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Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Gert wrote:
Agreed. The only reason Orks have the whole "it works cos Orks" meme is because of a piece of background had a Techpriest analyse some Ork weapons and say they could never work so clearly its psychic shenanigans. Then it got blown out of proportion and now its "canon" to loads of people. What if the Techpriest wasn't that smart or was more focused on Chemistry than Weaponry? What if it was actually a perfectly designed weapon and it couldn't get out that a Xenos had made it?

Or what if it was just broken? It was salvaged from a battlefield, after all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 13:02:48


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Why do they wear pants? Serious question. Do mushrooms feel shame?


Simple. Primitive Orks, aka Wildboyz wear the pelts of fearsome creatures they’ve overcome to display their ‘ardness.

As they’re exposed to more civilised Orks (or the number of Orks on the planet begins to increase) they become more practical clothing, for things such as pockets, loops and other benefits. They can also be a sign of personal wealth (best demonstrated by Bad Moons).

Boots? You can kick someone way harder with steel toe caps and hobnails than just your feets.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think it would be more convincing if Orks work kilts
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

I don’t think there’s any place for facts where they aren’t known as facts in setting. ORK know no more about their origins than anyone else. The grey area is what makes the setting so good as a game setting.

The new codex has a few lines on the origins of ORKS but all of it ambiguous, which to me is better than absolutes.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Agreed. The only reason Orks have the whole "it works cos Orks" meme is because of a piece of background had a Techpriest analyse some Ork weapons and say they could never work so clearly its psychic shenanigans. Then it got blown out of proportion and now its "canon" to loads of people. What if the Techpriest wasn't that smart or was more focused on Chemistry than Weaponry? What if it was actually a perfectly designed weapon and it couldn't get out that a Xenos had made it?

Or what if it was just broken? It was salvaged from a battlefield, after all.


It all comes back to the point of people being unable to distinguish between in-universe and out of universe sources. The former is fallible and can be as limited or biased as whoever the source is.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





if orks are mushrooms then Orks are delicious...
that is all


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Iracundus wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Agreed. The only reason Orks have the whole "it works cos Orks" meme is because of a piece of background had a Techpriest analyse some Ork weapons and say they could never work so clearly its psychic shenanigans. Then it got blown out of proportion and now its "canon" to loads of people. What if the Techpriest wasn't that smart or was more focused on Chemistry than Weaponry? What if it was actually a perfectly designed weapon and it couldn't get out that a Xenos had made it?

Or what if it was just broken? It was salvaged from a battlefield, after all.


It all comes back to the point of people being unable to distinguish between in-universe and out of universe sources. The former is fallible and can be as limited or biased as whoever the source is.


Latest Codex Orks, pp8, paragraph 3.

Nor is violence the only way in which the power of the Waaagh! manifests. It has been suggested that Ork technology works only because the greeskins themselves believe that it should. This seems ludicrous, yet it is an observable fact that no other race can make Ork technology as it should


Seems pretty conclusive.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




You could argue I spose though that whilst the Old Ones programed the Orks to create rather ramshackle weapons they did so from a base of higher technological knowledge than any current 40k race.

So whilst the Imperium's technology maybe more slickly constructed Ork tech is actually based on more advanced science which the Imperium isnt able to explain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 20:13:59


 
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






That is entirely possible. For the Imperium.

But Eldar and Necrons? Granted they’d likely be singularly uninterested in Orky know-wotz, but the quote isn’t Imperium specific.

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Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

Someone not being able to make something work isn’t the same as it not working. I couldn’t hop in a space shuttle and make it work. But that doesn’t mean it would only work for NASA engineers. The ambiguity is still there.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





What’s wrong with the idea that Orks stuff works because they believe it does?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We know they are a species dripping in psychic energy made by a species who were masters of the warp.

And we have seen creature in 40K manifest psychic weapons.

So maybe Orks make the shell of a devices with some gubbins and the rest of the components are filled in by warp energy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 10:46:23


 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




I never liked that Ork technology simply works because "they believe in it". We have many examples of Orks building complex weapons and systems (targeting computers, fusion reactors, antigrav engines etc) but because they are complicated and they require a competent Mek and lots of ressources, they are not as common as a Shoota (which is simply an oversized select fire gun) or a tracked/wheeled vehicle.

That's why, my personal headcanon is that Orks' stuff COULD work (nothing is wrong with the underlying maths/physics) but because the designs are crude, their stuff needs a little bit of "psychic grease" to properly work.

It's a middle-ground.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I believe it was in the 5th ed codex that Orks had embedded deep in their DNA excellent institutional knowledge of stuff, that only manifested through rare genetic mutation.

So randomly an Ork would grow with a deep knowledge of anatomy and surgery, his knowledge would likely exceed that of many of the great Biologus of Mars. He'd make his way as a Painboy.

Similarly, an Ork might randomly be born with a deep knowledge of engineering and maufacturing. Knowledge that would even make Cawl jealous. He'd make his way as a Mek, building contraptions from scrap with techniques and solutions that would baffle the tech-priests of Mars.

