprising against the True Bullies and Thieves, the members so lost in bloodlust that everyone is now the bullies and thieves.

Nurgle? Well, his blessing is the cure of the disease - or at least relieving the symptoms one way or another.

And so on and so forth. Whatever your weakness, someone on the pantheon will have the key to exploiting it.

Show that. Show the constant and unavoidable risk. Demonstrate that the Cults needn’t take over a world. Just disrupt it, cutting power, poisoning the well, salting the Earth, detonating ammo dumps etc.

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Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Gert wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.

Corsairs and R&H were still around in 8th. They might have been utter trash but they didn't get Legended until 9th.


Nope. Corsairs were squatted in 8th. Their entire codex was reduced to a whole 2 units (meaning they couldn't even form a legal army without allying).

I was under the impression that R&H had been squatted long before 9th. If not, I congratulate R&H players on their foresight by discussing the squatting of their army prior to 9th's release.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






I mean….the Inquisition. It exists because of Cult Activity.

Why send in a Chaos Fleet to burn a world, when you can just support a Cult to the point the Imperium does the job for you with a cheeky Exterminatus?

Engender mistrust in the opposing army, and you’ve compromised their ability to effectively wage war. Keep your foe side-eyeing each other and looking over their shoulder.

Compromise just one person in a squad or platoon, and whilst they’re resting, set off a few frag grenades in the billet. Before you know it, the entire Regiment is under investigation either by the Commisariat, or The Inquisition. With a high chance some of the Command Staff will end up executed for incompetence.

Just the merest hint of Chaos Infiltration, and chances are your enemy will do far more harm to themselves than you could ever hope to.

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in au
Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend




Australia

There's a gulf between Chaos as they are and Chaos as they are presented. Chaos isn't a joke in 40k, they're just presented extraordinarily poorly. The destruction of Cadia/birth of the Great Rift & other events of that kind are all meant to be big wins for the baddies/huge obstacles for the goodies but woeful writing means that they don't feel as such when you read about them in a book.

It's like when you're told that the Imperium is losing its grasp of technology and then suddenly there are a zillion supermegamarines running around with floating tanks and better armour/weapons than anything oldmarines had in their history. Some books tell us that Guilliman is just racing around trying to put fires out but that's certainly not how it appears when the focus revolves around his victories. Telling us one thing and showing us another.

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


I tend to think of 'huge wins' involving tangible gains for the winner or tangible losses for the loser, and can think of plenty of things that would fit that bill short of blowing up the entire setting.

Until GW shows that losing Cadia and half the Imperium actually means something- Space Marine chapters wiped out, STCs lost, weapons or equipment that can no longer be constructed, planets in the remaining Imperium lost for lack of manpower, growing resentment against Guilliman for failing to safeguard the Imperium, loss of quality among the Astra Militarum, Chaos leveraging their foothold to field bigger and better things, Chaos seizing more territory or forcing back the Indomitus crusade, Cadians- then yeah I don't see it as a 'huge win' for Chaos. How could it be, when GW is bending over backwards to tell you that don't worry, Cadians are doing fine elsewhere, Primaris are coming to the rescue of all the beleaguered planets, Cawl's rolling out all the new super-tech, and everything's going to be okay? It's not dire straits if every step back comes with two steps forward.

What we're being told (Chaos is triumphant, the Imperium is in shambles) and what we're being shown (Primaris are crusading to save the galaxy, Guilliman is reforming the Imperium, Cawl is making major advances in technology) are completely incongruous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 22:32:13


   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Looking at it as a mildly interested outsider, the theme of new-40K seems to me to be the Imperium Resurgent, which is not a bad theme really if you want to shake up the setting. I definitely don't really get the impression they're under pressure or collapsing.

The fact that the stagnation of the Imperium, one of it's strongest themes, has been replaced by innovation and a Primarch has returned to lead the Imperium is a huge deal, and fundamentally changes the setting from one about a long, self inflicted defeat, into a story of hope and regeneration.

It doesn't have to be bad that that's what's going on, though I find the implementation lacking personally and generally find it less interesting than the previous set up.

But it certainly weakens the theme of the Imperium being on the edge of collapse.

