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I will choose to be cautiously optimistic for the B5 reboot.

The BSG one I rather enjoyed till right up near the end. Did not care for the divine angle they chose.

 
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

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Together with ST:TNG, B5 is my all time favourite s-f show, so I hope this remake will be at least as good if not better.
   
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 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


Not much prequels to do. The war 1000 years ago? Trouble is having connection with viewers with zero humans.

Sequels? Hard to do without going either so far ahead time no original characters left at which point connection to B5 is...weak or have serious issues as like over half the cast is...well dead.

And don't look right age anyway. So you end up having to recast original characters ANYWAY.

Only sequel that would really make sense is do the crusade again as that never got done properly. That might make sense. But probably be inferior in terms of finance. And if reboot of B5 works reboot of crusade could be on cards and we finally would find out what the crusade was supposed to be about properly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 08:03:47


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 warboss wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
B5 being one of my very favouritest series ever, this makes me apprehensive… on the other hand, I assume that Mr Morden will be all for a second crack at taking the station down and corrupting the Centauri elite


I don't think it likely that Morden will survive as is. That seems to me to be the obvious gender swap. Frankly I'm ok with that (unlike usually) as gender was never even a minor consideration for the character.


Hear that @Mr Morden… your time has come

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I think this will stand or fall on casting as the original cast was awesome sauce of the highest order (and whoever gets the G'Kar role will have hella big boots to fill)

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I loved B5. How they tell the story and cast the actors is going to be tough though. G'kar, Londo, Vir, Ivanova, Garibaldi.. many of the original cast made the characters their own. Plus, of course, the mystery of the Shadows, the role of the Vorlons, the coup on Earth... a whole lot of 'wow... What happens next?' is going to be gone.
   
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Well, based on JMS tweet your concerns are unfounded. Its not going to be a straight remake of the original series. The Shadow/Vorlon conflict, Earthgov coup, and other twists and turns of the original series may be present, or not present at all, or completely reimagined and recontextualized in ways that you don't expect - not unlike the BSG reboot. I think you can also expect that although many of the characters will have familiar names, their backgrounds, personalities, and roles in the story might be entirely different.

The new actors playing G'Kar and Londo won't ever live up to Andreas Katsulas or Peter Jurasik, but thats okay because even though their characters share the same names they aren't really the same characters in the same story.

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Perhaps the bigger story buried in JMS chatting yesterday was the fact that the roadblock that kept B5 from being developed at all (IE: whatever blood feud with particular exec(s) ) has been resolved (albeit with an unsatisfying and likely NDA'd answer).

That's huuuuuuuge.
   
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 kodos wrote:
I add this as my favourite quote





regarding the BSG reboot, at least from what I have seen/heard/talked the opinion differs a lot in US and EU and and while being liked on the first run it failed to become a classic here (with the original being considered to have aged much better than the reboot)

with the main problem of the original that they were forced tov switch from TV-movies to 1 episode per week on the fly with less money (and in Europe the show kept the movie style on first release and re-runs with episodes re-cut into 3 feature films)
were the main problem of the reboot is that they had no real plan for the ongoing plot or a detailed pre-planned start/middle/end for a 5 season show (that the last season was not available in German speaking countries for a long time as the channel broadcasting it could not afford to buy it while had a contract that it is not released on home media before they have showed it, did not really helped either)


I *tried* to like the BSG reboot, but moving to an 'enemy within' angle rather than 'enemy without', the silly religion thing and the soap-opera plots made it unwatchable.
Having said this, I'm cautiously optimistic for a rebooted B5.
   
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Sterling191 wrote:
Perhaps the bigger story buried in JMS chatting yesterday was the fact that the roadblock that kept B5 from being developed at all (IE: whatever blood feud with particular exec(s) ) has been resolved (albeit with an unsatisfying and likely NDA'd answer).

That's huuuuuuuge.


But we already knew that. The roadblock was a person or a group of people, JMS has always been pretty clear on that point though he wouldn't name specific names, other than to say they were old-time WB company execs who hated anything and everything to do with the PTEN network (B5 included). Earlier this year AT&T announced it was spinning off WB and associated stuff into Warnermedia, and then merge it with Discovery Inc. As part of that a number of senior people at WB, etc. were basically put out of work and replaced with new blood. Presumably this shakeup involved the removal of some/all the individuals/groups involved with roadblocking B5 all these years which paved the way for JMS. I posted something to this effect as a prediction of how things might go in response to something JMS posted on twitter a few months back and he heart reacted it - I didn't read too much into it at the time, but now I wonder if he was already in talks about this at that point and was heart reacting because I had read the situation correctly.

I *tried* to like the BSG reboot, but moving to an 'enemy within' angle rather than 'enemy without', the silly religion thing and the soap-opera plots made it unwatchable.
Having said this, I'm cautiously optimistic for a rebooted B5.


Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.

But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

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 AduroT wrote:
I will choose to be cautiously optimistic for the B5 reboot.

The BSG one I rather enjoyed till right up near the end. Did not care for the divine angle they chose.