They're geniuses but they squander their knowledge making scrap metal work 'good enough' instead of using good materials to advance the field of science.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Its the constant warfare and eradication that prevents the Ork species from advancing. They do love a good scrap but for a lot of the Great Crusade it was Orks defending against Imperial attacks. Post Heresy when they were left alone out of negligence on the Imperiums part, the Orks started to advance significantly and began creating technological terrors that rivaled the Age of Technology. This led to the War of the Beast where we got to see the Orks evolve drastically.
People complained about how the Orks used tactics and had "ambassadors" but that's just evolution. "Oh but that's not what Orks do", correct it's what a more evolutionary advanced species of Ork would do. The Ordo Xenos exists to make sure races like the Orks stay at a manageable level and don't evolve into more dangerous lifeforms.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






It’s even been speculated (though I can’t recall where, but it wasn’t fan fiction) that Ghaz himself may be a new form of Oddboy - specifically a Leader caste.

This actually has some real merit to it when you look at how Orkiforming of a planet works.

Initially it’s Fungus and Squigs. Then Snots and Grots to cultivate the former. That done, Orks begin to emerge. And from those Orks, the first Oddboyz to manifest are Runtherdz. Then Painboys, followed by Mekboyz.

So there do seem to be societal/environmental triggers for Oddboy manifestation, with each appearing once population density reaches a certain point.

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Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I would view Gaz's appearance as sort of the cultural equivalent of going from scattered tribes to a unified kingdom/empire, except the Orks have loads of guns and explosives.
It happened with the Beast and the Imperium has been fighting on more fronts than ever so it would make sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/27 13:04:05


 
   
Made in pl
Tunneling Trygon





 Gert wrote:
This would be an interesting concept for something like a proper Ork homeworld with cultivation caves to grow legions of Orks. I could certainly imagine a Runtherd sitting in a cave just telling stories to the spores that would one day become Orks.
This could be a good Black Library story.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Kind of wish I hadn't said it now, could've used it for BL submissions
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Sedona, Arizona

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I believe it was in the 5th ed codex that Orks had embedded deep in their DNA excellent institutional knowledge of stuff, that only manifested through rare genetic mutation.

So randomly an Ork would grow with a deep knowledge of anatomy and surgery, his knowledge would likely exceed that of many of the great Biologus of Mars. He'd make his way as a Painboy.

Similarly, an Ork might randomly be born with a deep knowledge of engineering and maufacturing. Knowledge that would even make Cawl jealous. He'd make his way as a Mek, building contraptions from scrap with techniques and solutions that would baffle the tech-priests of Mars.

They're geniuses but they squander their knowledge making scrap metal work 'good enough' instead of using good materials to advance the field of science.


This is cannon. It's been stated in multiple codex's (including the newest) that the Shokk Attack Gun is a marvel of engineering which could revolutionize transporation and other factors for any race which could manage to create it.

Except Orks made it, so they simply use it to shoot snotlings into people.

 welshhoppo wrote:

I like my Orks how I like my Emperor, dead.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 morganfreeman wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I believe it was in the 5th ed codex that Orks had embedded deep in their DNA excellent institutional knowledge of stuff, that only manifested through rare genetic mutation.

So randomly an Ork would grow with a deep knowledge of anatomy and surgery, his knowledge would likely exceed that of many of the great Biologus of Mars. He'd make his way as a Painboy.

Similarly, an Ork might randomly be born with a deep knowledge of engineering and maufacturing. Knowledge that would even make Cawl jealous. He'd make his way as a Mek, building contraptions from scrap with techniques and solutions that would baffle the tech-priests of Mars.

They're geniuses but they squander their knowledge making scrap metal work 'good enough' instead of using good materials to advance the field of science.


This is cannon. It's been stated in multiple codex's (including the newest) that the Shokk Attack Gun is a marvel of engineering which could revolutionize transporation and other factors for any race which could manage to create it.

Except Orks made it, so they simply use it to shoot snotlings into people.


I think the embedded genetic knowledge of odd boyz has been around since 2nd Ed.

I don’t see it as they have squandered their knowledge, they use it exactly how they want it. Plus they must use their tech in loads of ways that we don’t know about, there might be a big ork space ship with teleporters on it
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Embedded genetic knowledge has been there since Rogue Trader.

It’s important to note though that the Oddboyz have no real conscious ability.

A Mek is simply an Ork able to bash scrap into useful things. They rarely, if ever, set out to build anything particularly specific. Sure, if they set out to soup up the Boss’ Shoota, that’s what they’ll do - but exactly what the souping up will be, they don’t know (or particularly care).

Likewise a Painboy knows the kustomer needs their arm reattaching (and teef removing, at no extra charge). But they by no means limits that particular serjury.

Rather than genius, they’re possibly better described as having Savant Syndrome. Certainly no Ork can simply choose to be an Oddboy. They either are, or aren’t. Apprentices are simply nascent Oddboyz learning the trade, rather than a Boy actually seeking out new knowledge.

It’s much the same instinctive impulse as Speed Freeks, Burna Boyz etc. An interest becomes an all consuming passion, if not outright addiction to a specific action.