   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

For one thing Chaos won the game in Warhammer and....was not actually very pleased.....they had to find a new playground and now we have the Mortal Realms - likely made by Chaos as well.

In 40k again if Chaos wins the game is over.....if they do just enough to let the mortals think they have a chance....and therefore the game carries on both against the mortals and each other.

The Imperium is flailing about, trying to patch things up with the primaris and the crusades.....its not really working as the novels and campaign lore states - one step forward, two backwards, the dam is still leaking everywhere but not quite breaking.....which is just as the Chaos gods like it.....they don't need to do anything more or give their minions any more power.


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






AoS is definitely a setting of hope, rather than trying to stave off the inevitable for as long as possible.

Moving into 3rd, we’re seeing more and more things happen and stay happened. The Necroquake is one of them. Sure it was eventually ended, but it’s impact remains.

It’s also had the benefit of releases being closely tied to the ongoing narrative, as the wars reach ever further into the Realms.

It’s come a hell of a long way since the beginning, and for me at least it’s been a real treat to follow it’s evolution.

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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I've gone from really disliking AoS to being interested in it but wanting it to really GO for it and be the mad gonzo setting it wants to be.

But I think 40K is about hope now too.

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Not sure if 40k is about hope so much as "if this is going to be the end, then I would have us make such and end... as to be worthy of rememberance"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





Tyel wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.
Things revert back to the status quo, because by necessity the game has to if you want all of your factions to continue to exist and not have players quit / get mad. This is why for the longest time 40k was a setting rather than a storyline, it's also why I think advancing the story is a mistake. Every action essentially gets re-contextualized because any tangible difference outside of peripheral story telling needs to remain the same. You're never going to feel the change in the setting in the game, because that has vastly negative implications. Look at the Eldar and their god Ynnead. Same exact thing. Chaos got the biggest win it possibly could inside the setting with those parameters in place.

And furthermore, the fall of cadia has had huge implications on the lore and the story. To argue anything else is just not true.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/03 23:36:22


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Sledgehammer wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.
Things revert back to the status quo, because by necessity the game has to if you want all of your factions to continue to exist and not have players quit / get mad. This is why for the longest time 40k was a setting rather than a storyline, it's also why I think advancing the story is a mistake. Every action essentially gets re-contextualized because any tangible difference outside of peripheral story telling needs to remain the same. You're never going to feel the change in the setting in the game, because that has vastly negative implications. Look at the Eldar and their god Ynnead. Same exact thing. Chaos got the biggest win it possibly could inside the setting with those parameters in place.


I mean there's plenty of room for intreasting stories and big battles to be told, even if things are otherwise stalemated.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





BrianDavion wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.
Things revert back to the status quo, because by necessity the game has to if you want all of your factions to continue to exist and not have players quit / get mad. This is why for the longest time 40k was a setting rather than a storyline, it's also why I think advancing the story is a mistake. Every action essentially gets re-contextualized because any tangible difference outside of peripheral story telling needs to remain the same. You're never going to feel the change in the setting in the game, because that has vastly negative implications. Look at the Eldar and their god Ynnead. Same exact thing. Chaos got the biggest win it possibly could inside the setting with those parameters in place.


I mean there's plenty of room for intreasting stories and big battles to be told, even if things are otherwise stalemated.
Which is what forgeworld did with their awesome campaigns!
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift. In no way shape or form was cadia anything but a loss for the imperium. Any losses sustained by chaos will always be replenished because chaos is inherently not bound by the material necessities of reality. The same cannot be said for the imperium, or the pylons. Also, ask a guard player how they feel when the one regiment that has received love by GW gets their howeworld blown up.

We're told that. We're never shown that in any meaningful way. The Imperium Nihilus has been falling...and somehow still is there, as Primarines kick ass of just about anything they meet and are pretty much as effective as the Great Crusade was.
   
Made in au
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle





 Da Boss wrote:
The fact that the stagnation of the Imperium, one of it's strongest themes, has been replaced by innovation and a Primarch has returned to lead the Imperium is a huge deal, and fundamentally changes the setting from one about a long, self inflicted defeat, into a story of hope and regeneration.


