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Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I think this was true... until Stupid Succubus (which TBF got nerfed). Until Enriched Rounds and Galvanic Volley. And if we look back at 8th, there was stuff like the Goonhammer Iron Hands build.

7th is easy to meme on, but if we're being fair, there are still plenty of absurdly broken builds that have cropped up post 7th.

Oh for sure, IH 8.5 was bad, but was it undercosted Wraithknight with D-Cannons bad? Or Invisibility on a super friends deathstar bad? I think 7th still takes the cake with most absurdly broken units/combos. I think there has been some extremely good stuff in 8th and 9th but nothing that quite reaches the extremes of 7th.

My thought is which is a worse scenario. An edition where 3 Factions are bonkers? Or an edition where half the factions are so good you hate to play against them with an underpowered codex? To be honest I'm not sure which one feels worse as a player. It's all hypothetical though, while powercreep between 8th and 9th is real there hasn't really been a 'bad' codex so far. Everything is getting more powerful (and more complicated), I thought for sure by now we'd get a completely underwhelming codex. Every new codex gets doom and gloom I'm talking about one that is universally derided as double plus ungood.


If anything 8th and 9th at least has a relatively quick turn around on FAQing the obviously broken stuff and the nerf bat gets brought down very frequently.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope






 Strg Alt wrote:
There is an easy solution to the problem:

Play Oldhammer. Now you never have to buy codexes and new editions again. What joy! Doing it since end of 5th.


This and horus heresy. The difficulty is convincing new people to play that way in my experience. For some reason people who don't even play in tournaments insist on adhering to whatever standards their favorite gt and gw put out. And as an aside, I would buy the books if they had good writing/art but they're crap.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




PenitentJake wrote:
Yeah, we can have this conversation again in January after 5 more dexes are out. Making a judgement about an edition before half its dexes are out is premature at best.



"We have to wait and see for at least 18 months to make a judgment about a new edition" kinda says it all re: how successfully GW has cultivated extremely low expectations.

No, we don't. The game may or may not be better in January than it is now; that doesn't change what it is like now. They had a good thing going in 9th, then tossed it into the toilet with Drukhari and Ad Mech. Orks presumably won't be as bad as either of those because frankly how could you? But the game is broken right now, and GW broke it. And it's not about "waiting and seeing," because it wasn't broken before Drukhari. The game's in a far worse spot than it was 5 months ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/25 23:41:15


 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





Voss wrote:
'Worst point since 7th edition' is a pretty low bar. That's a couple years and a beta test ruleset.

It's basically only competing with the Index era and the Iron Hands meta... playing Necrons I'm a lot happier now than I was in either of those metas, that's for sure.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Not sure how balance is bad if every single 9th Ed Codex has been good against the other 9th Ed Codexes. Personally I'm quite happy that my games aren't over during the list building phase like in 6th and 7th. Oh you're playing a 6th Edition Codex against my 4th, OK thats great. Oh what you're playing Iyanden with 15 Wraithguard and two Wraithknights, oh boy this is going to be fun.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Have you considered not being a meta chaser and playing with like-minded players? Just a thought.
I checked, and you were the first person in the thread to mention 'meta'.

Odd thing, then, to accuse the OP of 'meta-chasing'.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
Have you considered not being a meta chaser and playing with like-minded players? Just a thought.
I checked, and you were the first person in the thread to mention 'meta'.

Odd thing, then, to accuse the OP of 'meta-chasing'.


I can't extrapolate that from him talking about tournament win rates? C'mon, mang.

Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in us
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 Gert wrote:
Not sure how balance is bad if every single 9th Ed Codex has been good against the other 9th Ed Codexes. Personally I'm quite happy that my games aren't over during the list building phase like in 6th and 7th. Oh you're playing a 6th Edition Codex against my 4th, OK thats great. Oh what you're playing Iyanden with 15 Wraithguard and two Wraithknights, oh boy this is going to be fun.


I think this just comes down to the differences between the level of competition you’ve played then and now narrowing between your own skill gap. You’re probably just a more competitive player now and/or the people you are playing are less so than they where then.

From my standard games, going in and seeing a bunch of raiders or chicken walkers with 20 man ranger squad supports, feels like equivalent to being down a bishop or rook in chess. Certainly not impossible to overcome if I believe I can play much better than my opponent, but a massive disadvantage that’s going to be too much for me to handle against a evenly marched player.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 00:21:19


 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





Salt donkey wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Not sure how balance is bad if every single 9th Ed Codex has been good against the other 9th Ed Codexes. Personally I'm quite happy that my games aren't over during the list building phase like in 6th and 7th. Oh you're playing a 6th Edition Codex against my 4th, OK thats great. Oh what you're playing Iyanden with 15 Wraithguard and two Wraithknights, oh boy this is going to be fun.


