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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Goose LeChance wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
I did prefer things back between the dawn of war 1 and 2 era. The game was more of a setting then, like a sandbox for the players. Now GW is trying to drive the narrative and is altering things (like blowing up biel-tan). I personally didn't like the change of necrons from their more intimidating and creepy lore into space tomb kings (loss of pariahs too). There was some good things though like the artistic revamp of dark eldar.

I personally like the really serious and grim stuff. But there is room for some tongue in cheek humor here and there. But it also depends on the army, Orks can get away with being comical but Drukhari not so much, that would ruin them.


I think GW took a lot of influence from Warmachine/Hordes, a constantly evolving story lends itself well to DLC-like sales schemes. A never ending churn of new models and rules.

Captain Victoria Haley mk5 Prime 2.0 : The Returnining


The problem with that is 40k was never an ongoing story like it is now. WMH is. This is why it works in AOS too as it was that from the outset. 40k never was so all of sudden there is this dramatic shift in narrative style to morph it into something it was never designed to be.

Sure, there were isolated stories within the setting and big events (like the EOT campaign or Armageddon 3) that moved the narrative forward but these are nowhere near the almost weekly jerking forward of the timeline by two dozen of so big damn heroes we have now.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Grimtuff wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
I did prefer things back between the dawn of war 1 and 2 era. The game was more of a setting then, like a sandbox for the players. Now GW is trying to drive the narrative and is altering things (like blowing up biel-tan). I personally didn't like the change of necrons from their more intimidating and creepy lore into space tomb kings (loss of pariahs too). There was some good things though like the artistic revamp of dark eldar.

I personally like the really serious and grim stuff. But there is room for some tongue in cheek humor here and there. But it also depends on the army, Orks can get away with being comical but Drukhari not so much, that would ruin them.


I think GW took a lot of influence from Warmachine/Hordes, a constantly evolving story lends itself well to DLC-like sales schemes. A never ending churn of new models and rules.

Captain Victoria Haley mk5 Prime 2.0 : The Returnining


The problem with that is 40k was never an ongoing story like it is now. WMH is. This is why it works in AOS too as it was that from the outset. 40k never was so all of sudden there is this dramatic shift in narrative style to morph it into something it was never designed to be.

Sure, there were isolated stories within the setting and big events (like the EOT campaign or Armageddon 3) that moved the narrative forward but these are nowhere near the almost weekly jerking forward of the timeline by two dozen of so big damn heroes we have now.


40k could have seen setting progress just the same as WMH did. It’s story’s follow that progress and are set within it, 40k was mostly just mishandled in that regard and no one had any sense of the setting it was set in that could manage that.
AOS kinda works since they just left a lot of that up in the air, than really put in any effort.

Things like Cadia can be very important, without changing the setting “forever” Even if they effectively change the setting forever. Worlds and sectors change hands over years of battles, chaos grows and wanes across the imperium.

Even the big world ending events can be great fun to set battles in, which GW only does if they can sell something.
They just don’t treat the setting as valuable, and it ends up being kinda meh since so much of the setting leaps over interesting points with no balance or thought.
It may be asking a lot from GW, but some effort here sets the whole setting up for good story’s that may actually be a little more than fan fodder.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Goose LeChance wrote:
Gothic, Grimdark, Ironic, Unironic, Horror, Action, whatever.

Anything but Marvel or Disney please.


Same for me. I like the many versions of 40k tone, but please don't Marvel/Disney-fy it. Space Marines aren't the Avengers and the Imperium aren't the good guys and yet the marketing is chasing that.


This correlation you’re seeing… does not exist.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Strg Alt wrote:
40K 2nd era did it right. Dystopian future in which everybody was more or less serious with the Orks acting as comic relief. Although once they squatted the Orks' humour in 3rd the tone of the setting went downhill fast because everybody was seemingly in a competition for being a stone-faced mudstick.


