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Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 auticus wrote:
and I have to say rules wise the dragons look OP AF


I mean - if they weren't OP AF that makes it harder to move product


If this was their rationale, Gobsprakk would be godly. But instead he's a 300pt so-so utility piece that costs £89.
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





The dragon's don't seem to rate super favorably compared to say, fulminators. I could be missing something.

I guess they could be trying to move old Dracothian Guard kits?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Togusa wrote:

Anyone got the greenskins rules and have any opinions?


My 1st impressions are:
1) rules & model wise "Huh, still not inspired to make an ork army in Sigmar."
2) model wise I do like a couple of the new units - I'll look into using them as allies for my Gloomspites.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 auticus wrote:
and I have to say rules wise the dragons look OP AF


I mean - if they weren't OP AF that makes it harder to move product
If this is an argument that GW intentionally makes new units overpowered in order to sell them; It's an urban legend, overwhelmingly disproven by the evidence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/20 11:19:07


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






There's no way the new SCE models are OP. You only need to briefly look at, for example, Vanquishers to see that. Then you turn around and compare them to some 1st edition stuff, like Protectors, which are insane nuts.

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





The fun part about this is every single poster will have a different opinion on what units are strong and what units are weak, and amazingly, none of us will be correct in our assessments
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






"Nobody knows what units are good and bad" was not the hot and wrong take I was expecting to see today.

We have the points, we have the rules. The effectiveness of units isn't that obfuscated, most codexes are solved before public release date.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





To be clear on two points:
1) It was a joke.
2) We've had some spicy and opposite takes on units/tomes in this very thread (plus some others, plus Reddit)
3) This happens with literally every battletome/codex that comes out in 40k and AoS and then the first tournament happens and 99% of posters were incorrect, and then the second tournament happens and is the total opposite of the first tournament, and then a lowkey third tournament happens where Sylvaneth wins and everybody gets confused again.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






New book comes out, people look at all the cheesy combos, generally work out what's strong and what isn't

Lists are built to counter the current meta with the new rules.

Next tournament, meta starts to settle a little with some counter-counter-meta worked out. Maybe some FAQs hit and bring things more in line.

It's not so simple as 'posters online are wrong.' A unit may not tear up tournaments, but that doesn't mean it's not solid.


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






The predictions are correct more often than not. Obviously people don't get it 100% right but on the whole the community predictions are more right than wrong. That accuracy goes up significantly by cutting out those individuals who are unqualified in their assessing. Keeping an eye on long time players who have made correct predictions on the past it is relatively simple to get a handle on the basics of what is strong and what is weak.

The new dragon riders, for example, are certainly going to do well even up to the competitive point. Will exclusive dragon spam be dominating tournaments? Of course not, but no one offering a qualified opinion is going to unironically express such hyperbole in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Thadin wrote:
New book comes out, people look at all the cheesy combos, generally work out what's strong and what isn't

Lists are built to counter the current meta with the new rules.

Next tournament, meta starts to settle a little with some counter-counter-meta worked out. Maybe some FAQs hit and bring things more in line.

It's not so simple as 'posters online are wrong.' A unit may not tear up tournaments, but that doesn't mean it's not solid.
Well said. Just because something becomes less effective after showing up and doing well doesn't mean the initial prediction was wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/20 20:04:13


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





United States

 lare2 wrote:
There's no way the new SCE models are OP. You only need to briefly look at, for example, Vanquishers to see that. Then you turn around and compare them to some 1st edition stuff, like Protectors, which are insane nuts.


I was specifically talking about the Dragon riders and the two new Dragon characters. The rest of the stuff looks about as I expected it to be.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

I hear Bonesplitterz kind of suck now but Ironjawz are looking pretty dope. Is this true?
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Void__Dragon wrote:
I hear Bonesplitterz kind of suck now but Ironjawz are looking pretty dope. Is this true?
Bonesplitterz lost a lot of thematic flavor too.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Togusa wrote:
 lare2 wrote:
There's no way the new SCE models are OP. You only need to briefly look at, for example, Vanquishers to see that. Then you turn around and compare them to some 1st edition stuff, like Protectors, which are insane nuts.


