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3d printing custom models in 40K is OK?
Print me up Scotty!
Not now, not ever - GW originals, all night, all day!

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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh




Here’s my deal with GW: you sell me a fully functioning rulebook for my faction that I only need to buy once per edition, and make the game balanced for the duration of that edition without requiring me to buy a supplement, and I will spend the money I save on Gw models. You rip me off on craptastic rules that I need to constantly buy updates for to remain relative to the meta, and I will go to chinacast to fill the gaps when I want models because I bought the models to play a game... you want my money satisfy my needs as a customer or rely on the others.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

macluvin wrote:
Here’s my deal with GW: you sell me a fully functioning rulebook for my faction that I only need to buy once per edition, and make the game balanced for the duration of that edition without requiring me to buy a supplement, and I will spend the money I save on Gw models. You rip me off on craptastic rules that I need to constantly buy updates for to remain relative to the meta, and I will go to chinacast to fill the gaps when I want models because I bought the models to play a game... you want my money satisfy my needs as a customer or rely on the others.


I'm basically with you. The only thing I don't do is chinacast. Scanning a friend's model, hell yea.

I haven't bought a GW book in decades, other than ones included with a boxed set.
   
Made in us
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain






A Protoss colony world

As the owner of an Anycubic Photon S 3d printer, I'm definitely in favor of using 3d printed models as long as they are the right size and shape so as to avoid any "modelling for advantage" concerns. Same as any other third party models. Lots of Patreon creators are out there making cool models, so it would be a shame if nobody could use them in events.

Any TO who disallows 3d printed (or any other third party) models is a douche and/or a GW white knight, unless of course the event is a GW event or something in which case it's fair for them to require official GW models.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 9/25/20, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 | Space Marines (Blood Ravens and others): ~900 | Space Wolves: ~3800
Astra Militarum: ~800 | Officio Assassinorum: ~600 | Imperial Knights: ~1300 | Sisters of Battle: ~1900
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Total models painted in 2020: 47 | Total models painted in 2021: 87 | Current main painting project: Sisters of Battle
 Mr_Rose wrote:
Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

I'd definitely play against a full 3D printed army, as long as it's reasonably WYSIWYG.

I'm not interested in purchasing any 3D printed models though as I never, ever, saw a single 3D printed miniature that was better than its GW counterpart. At least for those armies I do own or would like to own. And I can't mix them with already existing collections because the design is typically different.

About terrain I'm way more open to get third party alternatives, and in fact I did get a lot of non GW stuff. 3D printed terrain is easily on par with GW stuff if not better.


 
   
Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster




In the middle here. It's a couple of years since I've seen 3d prints (work then pandemic) and the examples I saw were awful.

I'm sure there are better out there, and my sample group is minute. For me, too much time and effort. For others, straight copying is out, but otherwise go for it, but go for it WELL!
   
Made in es
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Some say that newer prints can be better or perhaps as good as GW originals… I have seen only photos and sure, seem sometimes even better. GW does not have a lock on the best artists, that is a certainty!
But one thing that I doubt completely is that 40k would dry up if we stopped paying 35euros for a single 28mm character on a “scenic” base. Worried about GW printing rules? Mezmorki seems to have a better system here on Dakka, free and open. Oldhammer books are everywhere. Russians have newest rules open, free. Second edition? Third? What might disappear is the last five years of weird Cawlian scum after my horde of perhaps soon to be printed OG not weenies lays down a holy torrent of righteous bolter rounds into their noob heretical snoutlessly helmeted faces. But 40k is not going anywhere. I mean, why am I thinking about getting into a new printer at this point? It Is not to print car parts, you got that right!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/26 06:45:45


   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





drbored wrote:
You can play with whatever models you want, as long as your opponent feels the same way. You just need to understand a few key things.
1. You wont be able to play with printed models at a Warhammer store or Warhammer sponsored event.

I am lucky enough not to have any official store nearby and the only official tournament I used to play in was held once a year. Not a big loss, in case I decided not to play a list with 100% official models.

2. Printing your own models does not support your local gaming store, so don't be surprised if the gaming store staff gives you pushback for using their tables/space.

I am lucky enought to play in a large gaming club with its own venue, not associated with any FLGS. The number of 3D printers we own, both individually and at club level, is skyrocketing.

3. Some opponents that spend hundreds of dollars on GW models and armies may not want to play against your 3d printed armies. That's their opinion and their right.