I hated orks as a comic relief and still can't stand those unit/models that look silly. I prefer a very grim dark tone for 40k, with a very tragic and dramatic vibe, where orks are supposed to be ugly, dirty and scary. I don't think humor should fit the 40k environment, at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I like the many versions of 40k tone, but please don't Marvel/Disney-fy it. Space Marines aren't the Avengers and the Imperium aren't the good guys and yet the marketing is chasing that.


Yeah, I'd hate that too. But note that even the Avengers or the US governments portrayed in Marvel movies aren't the good guys, not all of them at least .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 11:18:33



 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Gimme grimdark but ironic any day. Not necessarily saying that they have to be winking at us outright with everything, but when the universe is at its most miserable it should feel like they're leaning into pitch-black humour rather than being like "OMG this is so dark and gritty, unlike other sissy stories for babies, doesn't this miserable universe reflect how mature I am?"

I think of it similarly to how in the 70s and 80s Judge Dredd was blatantly satirical and used its dark humour to show how Mega City One was a crapsack world. But then in the 90s edgelord writers like Mark Millar and Garth Ennis took away a lot of the irony in stories like Judgement Day and Inferno and it just felt like it was glorifying the fascism at that point.

Amen to that! Vey well said.

   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Tawnis wrote:40k should be a setting, not a theme. It should have its Grim/Dark, but also have it's Adventure, Comedy, Mystery, dare I say Romance? It's all out there, and none of it invalidates the other themes/tones that are out there. It's a big Galaxy.
This. 40k doesn't need a single theme, let it be a setting unto itself, and people can insert whatever theme they like into it.

Goose LeChance wrote:Anything but Marvel or Disney please.
Define what that means?


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I feel like part of the way GW balanced things more sucessfully back in the day was the way they used illustrations personally, so much of the atmosphere of the setting came via those classic pencil drawings from people like Ian Miller. It was easier to vary the tone in that fashion than it was in a setting with more extensive lore, you could have some epic Hieronymus Bosch like image imperial gothic excess but then also some punky Ork comedy or Eldar looking like a 70's Italian prog rock album cover.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 19:37:36


 
   
Made in nl
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

 Strg Alt wrote:
40K 2nd era did it right. Dystopian future in which everybody was more or less serious with the Orks acting as comic relief. Although once they squatted the Orks' humour in 3rd the tone of the setting went downhill fast because everybody was seemingly in a competition for being a stone-faced mudstick.
At least you had the Catachans emulating 80s action movie heroes for entertainment. Though I also need to give credit for the Imperial propaganda material in 3rd which explained the environment to the players. Special mention goes to the info letters every citizen of the IoM was given in case of Tyranid incursion. Those were pretty heartless.

Agreed.
Life within and as a more or less cognizant contributing member of a genocidal propaganda machine worshipping some husk taking a 10k year dump on chaos was an angle now lost even on the Regimental Standard. Tropes and memes were exploited, successfully, in indirect commentary of then-contemporary culture. 40k was inclusive as a landscape for sci-fantasy narrative forging. Now everything is spelled wrong and is universe specific such that one might expect cow elves in space to be next.
The current iteration reflects also current sensitivities to satire, being that none is tolerated and all is literal e.g. the wokification of 40k e.g. gender and racial representation, as if the idea wasn’t to imagine a completely unjust world and along with it all the bureaucratic absurdities needed to support it in the first place. Next we know, the emperor will offer tyrannids green cards and public support due to their being underrepresented in the all too human corpus of the imperium


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Gimme grimdark but ironic any day. Not necessarily saying that they have to be winking at us outright with everything, but when the universe is at its most miserable it should feel like they're leaning into pitch-black humour rather than being like "OMG this is so dark and gritty, unlike other sissy stories for babies, doesn't this miserable universe reflect how mature I am?"

I think of it similarly to how in the 70s and 80s Judge Dredd was blatantly satirical and used its dark humour to show how Mega City One was a crapsack world. But then in the 90s edgelord writers like Mark Millar and Garth Ennis took away a lot of the irony in stories like Judgement Day and Inferno and it just felt like it was glorifying the fascism at that point.

