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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Batman beats up poor people when he beats up thugs, or minorities that may have turned to crime, as statistics and sociology often show, out of a need for money or a better life. Not every criminal BM beats up is the Joker or Catwoman, able to easily bank roll their neffarious deeds with lots of cash. Most of the common thugs he beats up are people suffering under his "perfect gotham". There was even an episode of the animated batman where he starts to beat up a black thug in front of his kids, and realizes he's just doing it to feed his family. By the end of the episode he's given him a better job and a raise.

THAT is how you fight systemic crime. Not fancy suits and Bat knives.

And Catwoman is just DC's really bad version of Black Cat.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Batman beats up poor people when he beats up thugs, or minorities that may have turned to crime
And he beats up non-poor and non-minority people for exactly the same reasons - generally because they are caught in the act of mugging/robbing/murdering someone, not because of their bank balance.


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
There was even an episode of the animated batman where he starts to beat up a black thug in front of his kids, and realizes he's just doing it to feed his family. By the end of the episode he's given him a better job and a raise.
Well that's one example of Batman going out of his way to help a poor person because he's poor, and zero examples of Batman beating up a poor person because he's poor. So... good job Batman?
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

So...if you really think through Batman's rogues gallery...isn't it almost all mobster types/crime families and batgak crazy (pun intended) homicidal maniacs?

I mean...Joker, Two-Face, Penguin, the Falcones, the Maronis, Hugo Strange, Mad Hatter, Riddler, Court of Owls, Calendar Man, Professor Pyg, Zsasz, Ra's Al Ghul, Hush, Mr. Freeze, etc...that's not exactly a list that suggests Gotham's social welfare system is to blame.



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Those no, but I think he's more meaning the henchmen who are more likely to work for those powerful crime lords.

That said in general even the henchmen are shown to be, if not overly bright, at least decently paid for the most part.

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Southeastern PA, USA

So the people working for organized crime and lunatic/terrorist/murderers like the Joker are the real victims?



That's quite a take.

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I'm rather impressed by how many henchman get up each day, look in the mirror and tell themselves something like "I can totally take Batman if he shows up at work"
   
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Batman is just easy to superficially compare to the current discussions revolving around police funding and our tendency to attack the symptoms of the problems rather than the problems themselves. Like.... I get it. It's an easy comparison to make and its also easy to point out that Batman has been doing this for nearly a century now with no lasting success, which is also the heart of the discussion on police reform. There's also just kind of the problem that Batman isn't really what we want our police to aspire to be in his current form, which is more about the action than detective work. Sadly, a good number went right past him to the Punisher.

Anyone who's actually read a comic knows that Batman doesn't really fit the "beating the poor" spin here. His criminals are rarely depicted as down on their luck and way more likely to simply be in for greed or power even at the henchmen level. Helping the needy and getting help from people on the street is often a key part of the stories.

Ultimately the problem is just that Batman's fight hasn't evolved with the times. The crime lords took up the mantle of legitimate business and these days people are seeing oppression from above as a greater threat than greed from below. It leaves Batman appearing outsmarted; his targets have maneuvered around him and now its easy to present his actions in a way that makes it seems like he's fighting on the wrong side. A new age of criminals that needs a new age of tactics.
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
And Catwoman is just DC's really bad version of Black Cat.


Catwoman, who debuted in 1940, is a bad version of Black Cat, who debuted in 1979? Interesting take.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

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I think another big aspect is that sometimes it's just fun to hold controversial positions on stuff like this, because it can make you look smarter or more socially informed than the creators of whatever you're criticizing. I don't mean that in a disparaging way; I have quite a few unpopular opinions of my own, and it's always important to be able to critique popular pieces of media, especially ones which you're fond of personally.

However, I do think Batman is the wrong target here, specifically because he's been so heavily established as a figure who does care about the common man. Another user here said on a similar thread that Batman at his core is someone who wants to prevent anyone else from suffering like he did, and I think that's an excellent summation of his character which doesn't come through in a lot of non-comic material. Of all the superheroes who you can say don't care about the common man, Batman is probably at the bottom of the list.

