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Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Definitely needed. Some armies alpha strike the pants off buggies.



KFF dude is nice, I also use it a lot. But the bare bone big mek is almost useless once the KFF has overcharged, it becomes just a slugga/choppa nob then. For a handful of more points you can field a big mek in megarmour with KFF which is vastly superior.


 
   
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So as Jid mentioned, at tournament play levels, boyz are effectively dead except as a troops tax. I'm a bit surprised more people aren't using them as trukk boyz honestly. But, with that said, if you are running a shooty freeboota list, I totally understand why you wouldn't want to sink another 70pts into a unit which will have 0 support and can't do much beyond tying up a good target or slaughtering some infantry in the open before dying in turn.

I think Boyz are dead as well and even then my Competitive list involves 3 units of boyz...in 3 detachment....as trukk boyz Without that gimmick i would take Grot taxes or CP taxes. They just provide nothing to my list that can't be done better and cheaper by a unit of Kommandos or Stormboyz.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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It is honestly worth the CP taxes not to take troops beyond trukk boyz and even then its the extra movement for a troop you want more so than the boyz profile. Overall fun codex so far, but our troop choices are now a contender codex for the worst troops in the game (not saying they would take the crown for sure but they probably make the podium).

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Tacoma, WA, USA

My question: Are Boyz crap or just crap by way of being too expensive?

They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?
   
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 alextroy wrote:
My question: Are Boyz crap or just crap by way of being too expensive?

They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?


Probably not, as their main issue is that they fail to perform their primary role of being good at shooting/fighting other troops. However, you are always in danger of entering the "too many wounds per points" territory, at which point green tide will return to reign supreme despite boyz still not being great. The only difference to 8th would be people spamming 12 units of 10 instead of 4 units of 30 because morale.

Trukkboyz might have a chance of being good if the trukk wouldn't cost the same as a buggy gunboat. But that's not an ork problem, most other armies aren't running their transports either for the same reason.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 14:14:04


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 alextroy wrote:
My question: Are Boyz crap or just crap by way of being too expensive?

They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?


honestly its the moral issue moreso than the point issue. any good player will know is a unit of 30 boys is brought just kill 6 turn 1. morale 5/6 of the time fails, a 7th ork runs and 23 rolls are made resulting in ~4 more orks running, pretty good odds dropping 6 orks nets that plus 4 dead orks. next turn you burn down 6 more orks or enough to pull them below 15, now they fail morale 5/6 of the time and after 1 runs the rest run on a 1 or 2 as they are below half strength. ideally they only had to kill 6 more. unit is at 14, morale roll fails 5/6 of the time 1 runs. 13 models running on a 1 or 2 so 4 more run. again killed 6 shooting and 10 orks are gone. unit after suffering 12 shooting casualties of 30 is now a 10 man unit most of the time. which can be mopped up turn 3 as a good player will be moving out of range and limiting charge options to things that will shrug off 10 ork boyz.

points would be nice but all that means is you still taking 40% unit casualties to morale for 30 man squads

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 alextroy wrote:
My question: Are Boyz crap or just crap by way of being too expensive?

They definitely aren't worth 9 points a model, but would they be decent at 7 or 8?


No. Its a combination of what Jidmah and goofy said. A Standard boy is 5' movement. He is incredibly slow. Dmg wise, there isn't a scenario where boyz put out any kind of meaningful dmg at range. If you magically got 30 shoota boyz into 9' range of a target they only get 30 hits at S4 no AP. That works out to 5dmg to a Marine. So 270pts killing 50ish points in dakka range mind you. At normal range its even more pathetic at 3.3dmg. In CC, 10 boyz get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg to a Marine. Significantly better, but again, 5' movement. So at range they are useless, in CC they are ok. But because they are slow they need some kind of gimmick to get them into CC. Trukk boyz works but then you are adding in 70pts to their price tag. So its not 90pts killing 40-50pts in CC, now its 160pts killing 40-50. Still not terrible but the loss of Kulture and the limit of 1 per detachment is a big downside.


On what Goofy said, morale is an absolute deal breaker for large mobz, which is why what Jidmah says is true. If Boyz went back to 7ppm, you wouldn't see 3-4 big blobs of 30. you would see 9-12 small groups of 10. Taking 120 Boyz in 12 mobz at T5 for 840pts would be annoying to say the least and as mentioned, it would be green tide all over again, albeit it in smaller mobz just significantly more of them. Solutions for Boyz are many and varied. You could make htem cheaper and just say, good enough. You could make them more durable with a 5+ save (which at 9ppm, they should have), you could make them faster either in actual movement or by their nerfed methods (Transports, da jump) but you would also need to make their charges more reliable in order for them to be fielded that way.