I think this just comes down to the differences between the level of competition you’ve played then and now narrowing between your own skill gap. You’re probably just a more competitive player now and/or the people you are playing are less so than they where then.

From my standard games, going in and seeing a bunch of raiders or chicken walkers with 20 man ranger squad supports, feels like equivalent to being down a bishop or rook in chess. Certainly not impossible to overcome if I believe I can play much better than my opponent, but a massive disadvantage that’s going to be too much for me to handle against a evenly marched player.


Listen, OP. I already said this once. Talk to your opponent and ask them to par their list down.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 03:03:59


Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I 100% guarantee that I have not increased my skills since 6th Edition. I played 9th Ed Deathwatch against 8th Ed T'au and got my bricks flipped.
The point I was trying to make is that even if I was playing a relatively good 7th Edition army like Daemonkin where I got bonuses for dying, fighting Iyanden Wraith lists with D-Flamers, Ynarri shenanigans or formations with 250pts of free stuff was still utterly awful and the game would usually be decided before the first model was put down. I haven't had that in 8th or 9th so far. 9th Codexes might be superior to 8th Codexes but at least the 8th Codexes aren't 3 editions out of date like the Orks had for about half of 7th Edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 00:39:48


 
   
Made in us
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NE Ohio, USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Yeah, we can have this conversation again in January after 5 more dexes are out. Making a judgement about an edition before half its dexes are out is premature at best.



"We have to wait and see for at least 18 months to make a judgment about a new edition" kinda says it all re: how successfully GW has cultivated extremely low expectations.

No, we don't. The game may or may not be better in January than it is now; that doesn't change what it is like now. They had a good thing going in 9th, then tossed it into the toilet with Drukhari and Ad Mech. Orks presumably won't be as bad as either of those because frankly how could you? But the game is broken right now, and GW broke it. And it's not about "waiting and seeing," because it wasn't broken before Drukhari. The game's in a far worse spot than it was 5 months ago.


And you know what? If you don't play against Drukhari or AdMech (& actually only against specific builds of either of them) the games still not broken.
EX;
Whatever the horrors of the Drukhari? Guess what? They had no effect on my most recent game where my Necrons faced off against some SM.
Likewise, when I encounter my buddies Kataphron based AdMech in our current Crusade? I seriously doubt the thought "OMG! This is broken" will ever cross my mind.
And in a few months when I get my Drukhari free* Drukari force onto the table? Aint nobody gonna be crying about getting mauled by Raiders/Succubus/etc.
(* I HAVE to have 1 elf in the list, own 1 elf model, & bring said model to the games - because I can't play without a HQ unit. Fortunately I can just throw him in Strat Reserve & ignore him most of the time. Otherwise it's all Talos/Cronos)
   
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The saving grace of 7th was that a lot of the armies had gobs of crazy gak to bring to the table. But it made for totally inaccessible gaming if both people weren't playing with the same level of bonkers.

Balance wise I feel like 8th was worse than current 9th in the post Marine 2.0 period, but alot of GWs trends have just really turned me off the game since then. I was looking forward to 9th, but I dislike the way it's been handled.

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The Wastes of Krieg

Rules seem simple compared to previous editions. One armor value instead of multiple for different sides, no blast templates needed to use certain weapons…
   
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Macon, GA

I think there are two lines of argument, and while one is clearly true but not necessarily bad, the other is murkier but certainly bad. On one hand, the game continues to layers rules and buffs over armies, turning the game into a form of intellectual sumo, where the goal is simply remember everything you have going. I think that's hard to argue against, but some people might like that.

As for balance.. nobody will ever agree. Even in the depths of times where everybody looks back and sees imbalance, people argued that the game was fine. We have more data now, but the exact same arguments that occurred 20 years ago still occur. The other issue is that really high end 40k isn't very indicative of general play, but nuggets of that play do filter down to casual or even newbie play. Tools that are easy to use, and have little counterplay, are probably on the whole bad for the game.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
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DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Rules seem simple compared to previous editions. One armor value instead of multiple for different sides, no blast templates needed to use certain weapons…


Eh. On one hand older editions have blasts, armour facings, and USRs; on the other hand 8th/9th has rerolls, auras, stratagems, and no USRs. I don't think the game's gotten any simpler.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Macon, GA

 AnomanderRake wrote:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Rules seem simple compared to previous editions. One armor value instead of multiple for different sides, no blast templates needed to use certain weapons…


Eh. On one hand older editions have blasts, armour facings, and USRs; on the other hand 8th/9th has rerolls, auras, stratagems, and no USRs. I don't think the game's gotten any simpler.


the core rules are far simpler than at any point, but the layers of rules that can affect a unit are deeper than I've ever seen.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Bloat of rules upon more layered rules does not make the game more complex. Just makes it more adminy...