If you do want to critique something about the DC universe, try setting your eyes on Arkham. Maybe I simply haven't read the right comic yet, but I genuinely don't understand how there's never any real therapy going on there. All the most famous examples of attempted Arkham "therapy" (Harley Quinn, for instance) involve some recent college graduate trying to interview a supervillain for like a week before being summarily killed/driven insane/forced to leave, which doesn't exactly seem like adequate psychiatric help. Like, sure, I get that you probably aren't going to fix the Joker overnight, but you could at least, like, give Ventriloquist some medication, right? Or take Mr. Freeze, whose entire criminal motivation could probably be removed with a couple years of therapy.

It seems like there's a recurring message in most Batman stuff of "mentally unstable people are beyond help," which feels like it's a lot more important to talk about than the beating up the poor stuff since it actually might impact people's views on society. It would be genuinely nice to see more Batman villains get the help they need, but besides Gotham Girl, I honestly haven't think of any off the top of my head.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, I really need to work on eliminating crutch phrases from my vocabulary. I'm "seeming like" and "feeling like" all over in that comment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/10 19:09:36


Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
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Generally speaking, the primary problem there is "character growth will always be crushed by publisher demands to maintain the status quo".
   
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Les Etats Unis

 LunarSol wrote:
Generally speaking, the primary problem there is "character growth will always be crushed by publisher demands to maintain the status quo".


Yeah, I know. Doesn't mean it isn't sad, though.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
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 Flipsiders wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Generally speaking, the primary problem there is "character growth will always be crushed by publisher demands to maintain the status quo".


Yeah, I know. Doesn't mean it isn't sad, though.


Kid Loki's "death" is one of the most heartbreaking comments on this.
   
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 gorgon wrote:
So the people working for organized crime and lunatic/terrorist/murderers like the Joker are the real victims?



That's quite a take.


I never got when people somehow find themselves the victim of somebody without realizing conditions probably happened to put each person in the point there in. Somehow the "victims" are a tragedy of circumstance while the people that supposedly wrong them aren't.

Was Bruce not a victim of some dude shooting his parents in an alley after watching a movie? Was that dude that shot him moulded by society to be that way? Do spoiled rich kids with fake friends and real enemies as well as distant uncaring parents end up not being victims of that or should we feel like they owe us because they're rich and we aren't. Ugh I hate this selfish mentality like one group or another particularly owes you anything if you didn't even do something for them.

-----

For what it's worth Batman has been called out for going too far sometimes. Seeking revenge constantly, interrogating a dude in front of his wife and kid where the first robin ends up leaving him because of that and his at times often harsh way of dealing with villains.

I tend to prefer the Flash over Batman for this reason but to say Batman isn't more realistic (or as realistic as a dude in a bat costume and no guns acting like a super hero can be) wouldn't be fair. Also Batman does help the downtrodden at times. I know hating the rich is the cool thing to do right now but there's plenty of bad people from every group and even in the story with the penguin they show sometimes even the bad guy attempts to fix themselves even if it doesn't end up working out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/10 21:09:00


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Les Etats Unis

 LunarSol wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Generally speaking, the primary problem there is "character growth will always be crushed by publisher demands to maintain the status quo".


Yeah, I know. Doesn't mean it isn't sad, though.


Kid Loki's "death" is one of the most heartbreaking comments on this.


Not nearly as bad, but Sandman has also had a time of it. If you want an example of the fabled "villain whose motivation is poverty," he's one of the only ones you can point to. There's no reason why the guy shouldn't be working as a freelance construction worker or something by now.

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
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Dominating Dominatrix






Batman is one man in a city. Even if you were to take Batman, Robin, Tim Drake, Batgirl, Dick Greyson, and the Huntress and send them all off to patrol in different directions they are not stopping every mugging, robbery, etc etc...

The reason most criminals consider batman a boogey man they are not even sure really exists is because most of gotham has never seen him. So waking up and going to crime work isnt a question of beating batman. Because in all likelyhood you aren't even sure hes real .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/10 22:49:42



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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I have always assumed that while Batman hits criminals (in a fiscaly unbiased way) Bruce Wayne does do good works and funds charities to help the needy. Its just 'Bruce Wayne signs check for good cause' isn't as exciting as 'Batman beats up Joker'

Like the way they only show the interesting bits in montages, in lock and load ones the heros always are ready at the same time because it more exciting than one being done in two scenes and then being seen watching TV waiting for the others to finish!
   
