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stroller wrote:
Sorry this continues in a negative fashion, but...

"But I do that, in the product description on the website."

..no, you don't. This from the blurb on skelly bowmen:

"This listing is for licensed prints of the Skeleton warriors from Txarli factory's armies of the sands kickstarter. This listing is for skeleton warriors wielding bows

No bases are included. Scenic bases are available printed in resin as packs. Models are printed in high quality resin.

FOR EVERY 20 MINIATURES, 3 of those figures will be a command group. If you do not want command, please state as such in your order notes or send us an email.

Models printed and sold under license from Txarli Factory"

No scale unless I'm being REALLY dumb (possible). No bases... that word "no" again... give me a link to add a bases pack right there and then.

OK I accept that the option of NOT having command figures is a good one, but you phrase it as something else for ME to do...

Not negative at all. I'll make a pass through our product listing and update them for scale.

Needing to request command/no command is a limitation of our back end system. I can look into more drop downs but I initially figured that would be confusing

Thanks

stroller wrote:
Thanks

Sure thing.

Looking at the site, there is a bit of dead space on the sides. You could look into maybe adding a sidebar like many sites have. I know Games Workshop and Ebay make use of them, and other miniature sites do as well. It takes a similar role as the top bar of course but it could be helpful. It could also give more subfolders in it without creating a mess like with a top bar - say Fantasy Miniatures -> Peculiar -> Holy Roman Empire Humans -> Ogres. It might be helpful to even split some of the headings a bit, as Ogres under the Human banner doesn't make the best sense to me, even if it was part of their bundle set. Maybe split it to HRE Humans and HRE Ogres? That way its more visible to someone looking for either group so less likely someone would get lost. I for one saw HRE human and just assumed it was a more historical thing.

Also, as someone not fully in the know with 3-d printing companies, a heading that is solely the name of the stl maker doesn't help overly much. Some of them, like the Peculiar lines, you are descriptive of, but Caballero for example you are not, and under that heading you have Spanish Knights, Elves, Hobgoblins, Demons, Giants, and slightly more fantasy humans. Subdividing it down a bit - either like you do with Peculiar or Txarli, could make each line within it more visible. A bit more consistency with how you subdivide lines might help too - Txarli is brand-> line subfolder in the dropdown, Peculiar is each model line is a main tab, and Caballero is everything dumped into one tag.

As someone said, needing to mark in notes if you do not want a command group with a purchase puts the onus on the customer to remember to type out a thing. It might be a good idea to take a line from I believe Artel W, where there is a simple pip you select that says "add 1 unit leader" or "add specialist model". Or perhaps make the command group a separate entry entirely.

 kurhanik wrote:
Looking at the site, there is a bit of dead space on the sides. You could look into maybe adding a sidebar like many sites have. I know Games Workshop and Ebay make use of them, and other miniature sites do as well. It takes a similar role as the top bar of course but it could be helpful. It could also give more subfolders in it without creating a mess like with a top bar - say Fantasy Miniatures -> Peculiar -> Holy Roman Empire Humans -> Ogres. It might be helpful to even split some of the headings a bit, as Ogres under the Human banner doesn't make the best sense to me, even if it was part of their bundle set. Maybe split it to HRE Humans and HRE Ogres? That way its more visible to someone looking for either group so less likely someone would get lost. I for one saw HRE human and just assumed it was a more historical thing.

Also, as someone not fully in the know with 3-d printing companies, a heading that is solely the name of the stl maker doesn't help overly much. Some of them, like the Peculiar lines, you are descriptive of, but Caballero for example you are not, and under that heading you have Spanish Knights, Elves, Hobgoblins, Demons, Giants, and slightly more fantasy humans. Subdividing it down a bit - either like you do with Peculiar or Txarli, could make each line within it more visible. A bit more consistency with how you subdivide lines might help too - Txarli is brand-> line subfolder in the dropdown, Peculiar is each model line is a main tab, and Caballero is everything dumped into one tag.