This seems right to me, too.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/24 20:35:03


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 jeff white wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
40K 2nd era did it right. Dystopian future in which everybody was more or less serious with the Orks acting as comic relief. Although once they squatted the Orks' humour in 3rd the tone of the setting went downhill fast because everybody was seemingly in a competition for being a stone-faced mudstick.
At least you had the Catachans emulating 80s action movie heroes for entertainment. Though I also need to give credit for the Imperial propaganda material in 3rd which explained the environment to the players. Special mention goes to the info letters every citizen of the IoM was given in case of Tyranid incursion. Those were pretty heartless.

Agreed.
Life within and as a more or less cognizant contributing member of a genocidal propaganda machine worshipping some husk taking a 10k year dump on chaos was an angle now lost even on the Regimental Standard. Tropes and memes were exploited, successfully, in indirect commentary of then-contemporary culture. 40k was inclusive as a landscape for sci-fantasy narrative forging. Now everything is spelled wrong and is universe specific such that one might expect cow elves in space to be next.
The current iteration reflects also current sensitivities to satire, being that none is tolerated and all is literal e.g. the wokification of 40k e.g. gender and racial representation, as if the idea wasn’t to imagine a completely unjust world and along with it all the bureaucratic absurdities needed to support it in the first place. Next we know, the emperor will offer tyrannids green cards and public support due to their being underrepresented in the all too human corpus of the imperium


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Gimme grimdark but ironic any day. Not necessarily saying that they have to be winking at us outright with everything, but when the universe is at its most miserable it should feel like they're leaning into pitch-black humour rather than being like "OMG this is so dark and gritty, unlike other sissy stories for babies, doesn't this miserable universe reflect how mature I am?"

I think of it similarly to how in the 70s and 80s Judge Dredd was blatantly satirical and used its dark humour to show how Mega City One was a crapsack world. But then in the 90s edgelord writers like Mark Millar and Garth Ennis took away a lot of the irony in stories like Judgement Day and Inferno and it just felt like it was glorifying the fascism at that point.

This seems right to me, too.


GW doesn’t really want to deal with any of those social issues, it’s pulp edgy rather than handle anything with grace or care. I would say it was a great deal of players that pushed it that way.
Over the years players never talked about the satire or anything of the sort in the setting, more hyping it up as the best setting ever.
The edgy story’s really are what a lot of the boys seem to want, and push for.
I would say the pure power fantasy that space marines get now, makes it almost impossible to go back.
The shows that are more Woke, since people throw that word up, are the ones that are doing what seem to be wanted. Dealing with these issues and pushing them though narrative, jokes and humour.
It’s the fear of there main demographic not responding to it well that means GW is hesitant to follow though with there themes.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
40K 2nd era did it right. Dystopian future in which everybody was more or less serious with the Orks acting as comic relief. Although once they squatted the Orks' humour in 3rd the tone of the setting went downhill fast because everybody was seemingly in a competition for being a stone-faced mudstick.
At least you had the Catachans emulating 80s action movie heroes for entertainment. Though I also need to give credit for the Imperial propaganda material in 3rd which explained the environment to the players. Special mention goes to the info letters every citizen of the IoM was given in case of Tyranid incursion. Those were pretty heartless.

Agreed.
Life within and as a more or less cognizant contributing member of a genocidal propaganda machine worshipping some husk taking a 10k year dump on chaos was an angle now lost even on the Regimental Standard. Tropes and memes were exploited, successfully, in indirect commentary of then-contemporary culture. 40k was inclusive as a landscape for sci-fantasy narrative forging. Now everything is spelled wrong and is universe specific such that one might expect cow elves in space to be next.
The current iteration reflects also current sensitivities to satire, being that none is tolerated and all is literal e.g. the wokification of 40k e.g. gender and racial representation, as if the idea wasn’t to imagine a completely unjust world and along with it all the bureaucratic absurdities needed to support it in the first place. Next we know, the emperor will offer tyrannids green cards and public support due to their being underrepresented in the all too human corpus of the imperium


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Gimme grimdark but ironic any day. Not necessarily saying that they have to be winking at us outright with everything, but when the universe is at its most miserable it should feel like they're leaning into pitch-black humour rather than being like "OMG this is so dark and gritty, unlike other sissy stories for babies, doesn't this miserable universe reflect how mature I am?"