And their loss. But then again, in my local scene there's no one like that.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Galas wrote:
It is not my duty as a customer to spend my money on a multimillion company and their investors, that mentality is the one that keeps people playing a game that they despise like WoW or heck, warhammer.
Its GW's interest as a company to offer me a product I want to invest money in. If it busts, it busts just like Kodak. Is a game, I'll find other uses for my miniatures, is not like losing the GW rulesets would be a real lose for anybody.
Others will come to take their place.

nope, but if you don't buy something don't complain when it no longer exists. thats just common sense.
Your duty as a customer is simply to decide if the product is desirable eneugh to pay the asking price.

I doubt GW is ever going to cease to exist, but even in that remote case 40K wouldn't.
WHFB did not die when they killed the setting, it lives on as the community driven The 9th Age. 40K would live on, just like that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/26 07:22:41



 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Aenar wrote:


3. Some opponents that spend hundreds of dollars on GW models and armies may not want to play against your 3d printed armies. That's their opinion and their right.

And their loss. But then again, in my local scene there's no one like that.



Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

There are also people that may not want to play against an OP tournament list or a skew list that is zero fun to play against, even if it's full GW, full WYSIWYG and full painted at pro levels. That's also their opinion and their right.


 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





PenitentJake wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
I did expect generally a warm reception to the idea, but am a bit surprised by the acceptance of direct copies of GW models that are not specifically OOP especially... As the OP, I am going to stay neutral on the idea for now. I am a bit surprised, but not going to say if that is happy surprise or moral abhorrence.


I hope that enough people realize we have to support the company to keep the game going- otherwise we end up in a situation where the game just dies. All the pretty and cheap 3d prints aren't really going to make a difference if all development stops because the company breaks.



It's not my job to support GW. The onus is on GW to retain financial support, if they can't do that then that is them failing to provide the consumer with what they want. If they see a loss of profits from people 3D printing their stuff its up to them to evaluate where and why their business is lacking and rectify the issue to win back custom.

Also, please don't do something stupid like compare GW to an indie company. GW is a corporation, its a whole different situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:


Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.


If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 08:39:26



 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







Your first 3D printed army is about £500 - 600, including all the printing, safety and consumable equipment. Your second printed army is maybe £100

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






3D printing is the future, and I not only approve, I encourage getting into it, but only for creating new stuff, not copying existing products.

I adore the contenporary looking Epic armies people are 3D printing for themselves! No foul towards GW either since they dont offer models anymore.
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







If anyone needs examples of quality pointing to Albertorius’s great printing blog.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/777911.page

And inquisitor28 is the old Inquisitor rule set using 28mm models rather than the original 54mm scale ones.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

PenitentJake wrote:

I hope that enough people realize we have to support the company to keep the game going- otherwise we end up in a situation where the game just dies.


You're mistaken. It's GWs job to produce products I want at a price I'll pay. If they fail to do that the results are that I don't give them my $.

Furthermore the game will not die. With or without GW, there's plenty of people who own plenty of books & models who'll still like to play games. We're not chucking our stuff in the trash. We'll just keep playing wichever editions suit our groups as long as we enjoy the games.

PenitentJake wrote:
All the pretty and cheap 3d prints aren't really going to make a difference if all development stops because the company breaks.


If the company breaks & development stops they'll make a HUGE difference. Wether you're an existing player looking to expand or a new player looking to start, there'll only be 3 sources of models. and one of those is finite.
1) Retail - The finite option. Whatever kits are still out there at your local or on-line shops. And as the continuing pandemic has demonstrated, those kits will run out. Unlike the current shortages though there won't be any re-stock.
2) 2nd hand - be it EBay, FB pages, etc etc etc. Somebodies always selling off stuff.
3) 3d prints & re-casts.

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Dysartes wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?


It does seem odd, talk about recasting IMMEDIATLY gets you shut down here, but I've seen threads go on for 20+ pages where people advocate pirating the codices and gleefully admit to doing so without anything happening, likewise people talk about printing entire armies of bootleg marines and no steps are taken to shut that talk down. the double standard at play is obvious.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/26 10:24:52


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.


If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.


No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 10:48:43



 
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.

No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.

Even by considering all the related costs, it depends on the army.
Probably 2000 points of Custodes (excluding expensive FW units) would be cheaper with official models.
2000 points of AdMech, GSC, Guard, ...? It depends.