As someone said, needing to mark in notes if you do not want a command group with a purchase puts the onus on the customer to remember to type out a thing. It might be a good idea to take a line from I believe Artel W, where there is a simple pip you select that says "add 1 unit leader" or "add specialist model". Or perhaps make the command group a separate entry entirely.

That is an excellent point. I'll do some experimenting with a sidebar.

I agree on the consistency factor, and Ross and I will go through and re-tool the headings system.

Unfortunately, the pip idea isn't something we can implement with the current back end. That's why command is either predicated on number of models (EG, every 20 gets a command group unless otherwise asked) or a separate listing.

I agree there should be consistency there but I also don't want to add another 50 odd listings for command groups if I can so help it.

A lot of this is just fiddling whilst Rome burns, I'm afraid.

Without going into too much detail for various reasons, your problem is that you're attempting to run a business in an unprofessional manner. Pleae note I don't say that to be insulting, I'm not casting aspersions on your own personal commitment or customer service or attitude; but rather commenting on the core business structure itself.

-Your website is a shopify layout mess. Not only does having a .myshopify.com speak volumes as to how you're trying to do it on the cheap, your licensing requirements to mention the designer is confusing your layout to the point of incoherency. Adding tags will not fix this.
-You're trying to run a business on the side whilst pinning down a full-time job. What this means is that you're only one step above the guys running an Etsy page. Your capacity for manufacturing is low and you're already, in the name of honesty, telling everyone you're struggling to fulfill orders. Why would I want to wait when I can go elsewhere?
-You're selling unprofessional looking product. You're just copypasting renders I see on patreon sites. That means I can't even see what the model looks like printed, let alone what it looks like well painted. I would speculate that this follows through into the presentation aspect (I highly doubt you're posting them out in boxes with artwork on, for example). It's not great marketing, you know?

Your main problem, is that your business looks like two blokes with a couple of printers grabbing the odd patreon license and knocking out some stuff in their back room. Which I suspect is exactly what it is. And so long as the business is treated like an afterthought in that fashion, you're creating no real brand identity or awareness, and nothing to make me want to impulse order from you specifically.

The best you're going to get is that a customer will google the name of a model from a patreon, stumble across your site, place an order on the basis of 'Eh, why not, I really want that model', and then, IF they're satisfied, order again sometime. And that means that in that crucial first step, they can end up on any other etsy or shopify page. Most patreons sell several licenses usually. That means you have no way of standing out from the competition bar price. And how low do you want to go? etcetc.

You get the idea. As said, when I say your setup is unprofessional, I'm not attacking you (just to reiterate it again). I'm referring to the core business structure/layout.

 Ketara wrote:
(I highly doubt you're posting them out in boxes with artwork on, for example)

In fairness, for an online store you don't need fancy boxes. Even GW doesn't bother with them and ships their direct order only stuff in a generic white box.
The key is that the boxes/packaging protect the contents so that they arrive without harm, which does seem to be a major issue for you if you're shipping with supports attached. Most of the 3D print stores I know of don't ship with any supports; they print, wash, remove supports, rinse, cure, pack and then ship.

 Overread wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
(I highly doubt you're posting them out in boxes with artwork on, for example)

In fairness, for an online store you don't need fancy boxes. Even GW doesn't bother with them and ships their direct order only stuff in a generic white box.

Sure, but that limits your selling abilities. Want to sell at a convention? Want to help stock your local FLGS? etcetc.

Presentation can add a lot of options to your ability to shift product. You say 'fancy boxes', but in reality, cardboard boxes with either thin card or sticker overlays aren't expensive. What costs is the graphic design and the artwork/getting models pro -painted to go on the sticker. And those self-same pictures are what you'd use to market on the website.That's the thing about marketing/presentation, you can use what you make in one medium to advertise/sell in another.

Ultimately, no professional company would dream of launching a physical product with a handful of 3d renders. It just looks poor on a presentation footing and harms your ability to make sales. This comes back to what I'm saying about it intrinsically looking like two guys trying tomake a few quid off of a couple of 3D printers in their backroom; rather than an actual professional business.