This goes to the heart of the division in my mind:

A Loyalist Primarch rises. Despite losing half the galaxy apparently, the Imperium is now in the best place its ever been! New tech, new marines, new hope!

A Traitor Primarch rises. Sgt. Johnny Space Marine's chainsword go brrr. Plan foiled by day's end!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 01:39:59


Death Guard: 6000pts
Sisters of Battle: 1750pts 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Cronch wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift. In no way shape or form was cadia anything but a loss for the imperium. Any losses sustained by chaos will always be replenished because chaos is inherently not bound by the material necessities of reality. The same cannot be said for the imperium, or the pylons. Also, ask a guard player how they feel when the one regiment that has received love by GW gets their howeworld blown up.

We're told that. We're never shown that in any meaningful way. The Imperium Nihilus has been falling...and somehow still is there, as Primarines kick ass of just about anything they meet and are pretty much as effective as the Great Crusade was.




except that we rarely get a look at Imperium Nihlus. when we do the imagine is pretty clear, small islands of stability seperated by a sea of chaos.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





Becaise GW can't write 40k Chaos as anything but a cartoon supervillain. Chaos isn WHFB is like Hannibal Lector compared to 40k's Power Ranger's rubber suit of the week.


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




It’s rather depressing to read about chaos, they need worlds ally to them that are stable I think to throw the setting off ballance a bit. All the gods have positive aspects that a church or temple structure could follow.
And see there chaos marines as angels and support them against a regime that caused them harm, even if in the future the worlds will all potentially fall.
It seems like GW just writes chaos to allways be a bit of a failure and then gets confused why there narrative is flat when they win.

Even demons should be cunning enough to see a world created to exalt there masters is worth preservation.
Even if behind closed doors they are twisted away from modern human ideals.

When a sacrifice can actually show real results, or demon possessed bring power and prosperity I can see it being easy to push positives as scary as that sounds to us.
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I mean….the Inquisition. It exists because of Cult Activity.

Why send in a Chaos Fleet to burn a world, when you can just support a Cult to the point the Imperium does the job for you with a cheeky Exterminatus?
Spoiler:


Engender mistrust in the opposing army, and you’ve compromised their ability to effectively wage war. Keep your foe side-eyeing each other and looking over their shoulder.

Compromise just one person in a squad or platoon, and whilst they’re resting, set off a few frag grenades in the billet. Before you know it, the entire Regiment is under investigation either by the Commisariat, or The Inquisition. With a high chance some of the Command Staff will end up executed for incompetence.


Just the merest hint of Chaos Infiltration, and chances are your enemy will do far more harm to themselves than you could ever hope to.

This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
Spoiler:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


I tend to think of 'huge wins' involving tangible gains for the winner or tangible losses for the loser, and can think of plenty of things that would fit that bill short of blowing up the entire setting.

Until GW shows that losing Cadia and half the Imperium actually means something- Space Marine chapters wiped out, STCs lost, weapons or equipment that can no longer be constructed, planets in the remaining Imperium lost for lack of manpower, growing resentment against Guilliman for failing to safeguard the Imperium, loss of quality among the Astra Militarum, Chaos leveraging their foothold to field bigger and better things, Chaos seizing more territory or forcing back the Indomitus crusade, Cadians- then yeah I don't see it as a 'huge win' for Chaos. How could it be, when GW is bending over backwards to tell you that don't worry, Cadians are doing fine elsewhere, Primaris are coming to the rescue of all the beleaguered planets, Cawl's rolling out all the new super-tech, and everything's going to be okay? It's not dire straits if every step back comes with two steps forward.

What we're being told (Chaos is triumphant, the Imperium is in shambles) and what we're being shown (Primaris are crusading to save the galaxy, Guilliman is reforming the Imperium, Cawl is making major advances in technology) are completely incongruous.

