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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Flinty wrote:
Again, going back to the general knowledge of the average Imperial citizen. If they can even see the sky, then information control works.

"What is that weird light in the sky?"

"Stop asking questions or you'll get shot in both lungs"


I believe on Vigilus, there was a law in effect that forbade people from looking up at the sky. This backfired when no one noticed that the Thousand Sons were invading.
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

Lots of great responses and I would have to agree with the consensus here, where Imperium's ignorance is rife in every strata of imperial society.

But the ignorance on demons always struck me as odd. This is really a fantasy setting in space. Everyone knows there are psykers and witches and sorcerers who weird stuff. Why are demons too much? And we have an ecclesiarchy that is constantly warning fearmongering the populace against the these characters and their cults and to protect their souls. But protect their souls against what? What is damnation? If the warp is hell and the warp is real, then so are demons.

It just seems overly difficult to rant on about fire and brimstone and then have to backpedal when this talk of evil things becomes a reality. I guess the church could say 'they're just a story to scare children' when it's convenient. Modern churches quite easily jump between describing their text as allegory and literal truth so I imagine the ecclesiarchy could too.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Pretty much yeah. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't know the Daemons they're preaching about are actually real but metaphors are fun and then on the off chance that people do see Daemons, hey look the priest was right better go do more Church.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




 StewMan Group wrote:
Love the idea of them being super ignorant. Especially in older texts that the imperial citizens (including Guard) were forbidden the knowledge of chaos, and if a world or regiment were to find out it would be enough to constitute a good ol’ exterimatus


It's much harder to cover up Chaos after the rift, but I expect the Grey Knights and Inquisition to be killing anyone with any knowledge of daemons right up until its creation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 00:03:57


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






You're not praying hard enough for your Tank to work Guardsman, pray harder or its summary execution for the whole crew!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 00:01:02


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Part of this is why I dislike certain directions the lore has been taken over the years. There was a time when it was said so much was meant to be lost to the point what the Imperium thought and believed barely resembled the actuality, where things had been replaced by half-truths and superstitions...and then GW seems to basically just went "Na what they believe was true" with that sort of thing without more to it. The Imperium believes the Emperor is a god? Details about the Primarchs and the Horus Heresy? Faith and the effects of it? The differences between DAOT (in terms of styles and such) and the current Imperium? I feel like those are all aspects where it's gone from the Imperium being ignorant and clueless with what the actual situation was, to the lore now just being those implied 'wrong' interpretations of the Imperium having been taken at face value and turned into the reality of it.

The Emperor is pretty much a god or at least up there in terms of power, not just mistakenly worshiped as one when there was no reason to. Their beliefs and superstitions regarding faith and the effects of it end up manifesting in reality, not just false hope and lies. The Primarchs ended up being how the Space Marines viewed them currently, rather than being figures of myth and legend exaggerated greatly. Machine Spirits ended up being actual things common in various technology (outside of certain things like Titans and rare vehicles and ships), not just the result of ignorance and ritual. A lot of the technology the Imperium uses is said to be actual technology designs from the Dark Age as it was, not so much them being a case of STC designs having been corrupted and fragmented over the millenia to the point that what the Imperium has is a poor imitation of a copy of a copy of a copy that barely resembles what it should be (E.g. Knight suits as they are are meant to be from then, so the Imperiums suits aren't poor imitations of DAOT suits, they just are DOAT suits) that has further been changed by the Imperiums own views and interpretations and dogma.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/12 16:15:10


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The Emperor did a load of God-like things for a guy who said he wasn't a God.
Oh yeah, let me just fix this entire Knight with a touch of my hand or speak directly into your soul or defeat some of the greatest enemies of Mankind with a single blow.
The Imperium has nowhere reached the technological heights of the DAoT and never will due to the superstitions of the Mechanicus. Of course making murder robots that you can't control isn't great so at least the Imperium is smart in some areas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 16:12:30


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Gert wrote:
The Emperor did a load of God-like things for a guy who said he wasn't a God.
Oh yeah, let me just fix this entire Knight with a touch of my hand or speak directly into your soul or defeat some of the greatest enemies of Mankind with a single blow.
The Imperium has nowhere reached the technological heights of the DAoT and never will due to the superstitions of the Mechanicus. Of course making murder robots that you can't control isn't great so at least the Imperium is smart in some areas.


This is why I vastly preferred what was the (implied) original framework of 40k: That belief in something had power to make it that thing even if it originally wasn't that.

As an example, Slaanesh was basically born when enough eldar became so obsessed with losing themselves in experiences and excess that a giant god that absorbs eldar souls and overwhelms them with experiences and excess appeared.

In the context of that view of 40k, it almost doesn't matter who the emperor *actually* was, just what people at the present moment of the setting *believed* him to be. Who is that actually up there on that throne? Doesn't actually matter. What matters is that enough people believe in the emperor's light that a warp entity that thinks of itself as "The Emperor" exists and does the things people believe in..