A cheap resin 3D printer (Anycubic Photon) costs $140 (USD), plus resin ($50-60 for two liters of resin, but again it depends on the faction), isopropyl alcohol to clean prints ($30), random paper towels and similar stuff ($20?).
You can also add a wash&cure machine to properly prepare the prints for painting ($100), or do it yourself with a couple of buckets full of alcohol and then leaving the models under the sun.
Total: $250-350 to get a printer and print a full 2000 points army.
You could get a 4K printer, a mono printer, a larger printer, ... and spend a little bit more. But the cheapest one I've seen, the one I own, is capable of printing incredible details.

This would be the cost for the first army. The second one would cost obviously less.

As for the time investment in learning how to use it, it's not rocket science. It involves a lot of trial & error to get to know your particular printer and to dial in the correct print settings. But it can be easily done over a couple of weeks.


 
   
Made in es
[DCM]
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor






your mind

Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 jeff white wrote:
Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.



..... Do you really need a buncha people on the internet to make up your mind for you? if you're concerned about local reception wouldn't you be better off..... I dunno, asking your local play groups facebook page?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 jeff white wrote:
Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.

I thought you were just wondering in general not making an actual decision. Ask your locals, you'll get a much more accurate reaction.
Forums tend to be polarised and are a poor representation of real-world communities, which is interesting because so far this thread hasn't been so bad with regards to insults and vendettas.
   
Made in ca
Hacking Interventor





 jeff white wrote:
Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.


Firstly, sorry to hear your home isn't stable.

But second, yeah, when you get a space to do minis in again, print away.

Honestly, a half-decent paintjob on a solid 3d print is something I would actually rather see from my opponent than a competently painted stock GW model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
I did expect generally a warm reception to the idea, but am a bit surprised by the acceptance of direct copies of GW models that are not specifically OOP especially... As the OP, I am going to stay neutral on the idea for now. I am a bit surprised, but not going to say if that is happy surprise or moral abhorrence.


I think there's a difference between playing against something and completely endorsing the concept of 3d printing carbon copies of models for an entire army.

I hope that enough people realize we have to support the company to keep the game going- otherwise we end up in a situation where the game just dies. All the pretty and cheap 3d prints aren't really going to make a difference if all development stops because the company breaks.

But if you show up with an army, provided it's not radioactive, I'll play against it.



See, the problem is that too many people support the company regardless of what the company does at this point. They have a self-contained lore-game ecosystem that is uncontested in their particular realm and very hard to break out of. And the result is that their game is, armybook by armybook, becoming a squirrel gradually vomiting out a streamer of spaghetti currently large enough to fill the Hindenburg.

I don't think even in my most wildly optimistic fantasies that a bit of grumbling on Dakka will kill that squirrel. But they need a little less success than they're getting if we want anything to change. They need competition - from 3D printers, from other games, so that GW has to work to be the best option and can't just do whatever it wants because people see it as the only option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 12:10:57


"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

3D printings come a long way in a short time, resin printers especially can do amazing quality.

This is GWs war to lose, 3D printings can match them for quality, but it's much cheaper.

Either GW will drop prices to take advantage of their mass production capabilities or they'll be reduced to just releasing rules books.

I've a friend who runs a 3D printing site she's growing her range all the time, some of her stuff blows GW out the water.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Dysartes wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?
Again, I just seem to recall when Dakka's mods operated on a rather strict "no recasting" policy, and such topics were rather quickly halted. I wonder if this is perhaps a change in policy on their end.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






A 3d printer is a relatively complex piece of equipment, you try selling the 40k hobby to a bunch of kids/teens off the back of buying a 3d printer, and very few are going to pick you up on it.
It's all well and good to say learning 3d printing only takes a few weeks but it's hardly the same as buying models. To get good quality stuff you have to be good at 3d printing/get a good printer and if you beans it, you're left with nothing. On the other side, a beginner who buys their models isn't expected to be a "Golden Demon" standard painter. The learning curve with painting is a hell of a lot simpler IMO than 3d printing, especially with things like Contrast. Of course, that's even if you care about painting in the first place. The only thing you actually need to do with bought models is build them.
It's not a case of instant gratification, it's more "why should I spend £300 on a printer, wait a month before I actually know how to use it, then print models".
Anyway, that's just my opinion on the whole "3d printing will kill GW" thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 13:29:33


