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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sweden

 Irbis wrote:
 Kall3m0n wrote:
3 MW is deterministically killing 1.5 new-codex-marines, but it's killing 0-3 old-codex-marines.

This makes no sense. 3 MW were most likely to kill 2 DG in old system. So, MORE than in new. Add to that non-insignificant probability you will lose 3, small one you will lose 1 (so, as much as in new system), and tiny you will lose 0. How the hell tiny probability you will lose equal or less and big one you will lose way more = less durable?

Also, 5 mortal wounds wiped out old MSU DG squad pretty much guaranteed while it won't even kill half of new one. 5 hits with 2 damage weapon also pretty much wiped old squad out save for a very lucky roll while it again, fails to kill even half of new one with worst rolls possible. "Die way faster"? Wot?


That might have been your experience with DG, but that is not my experience. In my experience, we die faster now, especially to MW's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Oh, -1 DMG is totally worse than FNP for all the vehicles, but those didn't get extra wounds like all the infantry did.


I totally agree. Though, the MBH's did get a wound.
But yeah, our vehicles dies pretty damn fast nowadays. That being said, I don't play with PBC's, but then again, what makes them so durable is T8 in combination with -1D.
In the old codex, I could tanka whole army's shooting with a single Bloat Drone and still survive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/17 03:53:23


Nurgle protects. Kinda.
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Norway.

We pay premium point cost to be slow and supposedly durable, only to have T5 and a weak disgustingly resilient that don't work in the magic phase.
While at the same time others claim to have "glass cannon" characters and units with 3+ 4++ save And more wound than us.

Sadly I personally feel we have become more like "just another space marine chapter" than a unique army with the new book.

-Wibe. 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






My experience against Death Guard is that I dont like playing against them.

-1 damage is crippling to my Custodes.

I literally have to pray my opponent doesnt realize how crap my damage output is against him and plays defense.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Eihnlazer wrote:
My experience against Death Guard is that I dont like playing against them.

-1 damage is crippling to my Custodes.

I literally have to pray my opponent doesnt realize how crap my damage output is against him and plays defense.


So you're always looking for new opponents since after 1 game the cat's out of the bag?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Wibe wrote:
We pay premium point cost to be slow and supposedly durable, only to have T5 and a weak disgustingly resilient that don't work in the magic phase.
While at the same time others claim to have "glass cannon" characters and units with 3+ 4++ save And more wound than us.

Sadly I personally feel we have become more like "just another space marine chapter" than a unique army with the new book.


This is really not my experience playing against it. They feel much more distinctively death guard than they ever have done. They are more durable than before and they feel like deadly trench fighters. A really well thought out book.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




I think some of the feeling that PM's are weaker now is the fact they have been around for a while. I remember the old 5th edition FNP. It worked better vs the things it needed to. It worked so well they nerfed it.

And from those old rules come legendary tales of PM's tanking a armies worth of bolter rounds in a single turn (which did happen at times). I have not played with or against the new DR so I cannot comment on its ingame effects. But I can say (from my limited perspective ) it is not as fun and not as swingy and certainly is not able to produce the stuff of legends.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/19 06:54:08


 
   
Made in gb
Smokin' Skorcha Driver




London UK

I have been playing a lot lately, I find that the books central method of playing is slow durable and deliberate but I find this doesn't play into scoring 9th secondaries very well. My go to secondaries are stranglehold and STS and then either no prisoners, assasinate or bring it down. I've tried grind and it doesn't work for DG very well. I find that I want to stand on objectives and kill off other objectives but always struggle at the kill part. Like most marine players I've taken on 2 double volkite contemptors and without them I find it hard to function.

I loved running plaguemarines but I find that their killing power is all in combat without an adequate delivery system to get them there and when they walk they die too easily to small arms fire. This is not a comment on whether they are better than they were, they obviously are, but this is a cooment on the fact that 9th appears to have gotten more deadly and plaguemarines aren't good enough. They need an invulnerable. I find as the game moves on with newer dexes we are penalised for paying points for durability that most armies seem to also have but we lack the mobility and damage output to justify these points that all the newer armies really have. We need a refresh as codex creep is gradually invalidating us to a mono build of Mortarion and hope they can't deal which is what we are seeing in tournaments.

In casual games though I find that I'm beaten far too easily by codexes newer than us and win far too easliy to older codexes. The balance isn't right.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Nithaniel wrote:
I have been playing a lot lately, I find that the books central method of playing is slow durable and deliberate but I find this doesn't play into scoring 9th secondaries very well. My go to secondaries are stranglehold and STS and then either no prisoners, assasinate or bring it down. I've tried grind and it doesn't work for DG very well. I find that I want to stand on objectives and kill off other objectives but always struggle at the kill part. Like most marine players I've taken on 2 double volkite contemptors and without them I find it hard to function.

I loved running plaguemarines but I find that their killing power is all in combat without an adequate delivery system to get them there and when they walk they die too easily to small arms fire. This is not a comment on whether they are better than they were, they obviously are, but this is a cooment on the fact that 9th appears to have gotten more deadly and plaguemarines aren't good enough. They need an invulnerable. I find as the game moves on with newer dexes we are penalised for paying points for durability that most armies seem to also have but we lack the mobility and damage output to justify these points that all the newer armies really have. We need a refresh as codex creep is gradually invalidating us to a mono build of Mortarion and hope they can't deal which is what we are seeing in tournaments.

In casual games though I find that I'm beaten far too easily by codexes newer than us and win far too easliy to older codexes. The balance isn't right.