So true. Da Boss makes a similar point. Insightful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 04:24:32


   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





They should just drop space Marines. They're clearly a failed idea, and the setting would be better with them completely removed
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Since the fluff is made to support a tabletop game I'd say Chaos and its strongholds and worlds might get a look at if GW releases a Renegades and Heretics Codex. We only have CSM and Daemons now, the latter flooding the whole galaxy now without needing warpstorms anymore and the former are running around building their small empires (which are really small, sadly, like those three (3!) stars the Death Guard conquered in a supposedly huge Invasion).
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Apple fox wrote:
It’s rather depressing to read about chaos, they need worlds ally to them that are stable I think to throw the setting off ballance a bit. All the gods have positive aspects that a church or temple structure could follow.
And see there chaos marines as angels and support them against a regime that caused them harm, even if in the future the worlds will all potentially fall.
It seems like GW just writes chaos to allways be a bit of a failure and then gets confused why there narrative is flat when they win.

Even demons should be cunning enough to see a world created to exalt there masters is worth preservation.
Even if behind closed doors they are twisted away from modern human ideals.

When a sacrifice can actually show real results, or demon possessed bring power and prosperity I can see it being easy to push positives as scary as that sounds to us.


stable chaos worlds........ ok...


Joke aside they have those. there are tons of dark mech forge worlds, and you ever seen actual empire building in the post rift era. things like the Death Guards plague worlds etc.


Oddly, IMHO the biggest problem is that because the Imperium is ALWAYS on the defensive we learn so little about the "home" of chaos.

we can name proably hundreds of important imperial worlds, if only because they've been defended so often. for tenth edition a good option for GW would be to have the inital combat focus on marines vs chaos and have it be an indomatus strike on a chaos "mini empire" let the IoM LOSE that fight. (with the full implication that the Imperium will be back for "conflict 2, space marine boogaloo") this'd achomplish a few things.

this pocket empire would almost certainly have been conquered as a result of the great rift (and the beauty of the rift messing things up is it could have been chaos for hundreds or even thousands of years as the locals see things) so we'd see some loss initally. it'd do some good "world buidling" for chaos. and it'd show that the Indomatus crusade isn't able to reconquer EVERYTHING

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/04 05:43:33


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Hard-Wired Sentinel Pilot





Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...

The grim dark, hopeless feel of the setting is one of 40K's hallmarks. It's been in place since day one, and is a major selling point. In recent years, I think this is slowly changing and we're starting to lose some of the tone in an attempt to utilise Imperial/Astartes fan service.

In a more general example, a Space Marine chapter consists of what? Roughly 1000 marines? Yet however many pyrrhic victories are suffered, or the scale of a conflict, we never get a sense that this tiny amount of Astartes (given the scale) is dangerous impacted at all. Surely we should be seeing them nigh wiped out on a regular basis, if not for plot armour.

The Imperium are seen as the 'good guys' - the Space Marines especially. I can see nothing in the lore of the setting changing for the better while that appears to be what the larger part of the community wants.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/04 08:29:53


 
   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





 StrayIight wrote:
Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...


On Godblight:

Spoiler:
I honestly was expecting some cruel twist until the very end. Like, the way the Militant Apostolic was described as giving saner characters the creeps, having "a strange light in his eyes", being unaffected by Nurgle's diseases etc, I honestly thought he was being used as a puppet by the Changer of Ways in his game of Chaos Chess against Nurgle. But as it turns out, he was literally protected and guided by the Emperor? And Guilliman was also literally saved from certain death by Ku'gath's super Ebola and was capable of physically hurting Nurgle himself because he was guided by the Emperor? I am still not sure if I got everything straight.
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





Rihgu wrote:
This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Esmer wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...


On Godblight:

Spoiler:
I honestly was expecting some cruel twist until the very end. Like, the way the Militant Apostolic was described as giving saner characters the creeps, having "a strange light in his eyes", being unaffected by Nurgle's diseases etc, I honestly thought he was being used as a puppet by the Changer of Ways in his game of Chaos Chess against Nurgle. But as it turns out, he was literally protected and guided by the Emperor? And Guilliman was also literally saved from certain death by Ku'gath's super Ebola and was capable of physically hurting Nurgle himself because he was guided by the Emperor? I am still not sure if I got everything straight.


maybe but it seems to me the idea was to tie into psykic awakening. IIRC the book ends on the note that
Spoiler:
the emperor is seemingly becoming more active, but he's clearly not the same entity he was before his enthronement and his becoming more active may not even be a GOOD THING for the Imperium's current leadership

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
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