I was specifically talking about the Dragon riders and the two new Dragon characters. The rest of the stuff looks about as I expected it to be.


the dragon characters are 600 points each in an army which is already pretty expensive. assuming you wanna take one of the dragon princes, an all dragon army consists of dragon prince Knight Draconious (whom must be your general) and 4 units of storm drake guard, (for a total of 10 models on the board)

I think it'd be playable but you;re going to feel EVERY unit that dies

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
I hear Bonesplitterz kind of suck now but Ironjawz are looking pretty dope. Is this true?
Bonesplitterz lost a lot of thematic flavor too.
Ah, really? That's a shame. I prefer Ironjawz but it sucks that Bonesplitterz players are losing out.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





United States

BrianDavion wrote:
Togusa wrote:
 lare2 wrote:
There's no way the new SCE models are OP. You only need to briefly look at, for example, Vanquishers to see that. Then you turn around and compare them to some 1st edition stuff, like Protectors, which are insane nuts.


I was specifically talking about the Dragon riders and the two new Dragon characters. The rest of the stuff looks about as I expected it to be.


the dragon characters are 600 points each in an army which is already pretty expensive. assuming you wanna take one of the dragon princes, an all dragon army consists of dragon prince Knight Draconious (whom must be your general) and 4 units of storm drake guard, (for a total of 10 models on the board)

I think it'd be playable but you;re going to feel EVERY unit that dies


It looks like you want to hit hard with that alpha and not get double turned. No, fortunately I don't play in the competitive crowd, so I'm looking forward to all the mid range stuff in this book.
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





Rihgu wrote:
To be clear on two points:
1) It was a joke.
2) We've had some spicy and opposite takes on units/tomes in this very thread (plus some others, plus Reddit)
3) This happens with literally every battletome/codex that comes out in 40k and AoS and then the first tournament happens and 99% of posters were incorrect, and then the second tournament happens and is the total opposite of the first tournament, and then a lowkey third tournament happens where Sylvaneth wins and everybody gets confused again.


For 3 actually the broken stuff is dirt easy to find. GW isn't exactly subtle about it.

There's reason why broken combos are found before book is even released.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 Void__Dragon wrote:
I hear Bonesplitterz kind of suck now but Ironjawz are looking pretty dope. Is this true?
I do think there is hope, as while it won't be a replacement for loss of flavor ( ) points drops on the troops would make 'splitterz mechanically viable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Togusa wrote:
 lare2 wrote:
There's no way the new SCE models are OP. You only need to briefly look at, for example, Vanquishers to see that. Then you turn around and compare them to some 1st edition stuff, like Protectors, which are insane nuts.


I was specifically talking about the Dragon riders and the two new Dragon characters. The rest of the stuff looks about as I expected it to be.


the dragon characters are 600 points each in an army which is already pretty expensive. assuming you wanna take one of the dragon princes, an all dragon army consists of dragon prince Knight Draconious (whom must be your general) and 4 units of storm drake guard, (for a total of 10 models on the board)

I think it'd be playable but you;re going to feel EVERY unit that dies
That'd be going for theme over effectiveness. As a rough estimate I'd say 5 (2/2/1) riders plus character with the rest filled in with infantry for a more competitive build.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/21 14:41:34


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

As a rookie AoS player with a decent collection of Stormcast models to start out with, I've been reading through the new battletome and just trying to figure out which models in my collection are good and which are likely shelf warmers. Having no experience with the game it's hard for me to tell what's hot and what's not. I'm still trying to figure out which Paladins unit is the best (Retributors, Protectors, or Decimators) so I know how to build my still-unbuilt kit of them.