I think of it similarly to how in the 70s and 80s Judge Dredd was blatantly satirical and used its dark humour to show how Mega City One was a crapsack world. But then in the 90s edgelord writers like Mark Millar and Garth Ennis took away a lot of the irony in stories like Judgement Day and Inferno and it just felt like it was glorifying the fascism at that point.

This seems right to me, too.


GW doesn’t really want to deal with any of those social issues, it’s pulp edgy rather than handle anything with grace or care. I would say it was a great deal of players that pushed it that way.
Over the years players never talked about the satire or anything of the sort in the setting, more hyping it up as the best setting ever.
The edgy story’s really are what a lot of the boys seem to want, and push for.
I would say the pure power fantasy that space marines get now, makes it almost impossible to go back.
The shows that are more Woke, since people throw that word up, are the ones that are doing what seem to be wanted. Dealing with these issues and pushing them though narrative, jokes and humour.
It’s the fear of there main demographic not responding to it well that means GW is hesitant to follow though with there themes.


Woke garbage ruined star wars

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 01:47:01


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 02:18:19


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





I mean one of the things that made the final movie so bad was an unwillingness to commit to their neo-nazi/school shooter antagonist because of how popular he turned out to be with young 'uns, instead scrambling to put together an anemic and uninspiring "redemption". Being more committed to a political message would have made for a better story.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 02:29:09


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think many have hit it on the head; 40k is too big to have a single, unified tone. There are crime stories, horror stories and war stories, all coexisting within the background. I hope this will continue, and I think it will; the press around Warhammer+ seems to suggest that they are looking to show the galaxy from all angles- from points of view and narrators of every species and all points on the spectrum of reliability.

As for notions of satire, they are often in the eye of the beholder. If you believe that the world is becoming too PC for satire, chances are you aren't going to see it even when it is present. I mean, we're in the late stages of our Pandemic here in the really real world, and over in Charadon, it's Papa Nurgle who's rocking the Imperium. Many of the contagions are accelerated by the systemic incompetence of the Imperial response.

And yet satire is dead because... What? Because Sisters are getting air time and there's a black guy on the cover of a BL book? Because Guilliman?

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


Yeah of course Rey is a deep, well written character and the films show a deep and clear character development.

No really Luke wokewalker makes sense being an abject emo coward

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


Yeah of course Rey is a deep, well written character and the films show a deep and clear character development.

No really Luke wokewalker makes sense being an abject emo coward


Very first movie, like the one Lucas made…
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


You believe the satire of 40k doesn't work because you personally make toxic generalised assumptions about the fanbase.

How do you want me to address that other than you REALLY don't understand satire?

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


You believe the satire of 40k doesn't work because you personally make toxic generalised assumptions about the fanbase.

How do you want me to address that other than you REALLY don't understand satire?


Some of the fan base are just that, not all. In fact a lot aren’t, but a very loud portion are.
And you should tell me why I don’t understand satire, or which Satire I don’t understand.
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

The sequel trilogy has notable writing issues, mostly a product of a lack of an unified creative vision (and that JJ Abrams is a hack), but that has nothing to do with "wokeness".

Funnily enough, Lucas' obsession with political exposition is an issue in the prequel trilogy, so you could actually say wokeness is an issue of the prequels. Thinking about it, in many ways Lucas is the stereotypical woke author: a man of vision, well aware of political issues he wants to address, but with no real ability to write about those issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 03:32:05


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:


Very first movie, like the one Lucas made…


I find your posts very zen

When you have no argument - state the premise without stating the premise





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tyran wrote:
The sequel trilogy has notable writing issues, mostly a product of a lack of an unified creative vision (and that JJ Abrams is a hack), but that has nothing to do with "wokeness".


Yeah I'm sure the mary sue syndrome comes down to "creative vision" and not directly from wokeness.........