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To those dunking on my previous post?

1. A fair dunking was dunked.

2. In my limited defence, I’m going off on-screen portrayals. For better or worse, I’ve read exactly one Batman comic, and that was an older one predating 1990.

In case anyone fancies a challenge? What I recall from it was a Lovely Old Lady running something like a school or ophanage, but that being a front for a Faginesque school of crime. The clearest thing I recall was Lovely Old Lady asking why a silencer is of no use on a revolver. The answer was too much gas escapes the chamber before it passes into the barrel.

If anyone can identify that specific story, I’ll owe you a pint!

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To those dunking on my previous post?

1. A fair dunking was dunked.

2. In my limited defence, I’m going off on-screen portrayals. For better or worse, I’ve read exactly one Batman comic, and that was an older one predating 1990.

In case anyone fancies a challenge? What I recall from it was a Lovely Old Lady running something like a school or ophanage, but that being a front for a Faginesque school of crime. The clearest thing I recall was Lovely Old Lady asking why a silencer is of no use on a revolver. The answer was too much gas escapes the chamber before it passes into the barrel.

If anyone can identify that specific story, I’ll owe you a pint!


Well when you have such a bad take on something it is rather easy to dunk on it, no getting out of that even if you acknowledge it.

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Its a fair defence that you don't really know Batman when the majority of your experience is portrayals that miss every defining characteristic of the character.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Right behind you.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

In case anyone fancies a challenge? What I recall from it was a Lovely Old Lady running something like a school or ophanage, but that being a front for a Faginesque school of crime. The clearest thing I recall was Lovely Old Lady asking why a silencer is of no use on a revolver. The answer was too much gas escapes the chamber before it passes into the barrel.

If anyone can identify that specific story, I’ll owe you a pint!

No specific story/issue(Wiki details it as #410?), but it's Ma Gunn's "School for Crime". She and the school made a reappearance in Red Hood & the Outlaws not too long ago.

We're talking 1987 for your story recollections, MDG...
   
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






1987 sounds about right! It was a,ongst a collection I scrounged up for a Scout jumble sale around 1990.

Thanks dude!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, here’s a panel from the specific story I’m recalling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/12 00:31:00


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Titans continues to have the worst version of Batman. In the first episode of this season he

Spoiler:
breaks into Arkham Asylum to murder Joker in cold blood for killing Jason Todd, then returns to the mansion to tell Dick he’s quitting being Batman and disappears to go fugitive.


Episode nine he

Spoiler:
is finally back on the show. You see him in some remote castle with only his lawyer to write his will. He then attempts to commit suicide by setting the place on fire with him inside. He’s only thwarted by an outside supernatural intervention.

 
   
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...one has to wonder if the writers behind that show have actually read the aftermath of "A Death in the Family".

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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On the plus side the Titans themselves haven’t been going around blatantly murdering people this season. I mean other than Jason of course.

 
   
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Right behind you.

 Dysartes wrote:
...one has to wonder if the writers behind that show have actually read the aftermath of "A Death in the Family".

Yes, they have.

One of the writers(Bryan Edward Hill) has actually done some of the best Batman/Bruce Wayne stuff in awhile via Batman & The Outsiders.
"Titans" is its own universe though.
   
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Titans season 1 had one of the funnest versions of Bats/Bruce in quite so time, admittedly it was a crazy version that lives in Dick's head but Iain Glen was clearly have a whale of a time doing it

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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Titans season 1 had one of the funnest versions of Bats/Bruce in quite so time, admittedly it was a crazy version that lives in Dick's head but Iain Glen was clearly have a whale of a time doing it


I loved how apparently for the majority of the season they apparently weren’t allowed to actually show him so you only ever saw him silhouetted from behind. He never spoke either, it’s was always Alfred passing along messages or Bruce leaving little written notes. It wasn’t until Dick’s nightmare at the end that you finally see Batman.

 
   
 
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