I wasn't crazy about the conclusion for a few reasons. But some of that got paved over for me when I realized that the 'angels' were really the Seraphs from the original series reimagined. There are even clues about that, including the lightship being in one of Starbuck's paintings. Anyway, it reminded me that divine intervention was very much part of the original series also, along with a lot of other religious (especially Mormon) themes and allegory. nu-BSG was probably the kind of series that Glen Larson (who is a Latter-Day Saint) would have liked to have made in the '70s but couldn't for a whole host of reasons.



Regarding "5 seasons plans" and such...fans overrate that. It's pretty clear that JMS had to adjust course at times. Every line and shot wasn't part of some master plan, LOL. It was still episodic TV; he just laid crumbs here and there that pointed toward his overall goal.

It's cool that he had the outline and such, but there's also nothing wrong with letting the writing take you where it takes you. Bob Ross would endorse this creative approach, and who can go against the word of Ross?




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Londo straight up mentions the prophecy about him becoming Emperor in the very first episode.

I think that certainly whilst every single detail wasn't pre-planned; the major story arcs and several very key moments were set in stone long in advance. This allowed the writer and cast to work around certain concepts and to put all those little references in earlier that would add up to major events later. They can build small shifts in attitude and development and situation on key characters so that they are manoeuvred into a position so that when the major event happens it might be a surprise, but it feels natural. Not something thought up on the spur of the moment to provide a sudden massive plot event in the last 2 episodes of the season kind of deal. Which is honestly what you might see with a much more episodic series; where mid-season changes might happen only at the mid point in a very long season; or might only happen due to out-of-story politics - eg an actor leaves the production.

Which did happen to B5 and they had to re-write several key parts to account for the fact that "the one" they'd setup left after season 1

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 14:57:58


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 Flinty wrote:
 warboss wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
B5 being one of my very favouritest series ever, this makes me apprehensive… on the other hand, I assume that Mr Morden will be all for a second crack at taking the station down and corrupting the Centauri elite


I don't think it likely that Morden will survive as is. That seems to me to be the obvious gender swap. Frankly I'm ok with that (unlike usually) as gender was never even a minor consideration for the character.


Hear that @Mr Morden… your time has come




Despite my love for the Centauri - they were already corrupt :0 but they did have....style....

My alt universe pack I wrote for ACTA: B5 had his daughter as a main character given that he served the Shadows to get his family back.

I hope that they keep that the Vorlons are as bad or worse than the Shadows

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chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.

But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.


Just the whole big plot of crusade


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
Londo straight up mentions the prophecy about him becoming Emperor in the very first episode.

I think that certainly whilst every single detail wasn't pre-planned; the major story archs and several very key moments were set in stone long in advance. This allowed the writer and cast to work around certain concepts and to put all those little references in earlier that would add up to major events later. They can build small shifts in attitude and development and situation on key characters so that they are manoeuvred into a position so that when the major event happens it might be a surprise, but it feels natural. Not something thought up on the spur of the moment to provide a sudden massive plot event in the last 2 episodes of the season kind of deal. Which is honestly what you might see with a much more episodic series; where mid-season changes might happen only at the mid point in a very long season; or might only happen due to out-of-story politics - eg an actor leaves the production.

Which did happen to B5 and they had to re-write several key parts to account for the fact that "the one" they'd setup left after season 1


He had for example every season and arc points of episodes written in advance in small notes.

Which caused "some" issues when hotel staff literally lost those that concerned season 5 just as he was about to start write s5...

Cue frantically trying to rebuild his plan for s5 from years old memories.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 15:00:08


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 gorgon wrote:
Regarding "5 seasons plans" and such...fans overrate that. It's pretty clear that JMS had to adjust course at times.

From Wikipedia

During production of the fourth season, the Prime Time Entertainment Network, which Warner Bros. opted to use for Babylon 5, was shut down, leaving the planned fifth season in doubt. Unwilling to short-change fans of the show, Straczynski began preparing modifications to the fourth season that would allow him to conclude his overall arc should a fifth season not be greenlit, which ultimately became the direction the fourth season took. Straczynski identified three primary narrative threads which would require resolution: the Shadow war, Earth's slide into a dictatorship, and a series of sub-threads which branched off from those. Estimating they would still take around 27 episodes to resolve without having the season feel rushed, the solution came when the TNT network commissioned two Babylon 5 television films. Several hours of material was thus able to be moved into the films, including a three-episode arc which would deal with the background to the Earth–Minbari War, and a sub-thread which would have set up the sequel series, Crusade. Further standalone episodes and plot-threads were dropped from season four, which could be inserted into Crusade, or the fifth season, were it to be given the greenlight. The intended series finale, "Sleeping in Light", was filmed during season four as a precaution against cancellation. When word came that TNT had picked up Babylon 5, this was moved to the end of season five and replaced with a newly filmed season four finale, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars".

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tneva82 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

Just the whole big plot of crusade


Sure, but in terms of enemies within also Mr. Morden, Vorlon/Shadow agents, Psi Corps, that whole Earthgov civil war thing, etc. And then in terms of religion, its hard to even pick where to start, what with the Shadows and Vorlons having seeded religion into the younger races, the whole Valen angle with the Minbari, the various other weird religious elements of the series,etc.