The BIG factor that puts me off buying is the lack of photos of printed, assembled and painted minis. I want to know what my finished minis 'could' look like after I've dedicated time to painting them. I want to see something to aspire towards, I want to see the ultimate realisation of whatever brand's hobby. What I don't want to see is the 3d-printing equivalent of a pile of sprues. A render just doesn't inspire me.

Look at what a successful miniatures site does, full colour photos of finished minis on terrain layouts. The first thing you see is the finished mini, you have to go looking for unpainted or unassembled photos for a reason, they aren't the things that inspire purchases.

I think a few 3D print merchant licences actually forbid sale in a highstreet shop. That said I do agree, if you're making a physical business then having photos and packaging with those photos on it is important; however if you're just trading online its not needed.

Even in -person at events its not needed because at events you can get away with a big ad board and such. Individual packaging with glossy prints is a big cost in itself and a huge step away from what an online 3d print store might ever offer

A lot of people are commenting on the website but in my experience, TIPS is one of the better miniatures websites I've been on?

There are loads and loads of them that are just spreadsheets, like Khurasan Miniatures, which are still in business after a great many years.
Ral Partha, Iron Wind, Black Tree Designs, all don't have super great website design or layout and they're doing just fine. Even Reaper, to some extent, beyond their tag system, doesn't have a good website imho.

Not sure if that's because they were well established before Good Websites were even a notion and they're carrying on with that momentum or the average miniature purchaser just doesn't care.

OK Iron Wind is pretty poor, and reminds me of a US format a company I used to work for used.

Ral Partha and Black Tree have painted miniatures front and top centre....

There are certainly many in the wargame world who would do better to have a better website and to have photos not just renders. It's something that has slipped in and even some fairly well established names have terrible websites.

Thing is sometimes if they've already got enough customers they don't feel the pressure to improve; meanwhile someone who feels like they aren't doing as well as they might has a reason to improve. Plus most 3D prints are merchanted out to multiple customers - so this is less like a main producer - like Reaper - producing the product and selling direct. It's more like a store being the middleman.

Which means they compete with anyone else selling those models directly so they have to be better.

First off, let me say I like a lot of that stuff. And you accept Paypal, which is good as there is a 0% chance I would give my cc info to a small online business.

The pricing seems off though. What you have is cheap compared to "Warhammer", and pricey for the rest of the miniature hobby. A lot of the stuff on your site is either historical or low fantasy historical. I'm used to paying around $1 per mini for those, from places like Perry, Warlord, Victrix, and Wargames Atlantic. For example the skeletons are competing with this:

https://wargamesatlantic.com/collections/classic-fantasy/products/skeleton-infantry

What you have is better than those, but not 250% better, IMO. The cavalry is closer as those are more like $2.50 per mini in plastic.

For the terrain you have a mix of fairly generic offerings I can get much cheaper from Pegasus or Sarissa, without the FDM crosshatching, and some really cool unique stuff. That Petra is awesome, and I might pay $100 for it. But not sight unseen. I want to see a photo of a real, printed one. Same deal for some of the smaller items that are not available elsewhere. At the point where you are self promoting on a niche website, people know what is available from the major 3rd party manufacturers.

I think you may have to decide if you want to be a "3D printed minis" company or a "Not Warhammer" company. Again the prices look good compared to GW, so putting out stuff that 40k/AoS players would want would make your price point more palatable. If you pursue that I'd forget the semi historicals and go for "Space Elf Death Cultist with Panzershreck" type offerings. Otherwise a lower price point may be needed. I'd probably do $1.50 or $1.75 per mini for "better" skeleton archers, but might pay your prices for something I wanted but can't get cheaper somewhere else in good quality. You'd have to do some research to find what those items might be. Decide who you want your customer to be, and market to them accordingly.

If custom STL and prints are available, you should elaborate on that within the site. For example I *really* want a large quantity (50+) of sheathed and unsheathed Kukri knives. To me, with some familiarity with 3D printing that would rather someone else do it, I think 2 hours of semi skilled labor ($25x2) for the STL and 20 sprues of 3+3 at $5 each is a reasonable starting point. If that seems in the ballpark of what makes sense for you financially, PM me.