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I don’t see it as being good for the local scene, near me it was completely dead until a FLGS opened up so I don’t want to 3D print whole armies and drive them out of business. That being said I do use 3D printed parts and bases on models and don’t really have a problem playing against them. I don’t see 3D printing really taking off for a few years, it’s still a high start up cost and a lot of hours to get it right. When software becomes more user friendly(I’m aware it might seem it to you but not to others with limited time) it will be a lot more common place, GW and most other model manufacturers will just produce vehicles and scenery.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Making exact copies and selling them I think is too far. Marketing them as GW models is dishonest and illegal.

But other than that, sure, why not make miniatures inspired by GW stuff? Lots of GW designs are or were inspired by other sources, and their background is ripped off from Dune and Moorcock and the like, so it's not like they've got much of a leg to stand on there.

   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




Poll is top narrow in scope imo.

No to 3d printing
3d printing conversion parts
3d printing occasional models
3d printing units/armies from alternatives
OK with 3d printed gw knockoffs
   
Made in gb
[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex







 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?
Again, I just seem to recall when Dakka's mods operated on a rather strict "no recasting" policy, and such topics were rather quickly halted. I wonder if this is perhaps a change in policy on their end.


Arguments in favour of direct copies of GW sculpts have been against the rules, are against the rules, and will likely always be against the rules. Dakka has never endorsed illegal direct duplications of artistic sculpts. Note that saying 'Yeah, I'd play someone with a recast army', or 'I don't care about recasts' are merely personal expressions and consequently not the same thing as 'We should all be recasting models! Look at my huge army of recasts, you should do it too!' or 'You can buy recasts at Location X!' The latter is banned here, the former is not.

When it comes to someone printing out a Makers Cult Feudal Guard army however, that's basically the same as someone modifying some WW2 Germans to carry lasguns, or buying some plastics from Mantic to play with. Those are independent sculpts, and no matter how derivative of GW IP generally an independent sculpt may be, it's not a duplicate or a recast and not treated the same. Mods have better things to do then try and figure out if a model is 2% over the acceptable line of similarity to qualify as an IP infringement.

In other words, saying 'Yeah, I think we should all be playing 5th edition 40K with printed out proxies that can resemble GW units' is A-OK - as it neither promotes nor endorses illegal sculpt duplication.

Not to mention the fact that fictional universes with wide fan support take on a life of their own independent of the company, and are hardly tied to its continued existence. IX Age is very much a thing now traditional Warhammer is gone, and when Bloodbowl got dropped altogether, fans and smaller companies sprang up to support it. If everyone gets bored of GW prices and rules, and the resulting exodus to 3D print resulted in the demise of GW; it would simply continue in other formats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/26 16:03:38



 
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Aenar wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.

No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.

Even by considering all the related costs, it depends on the army.
Probably 2000 points of Custodes (excluding expensive FW units) would be cheaper with official models.
2000 points of AdMech, GSC, Guard, ...? It depends.

A cheap resin 3D printer (Anycubic Photon) costs $140 (USD), plus resin ($50-60 for two liters of resin, but again it depends on the faction), isopropyl alcohol to clean prints ($30), random paper towels and similar stuff ($20?).
You can also add a wash&cure machine to properly prepare the prints for painting ($100), or do it yourself with a couple of buckets full of alcohol and then leaving the models under the sun.
Total: $250-350 to get a printer and print a full 2000 points army.
You could get a 4K printer, a mono printer, a larger printer, ... and spend a little bit more. But the cheapest one I've seen, the one I own, is capable of printing incredible details.

This would be the cost for the first army. The second one would cost obviously less.

As for the time investment in learning how to use it, it's not rocket science. It involves a lot of trial & error to get to know your particular printer and to dial in the correct print settings. But it can be easily done over a couple of weeks.


What about time spent on learning how to design the models? Something can be found for free on the internet, granted, but typically files must be paid. And designing own models takes really a lot of time to master.


 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon




San Jose, CA

Gert wrote:A 3d printer is a relatively complex piece of equipment, you try selling the 40k hobby to a bunch of kids/teens off the back of buying a 3d printer, and very few are going to pick you up on it.
It's all well and good to say learning 3d printing only takes a few weeks but it's hardly the same as buying models
.


If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)
   
 
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