In truth, B5 2.0 can lift a *lot* from the BSG reboot and it would all make sense and be true to the context of the original series. Replace Cylon skinjobs with Shadow/Vorlon biotech clones or more widespread infilitration by Psi Corps sleeper agents. You wouldn't need to do much with the religious aspects as christianity and other real world faiths are part of the established setting (and presumably will be part of the reboot) but you can put them into conflict with the other religious systems of the various alien empires, or go a lot further with the whole "Vorlons posed as angelic beings" thing to just have all of Christianity be a product of alien interference or whatever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 15:10:42


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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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Bingo.

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The main weakness of nBSG, and what ultimately made it fall apart after the New Caprica storyline, was that the writers didn’t actually know where they were going. That shouldn’t be an issue for a nB5. The whole point of writing the 5 year plan is for the writer(s) to know where the show is going, to make the story work.

   
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Writers strikes and network wavering also had a hand in the somewhat shaky end to BSG (I believe the writers said they needed two seasons, 4&5 to wrap up the storyline, but SciFi would only commit to one. That ended up being half a season due to the strike, so they then got a full season 5, but the pacing got wonky because of all of the rejigging)


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I’m a massive B5 fan, so if JMS can pull this off I will be very, very happy. Although no-one can replace Claudia Christian as Ivanova in my heart…

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 16:50:43


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Are we really talking about other shows with shaky endings in a Babylon 5 thread? There some reasons for that. But boy oh boy season 5 of B5 was doggak. I'll take BSG's final season over that anticlimatic snoozefest any day.

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I sure wouldn’t. By the last season of nBSG, every character was as unlikeable as Byron.

   
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I agree with Gorgon, mostly. I wouldn't say it was doggak, but its quality did suffer because despite all the emphasis this fanbase puts on the "five year plan", it didn't survive contact with "the enemy" and suffered many of the same issues that other beloved multiseason tv series do.

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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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chaos0xomega wrote:
I agree with Gorgon, mostly. I wouldn't say it was doggak, but its quality did suffer because despite all the emphasis this fanbase puts on the "five year plan", it didn't survive contact with "the enemy" and suffered many of the same issues that other beloved multiseason tv series do.


I really lost interest after the end of the Shadow War and Earth Civil War - there were a few good episodes but crap like a View from the Gallery - ughh..

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Okay, I may have been dramatic with 'doggak'. But that last season felt aimless and like they were running out the clock. Maybe the concept was a Scouring of the Shire wind-down back to peacetime and something more like the early episodes, but the Scouring had more purpose and meaning. And wasn't 20% of the entire LotR saga.

Oh and "the hotel maid ate my notes"...uh, sure. As that Wikipedia snippet stated, it seemed more like things didn't go to plan and they were forced to rejigger everything in an ultimately unsatisfying way.

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 gorgon wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
I will choose to be cautiously optimistic for the B5 reboot.

The BSG one I rather enjoyed till right up near the end. Did not care for the divine angle they chose.


I wasn't crazy about the conclusion for a few reasons. But some of that got paved over for me when I realized that the 'angels' were really the Seraphs from the original series reimagined. There are even clues about that, including the lightship being in one of Starbuck's paintings. Anyway, it reminded me that divine intervention was very much part of the original series also, along with a lot of other religious (especially Mormon) themes and allegory. nu-BSG was probably the kind of series that Glen Larson (who is a Latter-Day Saint) would have liked to have made in the '70s but couldn't for a whole host of reasons.



Regarding "5 seasons plans" and such...fans overrate that. It's pretty clear that JMS had to adjust course at times. Every line and shot wasn't part of some master plan, LOL. It was still episodic TV; he just laid crumbs here and there that pointed toward his overall goal.

It's cool that he had the outline and such, but there's also nothing wrong with letting the writing take you where it takes you. Bob Ross would endorse this creative approach, and who can go against the word of Ross?





Yeah, I know they did some divine stuff in the original as well. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single full episode of it, but I distinctly remember catching the end of one where they met Satan and only survived because of an intervention.

 
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/28 19:49:32


 
   
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 AduroT wrote:
Yeah, I know they did some divine stuff in the original as well. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single full episode of it, but I distinctly remember catching the end of one where they met Satan and only survived because of an intervention.


Count Iblis!



More religious stuff started creeping in toward the end. An interesting development with Iblis was that he spoke with the same voice as the Cylon Imperious Leader. It was the same actor...BUT it's also noted within the show by Baltar. Which raises some questions about the Cylons and their origins.

They also revealed that Adama had limited powers of telekinesis in the same story arc. This kinda sets up the Seraphs' explanation that they were once like the Colonials and someday that Colonials may be like them. IIRC, this echoes the Mormon belief that humans can become exalted and like gods themselves.

But even before things got so explicitly religious, there were lots of little artifacts. Kobol = Kolob, 12 tribes, etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 21:09:09


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Also, BSG was a sci-fi interpretation of Mormonism. Kind of the Mormon version of the Narnia chronicles.

I’m going to leave this comment here, as a factual statement so we might avoid irritating the mods. I urge you to do the same.

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