I think if you adjust your business model a bit you should be ok. "Not 40k"stuff and/or niche historical and fantasy historical stuff that people will want, and can't get elsewhere, is the direction I would go. "Small ball" heads, weapon packs, and the like are also something you have not tapped into yet that could make you some $.

 Overread wrote:
There are certainly many in the wargame world who would do better to have a better website and to have photos not just renders. It's something that has slipped in and even some fairly well established names have terrible websites.

Thing is sometimes if they've already got enough customers they don't feel the pressure to improve; meanwhile someone who feels like they aren't doing as well as they might has a reason to improve. Plus most 3D prints are merchanted out to multiple customers - so this is less like a main producer - like Reaper - producing the product and selling direct. It's more like a store being the middleman.

Which means they compete with anyone else selling those models directly so they have to be better.

Well, its either have our own website, at the moment via shopify, or join the hordes of other 3D printing services flogging their stuff on Etsy,

With renders or otherwise designer-provided images as product images, I might add. Very few places on etsy have I found images of physical prints.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Overread wrote:
There are certainly many in the wargame world who would do better to have a better website and to have photos not just renders. It's something that has slipped in and even some fairly well established names have terrible websites.

Thing is sometimes if they've already got enough customers they don't feel the pressure to improve; meanwhile someone who feels like they aren't doing as well as they might has a reason to improve. Plus most 3D prints are merchanted out to multiple customers - so this is less like a main producer - like Reaper - producing the product and selling direct. It's more like a store being the middleman.

Which means they compete with anyone else selling those models directly so they have to be better.

Well, its either have our own website, at the moment via shopify, or join the hordes of other 3D printing services flogging their stuff on Etsy,

With renders or otherwise designer-provided images as product images, I might add. Very few places on etsy have I found images of physical prints.

In all seriousness, making your own website is not hard. I managed it over the space of a week, as did my 62 year old father. Hosting isn't too expensive, and wordpress has a million and one guides. For a basic page, you really don't need to spend thousands hiring a developer. I can understand that it might be hard given the other commitments on your time, but the extra control and professional appearance is a benefit that will last once you've done it.

As to chucking out a print picture , some people are doing it. Take a look at March of War:- https://marchofwar.co.uk/product/heavy-paragon-5pk/215/

Their website is generally annoying in a late '90's Geocities special effect style, but they make a point of trying to print and give out a basic photo of everything they sell. As a customer, I appreciate that. It let's me see what I'm buying in advance.

https://metaloakcastingstudios.com/collections/aphyrion-miniatures

Metal Oak, on the other hand, seems to take more of a 'take a few snaps when we first do a print and upload it' approach, which whilst a little bit more disorganised, still moves in the right direction. It means that they're gradually accruing pictures without printing stuff (aka spending money) without a sale.

This, ultimately, is what your competition is doing. I could name others (CoastalCreations follows in the Metal Oak style, for example). And given how most patreons license to multiple people; they may well end up selling the same stuff as you. If you don't do it as well as them, they may well end up eating your lunch.

Considering the volume some 3D print stores work in per month with new releases (you think GW releases a lot, 3D patreons make GW look sluggish when you look at several at once) and that most only send out render images; I think its practical to do a "take a photo each time you sell one". As a general policy and then back that up with photos as you get slower periods.

At the veyr least you'll also be validating the presupports and making any adjustments and ensuring things print for you so that alone can generate spare inventory for photos.

 Overread wrote:
Considering the volume some 3D print stores work in per month with new releases (you think GW releases a lot, 3D patreons make GW look sluggish when you look at several at once) and that most only send out render images; I think its practical to do a "take a photo each time you sell one". As a general policy and then back that up with photos as you get slower periods.

At the veyr least you'll also be validating the presupports and making any adjustments and ensuring things print for you so that alone can generate spare inventory for photos.

I think it comes down to how you choose to focus your business model. I see some of these print shops pop up, take licenses for a dozen patreons and a thousand different models, then fall and die. I also see some that specialise in just selling a few closely themed patreons really well and being selective about what they choose to print and sell.