Keep in mind, boyz weren't scary in 8th either, it was when they were buffed by Ghaz to give them a ton of extra attacks that they were "competitive" and even then it was more of a "hold the objectives" list rather than a kill everything list. And that was when Weirdboyz had an easy time Da Jumping and buffing warpath.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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Italy

Boyz as a stateline were much worse in 8th, gaining +1T and -1AP in combat for one point is a good deal in a vacuum.

In 8th it was possible to give boyz a plethora of buffs, both offensive and defensive, which made them good and even quite competitive. All those tricks are gone except for trukk boyz, that's why competitive lists using boyz will now have 10-30 of them instead of 90+.


 
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






I am going to try 2*10 Deathskull boyz with a big choppa nob next game. They are the tax for my two DS patrols, and they will provide more ob sec bodies to go along with my 3*5 kommandos and 2*5 stormboyz.

Freebooter planes and buggies will be dealing damage.

Where I am I getting at you might ask ? Well my point is that boyz to me have become "filler" units. Trukk boyz are too expensive for me because of the 70 point trukk. Grots are terrible. So regular boyz to send on an objective to die.
Hopefully they take out some stuff (I will be fielding a mega armour warboss with big gob for a 9 inch +1 to hit in CC, which could help boyz hit something and perhaps wound it).

If only we could take min 5 units of boyz... Min 10 is such a bad deal.

Who knows, perhaps boyz (or grots ?) will get something out of a supplement at some time this year or next year. They sure need the help. But so does a lot of our infantry really:
- meganobz are really bad (IMHO)
- TankB too
- Lootas also, bad
- nobz... Very bad I say !
- stormboyz unless deathskulls, bad too, soo baad !
- Flash gitz... So overpriced. Thus, bad again, BAD !

I think everyone gets the picture by now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 08:39:49


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Well, the results are officially in at this point, about 2/3rds of people think Boyz are no longer competitive while 1/3rd thinks they are still competitive. Keep in mind, the point of the poll was to find out if they were competitive in the tournament scene, not in friendly games.

I will mention that I was able to win a recent local tournament while using 3x10 boyz utilized as Trukk Boyz in 3 separate detachments. All naked, all unsupported, and none of them would have been included if Trukk Boyz weren't a specialist mob. Take that for what it is worth.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the results are officially in at this point, about 2/3rds of people think Boyz are no longer competitive while 1/3rd thinks they are still competitive. Keep in mind, the point of the poll was to find out if they were competitive in the tournament scene, not in friendly games.

I will mention that I was able to win a recent local tournament while using 3x10 boyz utilized as Trukk Boyz in 3 separate detachments. All naked, all unsupported, and none of them would have been included if Trukk Boyz weren't a specialist mob. Take that for what it is worth.

You might have taken it a little too far - 2 units of truck boys is enough and does really well for me.

"Competitive" is such a joke atm. The game has always been about spam but I really didnt expect GW to double down on it. Buggies at 90 points is a travesty. When A buggie is 90 points what purpose does a slow unit like boys have at 90 points? Not only are the boys slower...they are less durable and do less damage too plus they have no tricks in the bag (other than trucker boys.) The issue is not the boys though a drop to 8 points probably wouldn't change much but something like....raising the points of wyches/admech vanguard would do even better for them. I think we all know that isn't going to happen though.

Pretty much...troop level infantry can never have a place in this game when you can get the same unit +1 with no downside (stormboys/Commandos) and even those units are only taken to take up space and sneak only objectives. Same is true across all armies. Players will spam the best units in the codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/05 20:42:14


 
   
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United Kingdom

A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.
   
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 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Well, the results are officially in at this point, about 2/3rds of people think Boyz are no longer competitive while 1/3rd thinks they are still competitive. Keep in mind, the point of the poll was to find out if they were competitive in the tournament scene, not in friendly games.

I will mention that I was able to win a recent local tournament while using 3x10 boyz utilized as Trukk Boyz in 3 separate detachments. All naked, all unsupported, and none of them would have been included if Trukk Boyz weren't a specialist mob. Take that for what it is worth.

You might have taken it a little too far - 2 units of truck boys is enough and does really well for me.

"Competitive" is such a joke atm. The game has always been about spam but I really didnt expect GW to double down on it. Buggies at 90 points is a travesty. When A buggie is 90 points what purpose does a slow unit like boys have at 90 points? Not only are the boys slower...they are less durable and do less damage too plus they have no tricks in the bag (other than trucker boys.) The issue is not the boys though a drop to 8 points probably wouldn't change much but something like....raising the points of wyches/admech vanguard would do even better for them. I think we all know that isn't going to happen though.

Pretty much...troop level infantry can never have a place in this game when you can get the same unit +1 with no downside (stormboys/Commandos) and even those units are only taken to take up space and sneak only objectives. Same is true across all armies. Players will spam the best units in the codex.