I'm confused.
You say you struggle to win/do damage - yet you somehow are still winning too easily vs older Codexes (wich would be everything save for Drukari, SoB, AdMech).
???
   
Made in gb
Sinister Chaos Marine




To me the last line of their post clearly reads that they play casual games vs old codexes which they can win, but in more competitive play described in the earlier paragraphs they mainly meet new codexes where they struggle to win/do damage.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




I loved running plaguemarines but I find that their killing power is all in combat without an adequate delivery system to get them there and when they walk they die too easily to small arms fire.


This part is true and just classic Gdubs. "We're going to make this thing really powerful in CC. To balance this, we will make it nigh impossible to GET to CC." See Mutilators. lol

I have this issue as well, and have found that for me, the only ways to deal with it are to either use the CC ability as a "threat" - For example, camping them on a crucial objective knowing they will be hard to shoot off the objective, but also nearly guaranteeing there will not be a charge. OR - simply building the entire battle plan around getting one or two squads into CC. Which, incidentally is another Gdubs Chaos Trope. Loyalist armies tend to be more flexible. CSM in general tend to have more potential options, but you have to go all-in on one path in order to have any success.




Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

DG have any way to re-roll charges, get bonuses to the charge range, pr Advance + charge?
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





None at all sadly. This is why I've stopped deep striking my terminators, relying on a roll of 9 is too big a gamble.

I agree that plague marines can be real blenders in melee, but getting there is the problem. My best hope is that my opponent doesn't realise how dangerous they are and focuses on my other units.
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





Deepstriking terminators is fine if you don't rely on an immediate charge. DS them behind some cover, then have them march up a ways in the next turn.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





In my opinion, they suck balls.

One reason, they nerfed disgustingly resilient. I used to run a Daemon Engine list. Sure I get a better chance to hit but that 5+ shrug used to have really made them fun to use.

Add to that they hikes up the points for Blight Haulers and so forth - they simply nerfed them too hard. PBC is the exception - that thing losing DR wasn't such an issue given it's stats, but if you compare the others to an ATV for example - they're massively overcosted especially with the huge buffs to anti-tank weaponry.

Other than that, the Terminators became useful and,...blah blah blah. I collected that army to run Daemon Engines and they sucked the fun out of it.
   
Made in gb
Sinister Chaos Marine




Not just Death Guard related, but it is one of their current unit choices. Here is a game for you where I've obsfucated slightly so you hopefully don't realise which unit it is until afterwards. There is a vehicle (base cost 140 points) with four gun choices, one costs 10 points, one costs 20 points, two cost 30 points, try to guess which are which from the statlines:

Gun1: Range 24" Heavy 12 S7 AP1 D1.
Gun2: Range 36" Heavy 12 S5 AP1 D2.
Gun3: Range 45" Heavy 16 S6 AP0 D2 (also wound rolls of 6 give a mortal on top of normal damage)
Gun4: Range 48" Heavy 8 S7 AP1 D2.

Spoiler:

Gun1: 20 points. Max damage output 12.
Gun2: 30 points. Max damage output 24.
Gun3: 10 points. Max damage output 32 (ignoring the 16 mortals it could also do).
Gun4: 30 points. Max damage output 16.
Contemptor dreads taking two of certain similar gun options. I wonder why we only see the 10 point gun versions on the table...
This kind of thing really bothers me.

Anyone guess right?
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

To make it more clear how far each weapon option is apart from the others, the damage against a T7 3+ vehicle and a Marine:

Gun1: 2.00 / 2.67
Gun2: 2.67 / 5.33
Gun3: 4.15 / 6.52
Gun4: 2.67 / 3.56

The extra mortal wounds are pushing Volkite guns far ahead and make it usable against all kinds of targets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/24 08:24:13


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think thet overall the codex is fine and does a good job at matching the DG fluff. The army is durable (even it doesn’t always feel that way in the kill fest environment) and also hits extremely hard up close. You don’t want to get near DG in game, and that matches up with their fluff perfectively. However, there are 2 main issues I have with the book.

1) The army playstyle matches the fluff a bit too well. Really the issue is all our good units fit the profile of “good in melee” but no unit is that good at mid range, or long range firepower. Bottlers just don’t do enough, even with “plague round” synergies. We need ways to get AP on our mid range firepower outside of ferric blight. Plasma and Blight launchers are also not good enough. Blighthaulers are overpriced, all the “traditional” chaos vehicles are fragile and overpriced. And don’t get me started on plague spitters. So we are left with foulblightspawn using overwhelming generosity as our only effective mid range firepower. And for long range we have plagueburst crawlers and a FW dreadnought. Neither of which are not bad but also not world burners either. While I can understand we shouldn’t be good at everything it really limits our options to be purely a slow melee army.

2) Plague marines
They’re not good enough. People say they are fine in less competitive games, but every person I know who sticks to deathguard always slowly replaces PM with other units. I know they aren’t doing this because they don’t like the models, it’s because their rules suck. All their old offensive tricks got replaced with 2w and the ability to be a glasscannon melee unit if you upgrade them to be so. The problem is they are worse than other units in both roles. Why would I want a slow, fragile, melee PM unit when I can have a fast, flying, mower drone, or durable deathshroud unit? And why would I want a barebones objective holder unit when I can take excellent poxwalkers instead (20 poxwalkers are much better than 5 PM). These guys always underperform if your opponent knows how fragile they actually are.
   
 
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