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Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Sarouan wrote:

You're biased as always. All he talked about are why he did that, and indeed his fears and personnal justifications for not even trying to contact GW and have a license / deal with them.

OK, I'm not biased, in fact I've been batting pretty hard for GW recently.
This is the fault of GW's Legal Team which more concerned with protecting profits than it is with protecting the community (HOWEVER, this is their job and they have been specifically hired to protect the company. Its the form of "protection" that matters here). The Legal Team answers to the board and CEO. The cause of this event is the updated IP rules put out by GW, created by the Legal Team and signed off by a senior member of staff. The effect is mass uncertainty regarding what is and is not accepted under the new rules. Does free use from parody and satire trump the "Zero Tolerance" policy? Will the Legal Team simply tie up any proceedings until the defendant can no longer afford to defend themselves if they can even do so in the first place? Alfa specifically talks about the latter because of his family and the need to protect them. Alfa also talks about how both GW and YouTube are known for their trigger-happy copyright cannons, especially YouTube.

...it's clear that to him, GW was the one directly responsible of shutting down the TTS channel. But from the video, that's not what happened.

I mean Alfa literally says the new IP update from GW is what has caused this so....... yeah, cause and effect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 01:57:41


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 02:02:25


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






You say enraged, I say saddened and disappointed. I'm not looking to burn down GW HQ, I'm probably just going to stop buying from them and avoid Warhammer + now.
Also, note where I specifically said the uncertainty of the situation caused this. GW caused the greater uncertainty, not anyone else. Its not something limited to just the TTS crew.
   
Made in us
Poisonous Tomb Scorpion





BrianDavion wrote:
at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.


How do we really know? TTS is wildly popular. There is not a snowballs chance in hell that they don't know about it. I'm sure it's come up in many different meets across the company, even casually probably. So there is no way to know that they didn't hope this would also be an outcome of their recent decisions.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I mean the rumour was that some of the "higher ups" whatever that means, liked TTS and that's why it was left alone. Rumours aren't worth putting stock into and honestly I would believe that it was more a case of "it really isn't worth it to go after TTS". Of course GW isn't going to put out a statement or contact Alfa saying TTS is exempt because its one less thing calling GW and 40k silly when GW is trying to push the serious factor.

Just to point out that Alfa says that the recent update was the last straw and that the team has been stressed and worried about the ban-hammer for a very long time now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 02:15:34


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Gert wrote:
I mean Alfa literally says the new IP update from GW is what has caused this so....... yeah, cause and effect.
Like I said: He didn't comprehend a second of that video.

It was clearly stated why it was happening. The idea that someone can interpret that video and divorce GW's own actions from the resulting actions of TTS's creators speaks to a level of cognitive dissonance that I can't comprehend one second of.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 02:18:34


 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





BrianDavion wrote:
at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.


And people call me a white knight.


Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in us
Flashy Flashgitz




North Carolina

 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.


I thought this was about tabletop simulator too. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets threatened at some point.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

BrianDavion wrote:
at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.


That is not how a YouTube takedown works, though. He could lose a lot of money from one of those.

   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





Spoiler:
Sarouan wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:

More disturbing is your 'GW did nothing - this was all his decision' nonsense. Do you not understand the basics concepts of context? Cause and effect?

He didn't just do this out of the blue. He did this to hopefully avoid getting his channel nukes.

You claim to have watched the whole video. I claim that you failed to even slightly comprehend even a single second of it.


You're biased as always. All he talked about are why he did that, and indeed his fears and personnal justifications for not even trying to contact GW and have a license / deal with them.

The cause / effect here is he read the updated rules on GW website and decided to put his channel on hiatus. End of the story.

So when you have the OP write this :

 lord marcus wrote:

I now say GW has gone too far for me.


 lord marcus wrote:

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


...it's clear that to him, GW was the one directly responsible of shutting down the TTS channel. But from the video, that's not what happened.

That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.


Now that's it. I try to stay as far as possible from shouting matches on internet for the sake of my own health and for the sake of being as civil as possible in public. But I can't stay silent before such odious sophistry.

Of course there is a direct cause and effect between GW's policy change and the decision from the TTS team to shelve what is obviously a passion project and an important source of revenue.
To make light of the work and effort of people this way is terribly low. And for what ? Protecting the brand of a company ? It's shameful. "That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here." Do you really believe that ? Really ? No links at all ? Who could fear litigations coming from an organization with a terrible amount of resource to spend "protecting their IP".

We all know what is at stakes here: a big organization pushing it's power around purposefully. Contrarily to what many may say, this isn't about the law. GW, and every company using such methods, are using the law as a cudgel against anyone that might be (or not) harming their bottom line. While they underpay and alienate from their work the designers, artists and all of those who actually create this "IP".

These games of money are disgusting. And any company with profit as it's priority should never be given the befit of the doubt. For the sake of it's own employees and for its clients. Because it's sole purpose is to be as profitable as possible. The health of it's employee is secondary, the quality of its products is secondary, the law is secondary and its fans are secondary.