Also, are mortal wounds a much more common and/or valuable capability in AoS compared to 40k? A specific case that makes me ask this is because the aforementioned Paladin units have the option to take up to 2 Starsoul Maces per 5 models (but the kit only includes 1 of course, feth you GW), but it seems like you're giving up a lot of strong attacks in order to deal d3 mortal wounds instead.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 87 | Current main painting project: Sisters of Battle
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





I'
m just annoyed mine hasn't even shipped yet...

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation






 ZergSmasher wrote:
As a rookie AoS player with a decent collection of Stormcast models to start out with, I've been reading through the new battletome and just trying to figure out which models in my collection are good and which are likely shelf warmers. Having no experience with the game it's hard for me to tell what's hot and what's not. I'm still trying to figure out which Paladins unit is the best (Retributors, Protectors, or Decimators) so I know how to build my still-unbuilt kit of them.

Also, are mortal wounds a much more common and/or valuable capability in AoS compared to 40k? A specific case that makes me ask this is because the aforementioned Paladin units have the option to take up to 2 Starsoul Maces per 5 models (but the kit only includes 1 of course, feth you GW), but it seems like you're giving up a lot of strong attacks in order to deal d3 mortal wounds instead.


This is very helpful. Well worth watching. It's a unit by unit run down.

https://youtu.be/iRVXjkIMa3M

Chaos | Tau | Space Wolves
NH | SCE | Nurgle
 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Same Brian.

I had hoped for a normal shipping cycle, so I could get in my Books/New models for a casual-learners tournament this saturday. Thankfully I can still teach with my pretty basic Kruleboyz list, and the store lets people use Battlescribe or borrow books for tournies.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Well finally was able to go through the whole SCE book in-detail. Others have covered the a lot same criticisms I have of the mechanical design, though I want to particularly call out a couple things;

-The chart of once-per-game command abilities taken as enhancements is a poor replacement for losing warscroll command abilities entirely.

-While bloat has been addressed quite well in some places (see below), that was not extended to warscrolls. The three basic paladin units (retributors, protectors, devestators), the dracothian guard, and the annihilators just need to be one warscroll each with different weapon options. The options are well balanced with one another (credit to GW for this) and it would simply streamline things. Once a tome gets above 50 warscrolls or so having more is a BAD thing, not something to be proud of. And for that matter Neave, Astria, and Gavriel don't need their own warscrolls. Gavriel specifically would be fantastic as another weapon option for the Lord-Celestant on foot and GW would sell more that way.

-The Path to Glory content is a straight power upgrade where SCE get to be better because they got a battletome update. That isn't fun. It is hampering Crusade in 40k, it will be a drag on PtG. It also just dumps on the named stormhosts, with the build-your-own option being far superior unless one wants named characters.



That out of the way, on to things I like!

-While I miss the extra details for units covered in previous tomes, I understand the nature of needing to fit fluff for more units into a similar amount of space. And what has been included is good; it's well written and the traditional style of making an army seem super-potent shines because SCE actually are embodiments of that. I feel like all the major stormhosts were covered well and every unit got a brief on what it is and what it does. The extra emphasis on force organization with how different chambers and conclaves work is excellent, and the implementation of fluff for the new armour is just perfect. Great work and I loved it.

-There has been a lot of consolidation and bloat-cutting that I see as a good thing. Instead of wading through a half dozen inferior artifacts/traits for every one worth taking I can tell effort was made to just have a handful of options but make them all viable. Not always successful, but it is what it is. I would say this element was actually taken too far and inclusion of some more quirky, flavorful options would have been nice. In regards to warscrolls, I love the consolidation & standardization of weapon profiles; it just makes the game easier to play on a practical level.