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/25 03:40:16


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Tyran wrote:
The sequel trilogy has notable writing issues, mostly a product of a lack of an unified creative vision (and that JJ Abrams is a hack), but that has nothing to do with "wokeness".

Funnily enough, Lucas' obsession with political exposition is an issue in the prequel trilogy, so you could actually say wokeness is an issue of the prequels. Thinking about it, in many ways Lucas is the stereotypical woke author: a man of vision, well aware of political issues he wants to address, but with no real ability to write about those issues.


Lucas I think worked best when he had someone there who understands his ideas, but to direct him and offer up other alternatives.
If you look at interviews back then, it seems often that the Star Wars we got was a huge group effort rather than a single person making it happen. (Well all movies are a huge group effort, but in the creative from the top down I mean. English is hard lol )* edit*
I actually really like him, even if he stumbles a lot. JJ Abrams I don’t think I like his work, didn’t he do the Star trek films as well. I didn’t like those so much ether >.< felt like he didn’t like Star Trek.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 03:46:07


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





 Tyran wrote:
Funnily enough, Lucas' obsession with political exposition is an issue in the prequel trilogy, so you could actually say wokeness is an issue of the prequels. Thinking about it, in many ways Lucas is the stereotypical woke author: a man of vision, well aware of political issues he wants to address, but with no real ability to write about those issues.

Is it? The collapse of a democracy into fascism was the good part of the prequels. "So this is how liberty dies: with thunderous applause" is one of the best lines in the whole series. It was... pretty much everything else that fell flat. Particularly the romance plot. Gotta love when a romance plot is so bad it doubles as character assassination for the female participant.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


You believe the satire of 40k doesn't work because you personally make toxic generalised assumptions about the fanbase.

How do you want me to address that other than you REALLY don't understand satire?


Some of the fan base are just that, not all. In fact a lot aren’t, but a very loud portion are.
And you should tell me why I don’t understand satire, or which Satire I don’t understand.


You don't understand satire because you subscribe and insist upon a belief that it only "works" if a target audience "gets it". Basically you're saying that audience is more important aspect of satire than the content of satire itself. Which is a rubbish argument which makes no sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 03:53:02


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

 GoldenHorde wrote:

Yeah I'm sure the mary sue syndrome comes down to "creative vision" and not directly from wokeness.........

I'm pretty sure you don't even know what a Mary Sue is.

But yes, Rey's issues as a character come from conflicting creative visions, with the most obvious one being her search of her origin going from a mystery box, to coming from nothing, to suddenly Palpatine's granddaughter.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


You believe the satire of 40k doesn't work because you personally make toxic generalised assumptions about the fanbase.

How do you want me to address that other than you REALLY don't understand satire?


Some of the fan base are just that, not all. In fact a lot aren’t, but a very loud portion are.
And you should tell me why I don’t understand satire, or which Satire I don’t understand.


You don't understand satire because you subscribe and insist upon a belief that it only "works" if a target audience "gets it". Basically you're saying that audience is more important aspect of satire than the content of satire itself. Which is a rubbish argument which makes no sense.


If the target audience don’t get it, then it doesn’t matter if it was good. They will just be confused of miss it.
It’s why all these big corps don’t use it, the groups and there main audience are not really understanding of the social issues of the satire itself.
It’s also requires a heavy social commentary which often is at odds with big corporate goals.
The Audience is a huge aspect of importance when discussing why 40k tones down there setting.
It’s also why a lot of the old stuff falls a bit flat now, in some cases it’s out of date, in others it’s people not understanding there subject well enough.
40k is way more serious now, and comes of really edgy. It’s all about that Rule of Cool.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





RE: Star Wars:

Anyone who complains about Rey's lack of depth or anyone's acting ability really needs to watch A New Hope again.

Luke's character is the most vapid construct I've ever seen, and Hamill's acting was at least as bad as Jake Lloyd's or Hayden Christensen's. This is because the fault in Star Wars movies is more Lucas' directing than anyone's acting.

Lucas should have stuck to writing and producing- he is excellent at both of these, and producing in particular.