Sorry for the rant. Or if I may sound offensive. But those things are important to keep in mind and say.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:06:32


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I think Alpha makes a good point that it is not so much about the literal text of GW's policy update but how it is a part of a broader culture shift back towards the customer-unfriendly GW of the past. Really struck a chord with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
These games of money are disgusting. And any company with profit as it's priority should never be given the befit of the doubt. For the sake of it's own employees and for its clients. Because it's sole purpose is to be as profitable as possible. The health of it's employee is secondary, the quality of its products is secondary, the law is secondary and its fans are secondary.
Technically speaking, a company with profit as it's priority in the long term would care more about those than anything else. Let's not forget that corporations are made of people and people are very capable of making very bad decisions, especially when it comes to long-term harm for short-term gain. Heck the only reason GW gets away with making so many decisions like that is their market dominance and we saw at the tail end of the Kirby days that yes, the long term cost very much exists and very much adds up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:12:33


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




These are the risks when you work on IP you don’t own.
And the risk goes way up if you make money from the project.
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
GW updating there page really doesn’t change laws, and people need to start learning them as they are becoming more important to know now in modern times.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Sarouan wrote:
That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.
The only one being dishonest here is you, and really anyone who is trying to push the "But they didn't make him do it!" line of thinking.

Again, the rest of us seem to understand the cause an effect on this, and that the actions taken by the makers of TTS are preemptive and precautionary. You seem to take that as an excuse to go "Well, technically GW had nothing to do with that, so it's all on TTS, not GW, who remain innocent and blameless and paragons of ultimate virtue and our bestest bestest friends in the whole wide world!.".

That's the true dishonesty here. But of course, you, Sarouan, are incapable of understanding that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:20:56


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.
The only one being dishonest here is you, and really anyone who is trying to push the "But they didn't make him do it!" line of thinking.

Again, the rest of us seem to understand the cause an effect on this, and that the actions taken by the makers of TTS are preemptive and precautionary. You seem to take that as an excuse to go "Well, technically GW had nothing to do with that, so it's all on TTS, not GW, who remain innocent and blameless and paragons of ultimate virtue and our bestest bestest friends in the whole wide world!.".

That's the true dishonesty here. But of course, you, Sarouan, are incapable of understanding that.

I think there is some hyperbole happening in this back and forth but I'm with you on the basic sentiment.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Hyperbole is half the fun. And I have to keep myself entertained somehow, lest I go completely off the rails.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:23:40


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Apple fox wrote:
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hyperbole is half the fun. And I have to keep myself entertained somehow, lest I go completely off the rails.
I wish I could disagree with that

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:24:43


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think Alpha makes a good point that it is not so much about the literal text of GW's policy update but how it is a part of a broader culture shift back towards the customer-unfriendly GW of the past. Really struck a chord with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
These games of money are disgusting. And any company with profit as it's priority should never be given the befit of the doubt. For the sake of it's own employees and for its clients. Because it's sole purpose is to be as profitable as possible. The health of it's employee is secondary, the quality of its products is secondary, the law is secondary and its fans are secondary.
Technically speaking, a company with profit as it's priority in the long term would care more about those than anything else. Let's not forget that corporations are made of people and people are very capable of making very bad decisions, especially when it comes to long-term harm for short-term gain. Heck the only reason GW gets away with making so many decisions like that is their market dominance and we saw at the tail end of the Kirby days that yes, the long term cost very much exists and very much adds up.


I am sorry but the likes of Adam Smith were wrong. We do not owe the quality of our products to the benevolence of their makers nor to their own interest. But to the quality of their labour and the honesty of their employer. Especially in situations of near monopoly. They have brought the sole ownership of a product from their makers through employment and benefit from it. To see the long term effect of it we need but to look at massive media conglomerates like Disney or Warner.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:26:44


-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






SMH...

"Cutting off your nose to spite your face" Holds true.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






*shrug* I think corporate leadership believes these measures will help them, and I think the consequences will build up again until they learn the same lesson again. It's a story humans keep repeating.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in fr
Spawn of Chaos





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
*shrug* I think corporate leadership believes these measures will help them, and I think the consequences will build up again until they learn the same lesson again. It's a story humans keep repeating.


Sadly these types seem to very rarely face the consequences of their own actions.

If only karma was a thing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:44:09


-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Apple fox wrote:Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Parody is one of the basic examples of fair use. It's explicitly carved out as a legal use of copyrighted material under both US and UK law.

But that doesn't mean a company can't sue you- even if the lawsuit is baseless and you will eventually win. Because if you're a normal person, it will bankrupt you. And so a creator of what is almost certainly legally-protected content is going on indefinite hiatus in the hopes of avoiding a groundless lawsuit from a company that now seems keen to file lawsuits against creators of fan works.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
If only karma was a thing.
It is, on average. Doesn't make humans any better at seeing it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
Apple fox wrote:Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Parody is one of the basic examples of fair use. It's explicitly carved out as a legal use of copyrighted material under both US and UK law.