-I initially recoiled at the slimmed-down subfactions, but having thought through I like it. Sub-factions were becoming too much where they were like entirely different armies within the army, where specific unit choices could be overpowered within one faction while being inferior everywhere else. It was a situation impossible to balance properly and we see that with only 1-3 subfactions per 2nd edition battletome being seen as viable on the tabletop. It would be nice to see each stormhost get it's own enhancement option, be it a command trait, artifact, etc. But overall I like the new implementation and I like the level of power the bonuses provide.

-The new version of stormkeeps is great in both theme and design. I feel it is well-balanced with its counterpart so that players can go either route without concern of handicapping themselves. It is an extra layer of customization that I will certainly enjoy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 18:23:23


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Thadin wrote:
Same Brian.

I had hoped for a normal shipping cycle, so I could get in my Books/New models for a casual-learners tournament this saturday. Thankfully I can still teach with my pretty basic Kruleboyz list, and the store lets people use Battlescribe or borrow books for tournies.


just glad I'm not the only one waiting, as it at least makes me a bit more confident I'm not personally being screwed. at least the dragons haven't dropped yet (what I'm REALLY excited for) as I'd LIKKE to get my battle tome before those pre-orders are up (at least the beta ap means I know stats and points values so I can plan my purchase accordingly)

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

 lare2 wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
As a rookie AoS player with a decent collection of Stormcast models to start out with, I've been reading through the new battletome and just trying to figure out which models in my collection are good and which are likely shelf warmers. Having no experience with the game it's hard for me to tell what's hot and what's not. I'm still trying to figure out which Paladins unit is the best (Retributors, Protectors, or Decimators) so I know how to build my still-unbuilt kit of them.

Also, are mortal wounds a much more common and/or valuable capability in AoS compared to 40k? A specific case that makes me ask this is because the aforementioned Paladin units have the option to take up to 2 Starsoul Maces per 5 models (but the kit only includes 1 of course, feth you GW), but it seems like you're giving up a lot of strong attacks in order to deal d3 mortal wounds instead.


This is very helpful. Well worth watching. It's a unit by unit run down.

https://youtu.be/iRVXjkIMa3M

Cheers, very useful video! Seems I've got a mix of really good stuff and some garbage-tier shelf warmers. Also, checked the Paladins box and found that it does in fact have parts for two Starsoul maces, so I guess GW wasn't screwing us over after all.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 87 | Current main painting project: Sisters of Battle
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in fi
Ye Lord of The End Times (and a good guy)





After my first game with new games fulminators and lord relictor w/translocation were stars of the show for me. Fulminator damage output has gone up the roof O_o. Though their survivability, especially against missiles they mostly ignored before, went down.

Translocation is sooooo useful now that you can get just outside 9", then move and charge. And lord relictor does it on 2+. Also good backup in case you get tooth&nail scenario that removes reserves.

Vindictors and sequitors both were doing hefty work as well.

2021 painted/bought: 538/575 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





tneva82 wrote:

Translocation is sooooo useful now that you can get just outside 9", then move and charge. And lord relictor does it on 2+. Also good backup in case you get tooth&nail scenario that removes reserves.


Wow that's crazy good... surely that'll get FAQd? No one gets a teleport they can move and charge after...
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I can't think of anyone that gets that ability, except for Kruleboyz and Lumineth Loreseeker. But theirs has to be used in deployment, before the first turn is decided.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Thadin wrote:
I can't think of anyone that gets that ability, except for Kruleboyz and Lumineth Loreseeker. But theirs has to be used in deployment, before the first turn is decided.


Yeah, so you're potentially screwed if you go second which somewhat balances it. (Not that I'm a fan of super swingy mechanics like that...)
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






You're not even really that screwed. You can just choose to not use Supa' Sneaky or Loreseeker deployment, if you cannot dictate who has first turn or not, or if you don't want to take first turn.

They can also be used to force the enemy to make YOU go second by using them, if they have control of turn order. If you think the enemy wants to go second, and has control over the turn order that match, drop it in their face and make them second-guess their plan.

I love that aspect of those abilities. Anyways. Please change Translocate.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
 
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