It comes down to what someone said above about picking your niche and filling it. If you're only doing a handful of patreons with a slow themed release schedule (say Bulwark Miniatures, or Pipermakes for 40K), one print a month is small potatoes because they only make one or two models a month. It's easy to justify the wastage from printing for photos as a business cost and sell the print on ebay after.

Something like Epic Miniatures on the other hand, would demand you basically ran the printer all month if you wanted photographs of everything. They make crazy numbers of models, much like you say. If you were doing RN Estudio and a handful of other patreons like that? Photos of everything would be an impossibility. But then you'd have to decide whether you want to make a listing for EVERYTHING they make, or just the most popular stuff. No point having a thousand listings if it only makes you ten sales a month; where having a hundred well laid out/photographed listings would net you thirty. Quantity isn't always King, and having a license for everything doesn't mean you need to make everything.

At the end of the day, this is all core business strategising and logistical planning. If a business manages them well, then hey, to the victor go the spoils.

The peculiar companions giant has been added. We took this opportunity to test out some new drop downs. please let us know your thoughts on them and if they provided a better experience.

https://two-idiots-printing-service.myshopify.com/products/peculiar-companions-imperial-giant

Now that (giant page) works much better (for me)

That works better. Are you planning a similar approach for command groups in the infantry sets?

Slipspace wrote:
That works better. Are you planning a similar approach for command groups in the infantry sets?

Potentially, once I can test what I did with the back end to make sure it works.

I'm in the same niche as the OP.
I have a few selected Patreon licences and some lifetime licences.

I also do this as a side job in the evening and the weekends.
I started out on Ebay but meanwhile built my own shop using the free version of Shopware (because it has all the EU regulation stuff as it's a Germany product).

I feel like Ebay or Etsy is you best bet to grow. While it's eating lots of profits and there are competitors, the customer base is gigantic.

I won't repeat what has been said about the website, I think you got the point that this should be reworked and migrated to another system, even if you don't like it and it feels like a huge amount of work.

Another point I would like to mention are the offered products.
You either have licences for systems with a very small player base like 9th Age (Txarli, PC), historicals (Caballero) where the competition with cheap plastic kits is gigantic, Oldschool sculpts (BigMrTong) that are not that popular in today's market and Ian Lovecraft's stuff that has a super huge following through Kickstarter, and basically everyone with a printer has his files and either prints it themselves or for their gaming group at zero profit.
Don't get me wrong, personally I love a lot of that stuff, but I can't imagine it sells well.
Maybe the Tomb King proxies because the originals are OOP and there's not a lot of options aside from 3D printing.

You sell the models with supports attached. This is a big turnoff for me, and personally, I would never buy them that way.
Maybe once if I had no previous experience with resin 3D prints. Sure, you offer support removal, but that's priced quite high.
And I know that some of your minis are only that cheap because you don't have to put in the manual labour of removing the supports.

I already mentioned issues with models being shipped with supports, but charging extra for support removal really shouldn't be a thing. $10 per $25 of an order is a lot to basically twist and peel models off supports before curing.

Furthermore your competition is pretty much always taking them off and shipping them without supports. So you're basically charging more to provide a service that the majority of your competing companies will be doing as standard without additional cost to the consumer (or if there is, its very marginal and rolled into the model price).

The only time that fee would be justified is if it was a full cleaning service. That means supports removed, marks and dimples cleaned off. Ergo they are getting an almost perfect model that will require no clean up or prep prior to assembly. And if you ARE doing that then you should be showing clear before and after photos highlighting the quality and level of service they are getting.

Because if you watch any one on youtube (ergo what customers without a 3D printer will do) take supports off its a few seconds and they are done.

 Overread wrote:
I already mentioned issues with models being shipped with supports, but charging extra for support removal really shouldn't be a thing. $10 per $25 of an order is a lot to basically twist and peel models off supports before curing.

Furthermore your competition is pretty much always taking them off and shipping them without supports. So you're basically charging more to provide a service that the majority of your competing companies will be doing as standard without additional cost to the consumer (or if there is, its very marginal and rolled into the model price).