But that doesn't mean a company can't sue you- even if the lawsuit is baseless and you will eventually win. Because if you're a normal person, it will bankrupt you. And so a creator of what is almost certainly legally-protected content is going on indefinite hiatus in the hopes of avoiding a groundless lawsuit from a company that now seems keen to file lawsuits against creators of fan works.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
For me that classifies as intimidation, not restriction. The law doesn't restrict the content; it fails to restrict an abuse of power.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:43:24


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's true they didn't get a C&D yet. It's also true that the reason GW updated its policies is to do precisely what happened here, to scare people into giving up before GW even bothers to do anything. To suggest their decision had nothing to do with GW updating its terms and is 100% just down to them is downright absurd, and anyone seriously making that argument is effectively forfeiting any credibility they have in the discussion.

This is a great demonstration of the power that big companies have when it comes to copyright. There's no need to even go to court, they just throw their weight around and people fall into line because GW can afford to fight if they have to, and normal people can't. Not many people want to be martyrs.

P.S. This has nothing to do with tabletop simulator for all the people who are confused, thread title is pretty confusing since the acronym is much more commonly used in the hobby for the simulator.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 03:48:13


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

yukishiro1 wrote:
P.S. This has nothing to do with tabletop simulator for all the people who are confused, thread title is pretty confusing since the acronym is much more commonly used in the hobby for the simulator.
No need to worry about that. Give it a few more weeks and the thread can pull double duty.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:
Apple fox wrote:Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Parody is one of the basic examples of fair use. It's explicitly carved out as a legal use of copyrighted material under both US and UK law.

But that doesn't mean a company can't sue you- even if the lawsuit is baseless and you will eventually win. Because if you're a normal person, it will bankrupt you. And so a creator of what is almost certainly legally-protected content is going on indefinite hiatus in the hopes of avoiding a groundless lawsuit from a company that now seems keen to file lawsuits against creators of fan works.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


A lot of it is just determining if it is parody or infringement. And is specific. It’s why so many movies that are parody are also licensed or with some form of permission, saves a lot of headaches. And then you step over the line a little, it’s not a big deal.

In this case, it’s great that the laws tend to be more specific as well
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Apple fox wrote:
These are the risks when you work on IP you don’t own.
And the risk goes way up if you make money from the project.
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
GW updating there page really doesn’t change laws, and people need to start learning them as they are becoming more important to know now in modern times.


What does knowing the law have to do with it?

It doesn’t matter if a creator knows the law and abides by it 100% if some company with lawyers on retainer decides to make an issue out of it. They could financially destroy the average person before the legality even comes into play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


DBZ Abridged kept having problems with dmca takedowns and demonetization that they burned out, put up a few similar rant videos, and more or less gave up. They were part of some larger action a couple years ago by parody creators to draw attention to YouTube’s behavior. Parodies and even movie reviews keep getting pulled or demonetized for the thinnest reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 06:31:37


   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






Pretending the law isn't important seems pretty disingenuous. SLAPP lawsuits are an problem, and not just for IP issues, but we can't also just make up suits that haven't happened or pretend laws that do exist are meaningless to a discussion on a possible legal issue.


Admittedly I also thought TTS was Table Top Simulator until reading more so what do I know.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/30 06:41:29


Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




Les Etats Unis

This is pretty sucky. I hope whatever series the TTS guys work on next is as good as their first.

The best move GW could make here publicity-wise is to publicly give TTS explicit permission to continue, but that's obviously never going to happen for a variety of reasons.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

 Ahtman wrote:
Pretending the law isn't important seems pretty disingenuous. SLAPP lawsuits are an problem, and not just for IP issues, but we can't also just make up suits that haven't happened or pretend laws that do exist are meaningless to a discussion on a possible legal issue.


Admittedly I also thought TTS was Table Top Simulator until reading more so what do I know.


There’s a difference between saying it isn’t important and saying it isn’t relevant to what TTS was worried about. They have been following GW for 8 years or more, right? So, they have reason to believe GW could and would make things unpleasant for them one way or another.

   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Pretending the law isn't important seems pretty disingenuous. SLAPP lawsuits are an problem, and not just for IP issues, but we can't also just make up suits that haven't happened or pretend laws that do exist are meaningless to a discussion on a possible legal issue.


Admittedly I also thought TTS was Table Top Simulator until reading more so what do I know.


There’s a difference between saying it isn’t important and saying it isn’t relevant to what TTS was worried about. They have been following GW for 8 years or more, right? So, they have reason to believe GW could and would make things unpleasant for them one way or another.


this applies doubly so because of youtube.
It is entirely irrelevant, since the large companies can still severly damage your channel with C&D despite not being actually legaly correct, thanks to Youtubes copy right claim system.
Further youtube has no interest in stepping in less they lose their status.

So basically despite being clearly parody material, it doesn't matter if GW wants to bully you off the plattform and damage your livelyhood they have all the tools necessary.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
 
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