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Strg Alt wrote:
There is an easy solution to the problem:

Play Oldhammer. Now you never have to buy codexes and new editions again. What joy! Doing it since end of 5th.


sure except 5th edition had it's power codices too. that said I find a lot of the time these complaints are "MY ARMY ISN'T OP!"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




ccs wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Yeah, we can have this conversation again in January after 5 more dexes are out. Making a judgement about an edition before half its dexes are out is premature at best.



"We have to wait and see for at least 18 months to make a judgment about a new edition" kinda says it all re: how successfully GW has cultivated extremely low expectations.

No, we don't. The game may or may not be better in January than it is now; that doesn't change what it is like now. They had a good thing going in 9th, then tossed it into the toilet with Drukhari and Ad Mech. Orks presumably won't be as bad as either of those because frankly how could you? But the game is broken right now, and GW broke it. And it's not about "waiting and seeing," because it wasn't broken before Drukhari. The game's in a far worse spot than it was 5 months ago.


And you know what? If you don't play against Drukhari or AdMech (& actually only against specific builds of either of them) the games still not broken.
EX;
Whatever the horrors of the Drukhari? Guess what? They had no effect on my most recent game where my Necrons faced off against some SM.
Likewise, when I encounter my buddies Kataphron based AdMech in our current Crusade? I seriously doubt the thought "OMG! This is broken" will ever cross my mind.
And in a few months when I get my Drukhari free* Drukari force onto the table? Aint nobody gonna be crying about getting mauled by Raiders/Succubus/etc.
(* I HAVE to have 1 elf in the list, own 1 elf model, & bring said model to the games - because I can't play without a HQ unit. Fortunately I can just throw him in Strat Reserve & ignore him most of the time. Otherwise it's all Talos/Cronos)


I assumed it was obvious my comment was about the competitive game. Yes, of course, if you operate in an environment where people deliberately shy away from bringing the best lists, the terrible imbalance GW has introduced into the game with two horribly overtuned codexes is less of a detriment. And the base game of 9th is better than 7th. But as a competitive game, 40k is as wrecked right now as it ever has been in the modern era.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Cuz it's not a competitive game, it's a vehicle to sell models.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





ccs wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Yeah, we can have this conversation again in January after 5 more dexes are out. Making a judgement about an edition before half its dexes are out is premature at best.



"We have to wait and see for at least 18 months to make a judgment about a new edition" kinda says it all re: how successfully GW has cultivated extremely low expectations.

No, we don't. The game may or may not be better in January than it is now; that doesn't change what it is like now. They had a good thing going in 9th, then tossed it into the toilet with Drukhari and Ad Mech. Orks presumably won't be as bad as either of those because frankly how could you? But the game is broken right now, and GW broke it. And it's not about "waiting and seeing," because it wasn't broken before Drukhari. The game's in a far worse spot than it was 5 months ago.


And you know what? If you don't play against Drukhari or AdMech (& actually only against specific builds of either of them) the games still not broken.
EX;
Whatever the horrors of the Drukhari? Guess what? They had no effect on my most recent game where my Necrons faced off against some SM.
Likewise, when I encounter my buddies Kataphron based AdMech in our current Crusade? I seriously doubt the thought "OMG! This is broken" will ever cross my mind.
And in a few months when I get my Drukhari free* Drukari force onto the table? Aint nobody gonna be crying about getting mauled by Raiders/Succubus/etc.
(* I HAVE to have 1 elf in the list, own 1 elf model, & bring said model to the games - because I can't play without a HQ unit. Fortunately I can just throw him in Strat Reserve & ignore him most of the time. Otherwise it's all Talos/Cronos)


and before drukhari and admech people bitched whined and moaned about space marines. seriously, go back 6 months ago and you'll see the same "OMG IT'S BROKEN AND THE GAME IUS AWEFUL!" only instead f admech and drukhari it's space marines.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

yukishiro1 wrote:
ccs wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Yeah, we can have this conversation again in January after 5 more dexes are out. Making a judgement about an edition before half its dexes are out is premature at best.



"We have to wait and see for at least 18 months to make a judgment about a new edition" kinda says it all re: how successfully GW has cultivated extremely low expectations.