I remember seeing the teaser trailer for Force Awakens. When we saw Skywalker's silent brooding in the trailer, I remember turning to my wife and saying, "Hamill just did more acting in fifteen seconds without speaking a single word than he did in the entire classic trilogy."

I had trouble with Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith- and none of that trouble had anything to do with political correctness- it was all in the directing. Other than that? I've liked every Star Wars movie I've ever seen. I thought the Disney Trilogy was fine- certainly liked it better than the last two in the prequel trilogy.

I think a lot of people saw the classic trilogy in their formative years, and "grew up with the movies." As such, we related to the characters; the growth we think we saw in the characters is our own growth which we projected onto them. By the time we saw any of the work that came after, we were no longer projecting.

Most of the kids in the theatre with us, who were going through their formative years at the time? Well, they'll probably remember the prequel and Disney movies the same way we remember the classic trilogy.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 04:18:10


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Kinda hard for "woke garbage" to have ruined Star Wars, when the sequel trilogy is pretty much the definition of a corporation playing it safe, at least when it comes to social issues.

I mean, what is so woke about the sequel trilogy? Is it that a woman is the protagonist? is this the 1800's? Is it that there is a black guy (who btw is criminally underutilized)? Have you been living under a rock since the end of WW2? Under that definition 40k always has been woke.

Really, in what sense of the world is the sequel trilogy woke? Little reminder that the sequel trilogy was released on both Russia and China, which are socially far more conservative than anywhere in the western hemisphere, and that Disney really wants that Russian and Chinese money.





Basically the self confused woke agenda absolutely shitted on the SW universe, the characters and the lore in every way imaginable.


Lol nope, for satire and tone to work. The people targeted need to understand social issues. Star Wars was playing it safe, and too many nerds have little to no understanding of social issues as it is.
40k and GW are the same, you cannot have satire if the target audience don’t understand the issues presented.
It’s why so many players think of the imperium as the good guys, and the horror that is space marines is really just a power fantasy now.
40k wasn’t the best for it back in the day, but you can’t go back if a huge portion of that group don’t even understand it.


I think there's a strong projection on your part here in terms of social awareness when you generalise upon "nerds".
Perhaps your comments regarding a lock of social awareness apply mostly to yourself?


Starwars is impressively Woke from the very first movie, the prequel trilogy is full off it.
And nerds, well I am rather Nerdy but nope. I understand a lot of social issues, it’s why I made that response. For the Grim dark setting and satire that was 40k to work, the target audience. Which I am not actually not in. Needs to understand it.

Your none reply doesn’t really address anything I said.


You believe the satire of 40k doesn't work because you personally make toxic generalised assumptions about the fanbase.

How do you want me to address that other than you REALLY don't understand satire?


Some of the fan base are just that, not all. In fact a lot aren’t, but a very loud portion are.
And you should tell me why I don’t understand satire, or which Satire I don’t understand.


You don't understand satire because you subscribe and insist upon a belief that it only "works" if a target audience "gets it". Basically you're saying that audience is more important aspect of satire than the content of satire itself. Which is a rubbish argument which makes no sense.


If the target audience don’t get it, then it doesn’t matter if it was good. They will just be confused of miss it.
It’s why all these big corps don’t use it, the groups and there main audience are not really understanding of the social issues of the satire itself.
It’s also requires a heavy social commentary which often is at odds with big corporate goals.
The Audience is a huge aspect of importance when discussing why 40k tones down there setting.
It’s also why a lot of the old stuff falls a bit flat now, in some cases it’s out of date, in others it’s people not understanding there subject well enough.
40k is way more serious now, and comes of really edgy. It’s all about that Rule of Cool.


I have been playing 40k for a long long time and the presumption that satire was inserted into 40k with a "target audience" misses the point entirely.
I contend that the satire that was put into the game was never done with an intention to directly speak to an audience. Think of it as a tangential inclusion or feature.

The satire in the lore largely has remained unchanged over the years..The fact that the satire may have hit its threshold or peak does not mean it is not there.

You confuse audience with content.

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
 
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