I run 3 Trukk Boyz because I also put a warboss in each one. Its honestly a bit surprising how often people forget that after the boyz hop out, the next turn the warboss does and they haven't planned for having to deal with our melee beat stick which is the Warboss The only upside of Trukkboyz over stormboyz is the durability. Before you can even start reducing the combat efficiency of the Boyz you have to kill 10 T6 4+ wounds, which isn't hard per say, but its a lot easier than say killing 10 T5 6+ wounds whose only defense is hiding in LOS blocking cover and hoping its close enough to the enemy to make a turn 1 charge. And on top of that, as you reduce those T5 wounds you are also reducing the effectiveness of the stormboyz. Honestly, Trukk boyz and Stormboyz are fairly close to internally balanced. Trukk Boyz cost more but are significantly more durable, Stormboyz are cheaper and more dangerous in CC but lack durability.

But I do agree, Boyz compared to buggies is just stupid. 9 boyz and a nob are 90pts, they are T5, 6+ save so 10 T5 6+ save wounds, they lack any kind of ranged fire power that is worth using. A Scrapjet is 90pts, it has T6, 9 wounds and a 4+ save. It has 4 Big shootas, the equivalent of 3.3 Rokkit launchas and in CC its about the same as a Nob with a PK. (especially when you factor in the charge mortal wounds). Also, its literally twice as fast as a boy with movement 10. The only common scenario where a Scrapjet isn't as good as a Boyz unit is when targeted with heavy weapons. Anything S8 with multi-dmg is significantly more dangerous to Buggies than it is to the boyz unit.

I think the boyz might have had a place in the game if GW hadn't hamstrung them as basically the only max sized unit that regularly cares about Morale. And if they hadn't nerfed most of there delivery methods (removal of +1 to charge evil sunz, Da jump less reliable, Green tide gone etc).

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.


Buffed to T3! But also, lose their armor save. Don't worry though, Morale guts them like a fish more than any unit in the game atm.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.


Guardsmen & Cultists being better than Grots means nothing as they aren't choices when you're running an Ork army.
   
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I think his point is that gretchin are actually worthless, while comparable units in other armies have value beyond existing on the battlefield.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/07 08:11:07


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 Jidmah wrote:
I think his point is that gretchin are actually worthless, while comparable units in other armies have value beyond existing on the battlefield.


I think that is a valid description of the points being made. And everyone forgot to mention that Grots are also not objective secured and the only way to make them obsec is to take a once per detachment specialist mob which also has a negative modifier, IE that everyone nearby has -1 to hit.

GW Went out of their way to nerf ork troops this time around to the point where the only competitive use I can see is the Trukk Boyz and even then only as a better version of a troop tax.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
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ccs wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
A big issue around boys at the moment is that the alternatives are so much better.

Boys on foot are basically dead in the water, they're too slow and too expensive. Grots are cheap but they're the owners of possibly the worst stat profile in the game. If you want a model to sit on the home plate you're probably taking a Mek gun, 45 points for some effective long range firepower.

Boys in a trukk are basically 16 points per model. For 11 points I get a stormboy, which is just as fast and can hold objectives just as well. They aren't as durable but they have a far smaller footprint. For 10 points I get a Kommando, which doesn't need to be as fast because they start halfway up the board and are silly durable compared to boys.

I use trukkboys, kommandos and stormboys in my lists to great effect, but the trukkboys are definitely the weak link of the fast obsec infantry trifecta.


grots i would argue are not cheap, they have probably the worst profile in the game btu for some reason cost as much as a guardsman (ok 5 poitns cheaper per 10 man unit) but the guardsman are sooo much better, better profile, better guns, orders etc. Also for the same price you can get 10 cultists who have a getter profile and better guns. the whole point of grots were worse unit of the game but cheap small objective holders for cheap and they aren't that anymore and were not given enough of a buff to make them worth thier points.


Guardsmen & Cultists being better than Grots means nothing as they aren't choices when you're running an Ork army.


of coarse it means something, it is called game balance. If GW gives 1 army a unit with better stats in every way then another unit in a different codex and then makes them the same points cost that is a game balance issue. They used to (rightfully so) be able to point at gretchin as the worst unit in the game, but then at 3 points per model who cares they just sit back and handled holding objectives. now they are worse than other units and... cannot even hold objectives like other troops by removing objective secured.

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 G00fySmiley wrote:

of coarse it means something, it is called game balance. If GW gives 1 army a unit with better stats in every way then another unit in a different codex and then makes them the same points cost that is a game balance issue. They used to (rightfully so) be able to point at gretchin as the worst unit in the game, but then at 3 points per model who cares they just sit back and handled holding objectives. now they are worse than other units and... cannot even hold objectives like other troops by removing objective secured.


And removing their armor save, and giving them 0 uses besides sitting on an objective. A guardsmen unit can attach a heavy weapon if it really wants to just sit back and hold something, a Grot unit can't even do that.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
 
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