The only time that fee would be justified is if it was a full cleaning service. That means supports removed, marks and dimples cleaned off. Ergo they are getting an almost perfect model that will require no clean up or prep prior to assembly. And if you ARE doing that then you should be showing clear before and after photos highlighting the quality and level of service they are getting.

Because if you watch any one on youtube (ergo what customers without a 3D printer will do) take supports off its a few seconds and they are done.

We're in discussion between the two of us here about it.

Currently my business partner handles the physical printing because I do not have a space for 12+ printers. He's also a pilot and, in addition to the reasons I outlined earlier in this thread, would rather be more effecient with the time he puts into the business.

He feels charging for the time for the manual labor is justified, especially when we're putting $100+ orders as a $40 flat rate and depending on what's ordered that could be a significant amount of time to desupport (for reference, 75-100 infantry)

He's also not a wargamer, but understands the basic concepts. He views support removal as similar to removing plastics from sprues, and thus part of the "hobby project" aspect of any miniatures purchase

I would be happy to do the desupporting and shipping myself. Unfortunately, I just moved 2 hours away from home base/where the printers are. Ergo, it's a bit of a gak situation until I can get the space for the printers, he can shift them to me and we can get things sorted out.

In short: we're in a holding pattern, and the service charges for support removal, which are optional, will be disappearing as soon as humanly possible.

Just for reference, I experimented with a little FDM print shop, focusing entirely on 10mm warmaster terrain: https://www.warscape.uk/#

Painted up everything nicely, advertised in a few groups. One sale. That's it, will close up shop at the end of the month.
That's fine though, fun experiment that didn't go very far and I'm left with a nice terrain collection.

My conclusion is that you're really better off going with Etsy, eBay or another platform in addition to the website. There aren't hordes of shops on there because it isn't working out for them, they're on there because it does. I learned that lesson fast with my main business which has a 70/20/10 sales split between etsy, eBay and my own website.

If I was hung up over joining the hordes on etsy I'd have gotten nowhere, I knew I could do better photos and provide more info and authenticity than the other etsy sellers so I didn't worry about them, set my prices higher and it worked.

Some other observations:

- "Two Idiots Printing" is probably one of the worst possible names I can think of, to give your business. Even something random I'm about to make up on the spot - "Blackstar 3D", "Gamerprintz", "Dragonclaw Design " etc. would at least not give the immediate impression of "they don't know what they're doing and are proud of it???" that your current name gives off.

- The other guy not being into wargames is a problem, and if he's a pilot on a good income, this gig is never going to seem profitable enough, 10 dollars to remove a few supports seems reasonable if you're on pilot wages and comparing it to that, but to everyone else that's overcharging.

- Lack of focus - Pick one thing, do it well. I have no interest in a resin print farm, but would probably razor focus on not-40k miniatures, probably picking a creator or two like ghamak etc. If I wanted to make it work. Someone else already doing that on etsy isn't bad, there's room in the market.

Good luck with the venture, you certainly have the setup working well if you've got a farm of 12 printers set up, that's a solid base to work from.

Like I said if he's cleaning up those models to look like perfection then its money well spent, but its also overkill. Taking off supports should be a few seconds, easily done whilst your wash machine (I assume you use one since you're producing in volume with 12 printers) is washing the next batch of models.

If taking off supports is taking significant time then it sounds like

1) the supports are way too thick overall, which might be leading to damage on the model or a really slow careful process of clipping each one off.

2) the supports (thick or thin) are being cured on the model, which instantly makes them much harder to separate and, again, means spending ages with the clippers.


If the presupports are too thick you need to go in and change the supports. Since you've got printers well calibrated and you're producing the extra time spent adjusting supports is time well invested because then you've supports that work for you. That pop models off super easy and leave minimal damage. Even the big pre-support teams (eg Atlas) tend ot over-compensate a bit when providing pre-supports to account for imperfect settings in the general consumer market; so even with their supports you can go back and adjust them to be a lighter, less damaging style (which does mean under exposure has to be avoided otherwise it won't hold)

Thanks guys. That perspective helps. I'll go and chat with Ross on things