The primarchs, the miracles, the SoB and Custodes' faith-based powers, could all still exist, but you wouldn't have to try and keep a straight face while explaining that a literal shiny gold god man literally hand-crafted a dude with fething wings named Angelblood Mcbloodersby Angelson and a really angry guy named Angron and was like 'yes, this is a good plan, a good good plan to save the galaxy and I am very smart.'

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Personally I like that the ignorance or knowledge of events from the Heresey are so varied. Same with how technology may be midly understood on one world and be seen as magic on another world where they are running imperial knights off steam power (as in the book titandeath). One planet may be a bastion of the administratum where they value knowledge and history. Every bit of the heresey (as much as inquisition is willing to have in open records) may be common knowledge and taught in schools/ museums with the appropriate propoganda and redactions of course. Meanwhile another world might be a agricultural world where they have zero knowledge beyond they are part of the empire, they pay thier taxes and get things like fuel and protection from aliens in return. This seems to be my impression from books anyway where some planets know a lot but others are completely ignorant.

I would imagine the knowledge of psychers and possibly even to some extent knowledge of the warp would vary by planet. on oen of those agricultural worlds with such a small population likely the planetary governor, imperial clergy and maybe some planetary guard troops might understand what to look for while most citizens are kept ignorant. Meanwhile on a Hive world a lot of people would likely know what to look for in psychers as well as a bounty system in place should wne be captured and turned over.

10000 points 7000
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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 G00fySmiley wrote:
Personally I like that the ignorance or knowledge of events from the Heresey are so varied. Same with how technology may be midly understood on one world and be seen as magic on another world where they are running imperial knights off steam power (as in the book titandeath). One planet may be a bastion of the administratum where they value knowledge and history. Every bit of the heresey (as much as inquisition is willing to have in open records) may be common knowledge and taught in schools/ museums with the appropriate propoganda and redactions of course. Meanwhile another world might be a agricultural world where they have zero knowledge beyond they are part of the empire, they pay thier taxes and get things like fuel and protection from aliens in return. This seems to be my impression from books anyway where some planets know a lot but others are completely ignorant.

I would imagine the knowledge of psychers and possibly even to some extent knowledge of the warp would vary by planet. on oen of those agricultural worlds with such a small population likely the planetary governor, imperial clergy and maybe some planetary guard troops might understand what to look for while most citizens are kept ignorant. Meanwhile on a Hive world a lot of people would likely know what to look for in psychers as well as a bounty system in place should wne be captured and turned over.


The only problem I have with the current lore as presented is that the 'real' events of the horus heresy are so colossally juvenile and stupid that it's *almost* like they were put into the setting originally as a bit of dramatic irony to demonstrate the ignorance of the people in the 41st millenium and maybe to draw a parallel with stories of medieval saints who were believed to get beheaded and still preach for two weeks, or get fed to lions and the lions refuse to eat them, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it's the "Star Wars Prequel Effect" basically.

Yep, turns out the "Clone Wars" mysteriously referred to was this one time when the one guy who Luke was talking to about them ended up on a water world of giraffe people who were like 'sup bro your buddy totes called us twenty years ago and ordered up like a billion clone soldiers, so uh...here you go I guess" and then he and the jedi did a big war with all these clone guys against a whole bunch of robots, and every single character and person and event that you know from the original films turned out to be super important and relevant in the prequel stories, go figure!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/12 16:50:11


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

One more thing I'd like to bring up is the inquisition. I vaguely remember reading one book where every sense on a battleship was blacked because an inquisitor ship was moving through the system. But then the Eisenhorn/Ravenor describes the inquisition having public offices. Hell, Ravenor published books in his own name! So it seems there's some broad interpretation in exactly how secret the Imperium's secret police really are.

So how do you like the inquisition? Are they just a story to scare misbehaving young children or is there an ][ over every office building?

I personally like the idea of a public face. Something to remind those in power that someone is always watching. But perhaps to the everyday person, they're almost a story. something that happens to other people. I also like the idea of the inquisition being similar to their historical counterparts. Serving as something of an arbitrator or voice of authority to keep civil war from breaking out when charges of heretic start getting thrown around.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Inquisition cannot be so utterly secret that nobody has heard of them, otherwise the Inquisitor would get blank confused looks when the Inquisitorial rosette is brandished. It needs to be known enough so that people can know what an Inquisitor can demand and enough to fear it.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Its like the KGB, you know they're there and you've heard the horror stories but as long as you stay loyal you don't get a visit.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 LumenPraebeo wrote:

So I like my IoM to be very capable and have good reasoning and understanding; and vice versa for all its enemies.


The IoM is explicitly anti-science, so their reasoning is suspect at best. And the lack of understanding follows.
   
 
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