This of course is just another element of their success as a species. With no places of dedicated learning, no foe can simply wipe out their capacity to create new Meks or Doks. And it’s heavily implied the manifestation of any given stripe of Oddboy correlates to population density.

This is best demonstrated, in my opinion, in the classic short story of a nascent Waaagh!

The story beings with an established Mekboy witnessing a Titan (I think Warlord class, but perhaps that’s not defined? Will need to check) absolutely wrecking the ladz.

With typical Orky insight, he figures that it must be the Emprah come to gives the Orks a kicking. From there, he wonders if he could build Gork and Mork bodies, so they could gang up on the Emprah and give him a good shoeing.

His efforts start off fairly single handed - but his mania to build these bodies (Great Gargant) proves infectious, and he ends up leading a multi-tribe effort to get them built. In doing so, this spreads across other planets and systems, eventually triggering a Waaagh!

Rather than Meks appearing amongst the Boyz, more and more Meks from around the planet are drawn to help in the project, with others building their own (including Dredds, Kans and Stompas).

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think the more interesting question is what directs the Orks to spawn a certain number of meks and pain boyz within the community of boyz. It must be part of their psychic connection or it could be that Gork and Mork influence this from within the warp.

Are gork and mork the product of collective ork psyche or were they created by the old ones to direct the Waaaaaagh from within the warp?
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Well.

Now.

Now well now well well now now now.

If we cross reference Realm of Chaos and the RT era books, I think I can genuinely if not answer, at least rule out one of your hypotheticals.

Specifically, we know the Chaos Gods exist because of emotion. As their nascent forms grew, so were the emotions they were comprised of magnified in real space. A sort of reciprocal thing.

Now, we know the Orks are the produce of the Brainboyz. That could be Snotling, hyped up on smarty fungus, or it could be a heavily distorted racial memory of The Old Slann/Ones (Orks likely being more fighty than either creator).

From more modern sources, we know the Old Ones, faced by the combined might of the Necrons and C’Tan started propagating new species in a hurry. Specifically psychically talented species who could harness the C’Tan’s natural anathema to good effect.

That disturbed the natural rhythm of the warp, leading to the four main gods (and all the minor ones).

Kroroks likely became Orks. So the whole genetic tampering came first, then the species.

We know they’re nothing if not prolific. Being warp touched to some degree (and more, on average, than the baseline ‘umie), they’d have created their own ripples, pools, Eddie’s and sentience in the warp, which became Gork and Mork.

So the whole “genetic knowledge” thing almost certainly did not stem from Gork and Mork. However, being patrons and protectors of all things Greenskin, I suppose it is arguable that Gork and Mork can fan certain genetic flames if it helps The Ladz get into ever bigger and fun fights.

Do I win £5?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/28 20:09:58


Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?

Pfizer vaccine administered 13:40pm 18 Feb 21. Still no second head. Second jab 13:35pm 6 May 2021. At the Masonic Hall. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






If Ork tech runs on Waaagh! power it makes perfect sense other races couldn't use it. It would be like trying to use an electric-powered device with no power source. The 'because Orks believe it should' would be plausible Imperial conjecture because when Orks get hyped they generate more Waaagh! energy, and thus their tech would be getting more power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Time and causality are malleable in the Warp; mayhaps Mork tricked the Old Ones into making the Krork so that Gork could turn them into Orks, and their collective Waaagh! power manifested in the Warp as Gork & Mork!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 06:14:21


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
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Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I really, really hate the change in the background that made it so the 3e speculation of a disbelieving tech priest is actually correct. It's so emblematic of everything that is wrong with modern 40K background, taking unreliable Imperial perspectives as canon fact, making non-Imperial factions into stupid cartoons (because of course Orks can't just be smart enough to make their tech work but have a different perspective on what is valuable or useful to humans, it has to "magic".).

It was fine for jokes and lighthearted ribbing but making it part of the background, along with the ridiculous new background about Machine Spirits really puts me off 40K as a setting. I find it really alienating. I see a lot of people getting upset about changes to the setting to make it more inclusive because they feel it is changing it from what they originally enjoyed and that stuff doesn't bother me at all, I actually think it's fixing deficiencies in the old model line and background, but this stuff really makes me feel like it's not the same world I got into at all any more.

   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I'm pretty sure the "it works cos Orks" is still just a trash meme.
Its like how when you're a child you always think that red sports cars are the fastest, then you see a red Ferrari and your beliefs are justified because everyone knows Ferarri makes fast cars. Therefore red=fast.
The purple Ork thing is definitely a joke still. Have you ever seen a purple Ork? No? Then purple must make Orks invisible. Really basic, childlike logic which is exactly how Orks think.
Of course I haven't had an Ork Codex for a while so maybe it is in the latest one. I'm not gonna buy it to find out but maybe someone here got the Beastsnagga box.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 11:41:57


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Seems like the latest codex is leaning into it more and more. The purple Ork thing I don't care about really.

   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Again, no idea what the Codex is doing since I don't have a copy. Do you?
I'm not trying to sound passive-aggressive or anything but 90% of the mistakes with background people make are because they haven't actually read the book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 12:01:53


 
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

MDG posted a quote above, that's what I'm basing it on.

   
 
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