No, we don't. The game may or may not be better in January than it is now; that doesn't change what it is like now. They had a good thing going in 9th, then tossed it into the toilet with Drukhari and Ad Mech. Orks presumably won't be as bad as either of those because frankly how could you? But the game is broken right now, and GW broke it. And it's not about "waiting and seeing," because it wasn't broken before Drukhari. The game's in a far worse spot than it was 5 months ago.


And you know what? If you don't play against Drukhari or AdMech (& actually only against specific builds of either of them) the games still not broken.
EX;
Whatever the horrors of the Drukhari? Guess what? They had no effect on my most recent game where my Necrons faced off against some SM.
Likewise, when I encounter my buddies Kataphron based AdMech in our current Crusade? I seriously doubt the thought "OMG! This is broken" will ever cross my mind.
And in a few months when I get my Drukhari free* Drukari force onto the table? Aint nobody gonna be crying about getting mauled by Raiders/Succubus/etc.
(* I HAVE to have 1 elf in the list, own 1 elf model, & bring said model to the games - because I can't play without a HQ unit. Fortunately I can just throw him in Strat Reserve & ignore him most of the time. Otherwise it's all Talos/Cronos)


I assumed it was obvious my comment was about the competitive game. Yes, of course, if you operate in an environment where people deliberately shy away from bringing the best lists, the terrible imbalance GW has introduced into the game with two horribly overtuned codexes is less of a detriment. And the base game of 9th is better than 7th. But as a competitive game, 40k is as wrecked right now as it ever has been in the modern era.


Well thankfully competitive 40k is not the game.
It's merely one way to play. And a pretty poor one at that since no edition of 40k, WHFB, or AOS, has ever been well suited to the task (and some less so) - no matter the lip service paid to it atm.
The game is not broken. How you're choosing to to play it on the other hand....

As for deliberately shying away from bringing the best lists? BS. We're just making whatever we think is fun to build/paint/play.
Game works pretty well.
   
Made in us
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If you're not interested in competitive play that's totally fine. I certainly won't tell you the way you choose to play the game is wrong or "broken" - that would be rude.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 05:52:16


 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 Polonius wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote:
Rules seem simple compared to previous editions. One armor value instead of multiple for different sides, no blast templates needed to use certain weapons…


Eh. On one hand older editions have blasts, armour facings, and USRs; on the other hand 8th/9th has rerolls, auras, stratagems, and no USRs. I don't think the game's gotten any simpler.


the core rules are far simpler than at any point, but the layers of rules that can affect a unit are deeper than I've ever seen.


40k is the Skyrim of tabletop games. Wide as an ocean but as deep as puddle. Calling 40k deep is insulting to games with actual depth. Any "depth" 40k has is just the illusion of choice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 06:34:14



 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






ccs wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Yeah, we can have this conversation again in January after 5 more dexes are out. Making a judgement about an edition before half its dexes are out is premature at best.



"We have to wait and see for at least 18 months to make a judgment about a new edition" kinda says it all re: how successfully GW has cultivated extremely low expectations.

No, we don't. The game may or may not be better in January than it is now; that doesn't change what it is like now. They had a good thing going in 9th, then tossed it into the toilet with Drukhari and Ad Mech. Orks presumably won't be as bad as either of those because frankly how could you? But the game is broken right now, and GW broke it. And it's not about "waiting and seeing," because it wasn't broken before Drukhari. The game's in a far worse spot than it was 5 months ago.


And you know what? If you don't play against Drukhari or AdMech (& actually only against specific builds of either of them) the games still not broken.
EX;
Whatever the horrors of the Drukhari? Guess what? They had no effect on my most recent game where my Necrons faced off against some SM.
Likewise, when I encounter my buddies Kataphron based AdMech in our current Crusade? I seriously doubt the thought "OMG! This is broken" will ever cross my mind.


This. When your opponents aren't chasing the meta and have the best of the best available immediately but only buy and paint at normal people's speed, even drukhari and admech are prefectly reasonable opponents - assuming you are piloting a 9th edition codex yourself.
Crusade helps with this in an unexpected way - in the beginning you don't have enough PL for the power lists, and if you build towards such a list, the nerf might come before you complete it and you are now "stuck" with just mediocre units that gathered up all the battle honors.from your battles so far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:30:34


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
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washington state USA

I would tweak it just a bit-yes formation spam was the death of 7th but i would say it is in the worst place it has been since 6th as the worst rule set GW has put out. 7th was actually an improvement over it.

As some previous posters have pointed out going back and playing older editions is just fine. our group prefers 5th edition core rules and we have loads of fun with it.

An interesting point came up in an industry related stream i was watching that theorized that GW has seen the writing on the wall with things like 3d printing and free online resources and may be looking to make as much as they can off the tabletop game in the short term before they flush the entire thing in short order and focus on what they can control via warhammer+/video game IPs and the like.

Effectively squatting the entire tabletop wargaming community related to the warhammer IP.

Let us not forget the GW line from the last decade or so-"they are a model company first that happens to have a game attached to the model line."

What happens when they can no longer compete as a model company when somebody can 3d print any design they like for 28mm toy soldiers for about $0.10 each and large vehicle equal in size to a leman russ tank or predator for as little as $5.00 in raw materials. making the cost of buying the printer negligible at best.




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But the problem is not just dark eldar and ad mecha, but the fact that in order to have fun games people playing other factions, who have 9th ed or working codex adjust, or try to adjust to playing against them. If someone sees how ad mecha or dark eldar lists looked a few months ago, and started on that they, they would be buying models based on what could let them keep up or try to keep up with those armies. This means that the armies that can not do it, either require super specific lists , which often are just tournament lists, or they can't adjust at all, and then they have the options of investing a lot of money in to an army that will not work or some sort of miracles to happen.

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I really feel like people just need to have conversations with their regular opponents more often. A solid 60% of problems I see could be solved by a 5 minute conversation with your opponent to ask them to tone down their list. Personally I've been trying to vary my lists a lot more by playing smaller games so I'm not using my whole collection every single time.
I also feel like all the talk about combos and buff stacking is a bit weird because that's been my experience of 40k since like 5th Ed. The Wombo Combos have always been there, just not in the same way as before. Deathstars, Decurions, Super Friends, and atrociously balanced summoning rules from 5th-7th are some just off the top of my head.

The whole "3d printing will kill GW" thing is a joke to me. I have a lot of hobby time due to current circumstances but working full time with limited hobby? I don't have time to learn to 3d print or wait for models to print when I can just go to a GW and buy things that I can assemble fairly easily. Moreover, what 10-13 year old (average start age for Warhammer in my experience) or indeed their parents are going to buy a 3d printer? My friend who has no commitments can afford to sit around and print parts or models all day, the rest of our group doesn't have that luxury.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 07:45:56


 
   
Made in gb
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot




UK

Really I'd say it's only Admech that are an actual problem currently.

Yes, Drukhari are strong and some of the Ork points costs look insane, but those are easy fixes. Drukhari had the worst of their exploits FAQ'd and now all that's a problem with them is points costs on a few units still. Drukhari players still enjoy playing the army and the book itself is remarkably well internally-balanced with a lot of options and flavour without being needlessly complex. It's a great book in that respect, as is the Sororitas one.

Admech though? Their issues go deeper than just points costs. They need a fundamental restructuring and redesign before the power level of the army can even really be addressed and even then I have yet to talk to an Admech player, comp or casual, that actually likes playing the new book. It doesn't matter that it's powerful; they literally don't enjoy playing it which is a huge blunder on GW's part.

The most damning thing said about it was a competitive player I know who uses Admech. He basically said everything he liked about the army was buffed and the styles of play he preferred to use were made better and given more attention. And yet for all that he played 4 games with the new codex and has now dropped the army and gone back to his Drukhari. He finds the new book confusingly braindead and needlessly complex at the same time while being so powerful and straightforward as to be uninteresting to play. This is a sentiment I've heard a lot of Admech players put forward tbh

GW made a lot of missteps with the Necron book but Admech are the worst codex of 9th from a design POV.
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gert wrote:
I really feel like people just need to have conversations with their regular opponents more often. A solid 60% of problems I see could be solved by a 5 minute conversation with your opponent to ask them to tone down their list. Personally I've been trying to vary my lists a lot more by playing smaller games so I'm not using my whole collection every single time.
I also feel like all the talk about combos and buff stacking is a bit weird because that's been my experience of 40k since like 5th Ed. The Wombo Combos have always been there, just not in the same way as before. Deathstars, Decurions, Super Friends, and atrociously balanced summoning rules from 5th-7th are some just off the top of my head.


I think with the conversation is that GW keeps adding onto that on what needs to discuss. I have never needed much in other games, but it seems 40k requires a lot at times. As well as pregame prep and other things.
A double edged sword so to think, when we play warmachine we start it mostly off about all the cool things. And quick summery of a few specific rules if playing one of the factions with something a little odd.

It’s also crazy to think, but I think there is more combos in 40k now where it just comes outta nowhere if you where not expecting it, or a unit seems way out of whack for what it is. So it’s a big burden I see for a lot of players :(
It’s a bit of a pain the huge burden that GW seems to put on players for what seems like a lesser payoff to me.
   
 
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