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Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Relic Contemptors with Volkites >> Redemptors, but Redemptors are still pretty good. Not undercosted for sure. Personally I think the VolCon is undercosted, but I think the weapons need the points bump, not the unit itself.


VolCons gak the bed once Ork buggies are in their face. They are not panacea.

Or other dreadnoughts. Or Death Guard. Or anything T7+ with a 2+ save......
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





a_typical_hero wrote:
I wouldn't say that. If Gladiators would get CORE, I'd still rather take a Redemptor.


Full dakka Redemptor @ 180 ( ignoring pod since both can take it ) gets you 12 S6 AP1, 8 S5 AP1, and 4/8 S4 AP0. The Reaper @ 240 gets you 24 S6 AP1, 12/20 S4 AP1, T8, +2M, -1W, and access to SMOKESCREEN.

When shooting a Raider ( with pods ) :

Redemptor : 5.5W to 6W
Reaper : 8.3W to 11.2W
VolCons & CML : 9.1W

Getting shot by 3 Laschickens :

Redemptor : 8.9
Reaper w/ Smoke : 8.3
Contemptor : 7.1

Getting shot by 3 Eradicators :

Redemptor : 6.7
Reaper w/ Smoke : 5.3
Contemptor : 4.4

A Reaper isn't drastically softer than a Contemptor when Smoke is on. Yes you pay CP for that - you also pay CP for the Contemptor.

The Reaper is also safer to bring out in range, because it has repulsor.

Sure...no rerolls, but no points spent on a babysitter and it won't wither against Ramshackle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/05 17:11:07


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Daedalus81 wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
I wouldn't say that. If Gladiators would get CORE, I'd still rather take a Redemptor.


Full dakka Redemptor @ 180 ( ignoring pod since both can take it ) gets you 12 S6 AP1, 8 S5 AP1, and 4/8 S4 AP0. The Reaper @ 240 gets you 24 S6 AP1, 12/20 S4 AP1, T8, +2M, -1W, and access to SMOKESCREEN.

When shooting a Raider ( with pods ) :

Redemptor : 5.5W to 6W
Reaper : 8.3W to 11.2W
VolCons & CML : 9.1W

Getting shot by 3 Laschickens :

Redemptor : 8.9
Reaper w/ Smoke : 8.3
Contemptor : 7.1

Getting shot by 3 Eradicators :

Redemptor : 6.7
Reaper w/ Smoke : 5.3
Contemptor : 4.4

A Reaper isn't drastically softer than a Contemptor when Smoke is on. Yes you pay CP for that - you also pay CP for the Contemptor.

The Reaper is also safer to bring out in range, because it has repulsor.

Sure...no rerolls, but no points spent on a babysitter and it won't wither against Ramshackle.


Reaper is decent since it went down in points. It is still too much though.
I run an Ironhands list with a reaper a valiant and 3 redemptor all with Gatling and 2 storm speeders with melta.
It is a fun list that will crush certain lists and get destroyed by others.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





They could use some small tweaks, but I have been dreaming up and buying towards an Iron Fists list and than tank for them is just eye watering dakka. Iron Hands is another good platform for tanks that I've been pondering, but I also like the idea of them with tons of dead hard infantry.

*shudders* I mean...loyalist scum!

   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

I think the whole "go CORE or go home" thing is mostly a loyalist hangup because of how heavily they rely on Auras. Death Guard use plenty of non-CORE daemon engines, as do Thousand Sons, and Raiders not being CORE certainly doesn't hurt them. It certainly doesn't help that most Astartes tanks (on BOTH sides) are still a bit overpriced.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could use some small tweaks, but I have been dreaming up and buying towards an Iron Fists list and than tank for them is just eye watering dakka. Iron Hands is another good platform for tanks that I've been pondering, but I also like the idea of them with tons of dead hard infantry.

*shudders* I mean...loyalist scum!


Hey, nothing wrong with wanting a few loyalist models Daed. I've got quite a few myself. Or at least, um, parts of them. Dangling from chains, impaled on spikes........
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I think the whole "go CORE or go home" thing is mostly a loyalist hangup because of how heavily they rely on Auras. Death Guard use plenty of non-CORE daemon engines, as do Thousand Sons, and Raiders not being CORE certainly doesn't hurt them. It certainly doesn't help that most Astartes tanks (on BOTH sides) are still a bit overpriced.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could use some small tweaks, but I have been dreaming up and buying towards an Iron Fists list and than tank for them is just eye watering dakka. Iron Hands is another good platform for tanks that I've been pondering, but I also like the idea of them with tons of dead hard infantry.

*shudders* I mean...loyalist scum!


Hey, nothing wrong with wanting a few loyalist models Daed. I've got quite a few myself. Or at least, um, parts of them. Dangling from chains, impaled on spikes........

Raiders get to reroll their one shot (about as effective as 2 lascannons) and are open topped / fly / 16" move and they are under 100 points and hold 10 dudes. If they were 130 like a twin las razorback they would still be better than a razorback. It's all about points in that case. Were the raider probably needs to go up 15% and most vehicles come down 15%.

On the issue of space marines. Space marines are the reroll faction. Their strength is bringing reroll auras to benefit multiple units where choas strength is mega buffing 1 unit. However - you aren't gonna see a lot of black legion choas players not bringing core units to go along with abandons reroll all hits aura. That is just about playing to your strengths. Auras in general are too powerful as it is - so something like core was needed to tone them down...however - the issue is they didn't reduce the cost on things that aren't core though it is a major drawback - easily high cost units that can't benefit from rerolls are significantly out performed by 2 cheaper units that can.

The way I would have fixed it is just make auras only able to affect 1 or 2 units a turn with "titanic" level units counting as 2 units for the purposes of auras. Then you could have just forgot about core all together.

Also the way I would have fixed it would have been to release all the armies rules at one time so we had a level playing field...but somehow GW makes more money this way I suppose.

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Full dakka Redemptor @ 180 ( ignoring pod since both can take it ) gets you 12 S6 AP1, 8 S5 AP1, and 4/8 S4 AP0. The Reaper @ 240 gets you 24 S6 AP1, 12/20 S4 AP1, T8, +2M, -1W, and access to SMOKESCREEN.

When shooting a Raider ( with pods ) :

Redemptor : 5.5W to 6W
Reaper : 8.3W to 11.2W
VolCons & CML : 9.1W

Getting shot by 3 Laschickens :

Redemptor : 8.9
Reaper w/ Smoke : 8.3
Contemptor : 7.1

Getting shot by 3 Eradicators :

Redemptor : 6.7
Reaper w/ Smoke : 5.3
Contemptor : 4.4

A Reaper isn't drastically softer than a Contemptor when Smoke is on. Yes you pay CP for that - you also pay CP for the Contemptor.

The Reaper is also safer to bring out in range, because it has repulsor.

Sure...no rerolls, but no points spent on a babysitter and it won't wither against Ramshackle.

All true, but don't forget that the Redemptor is able to meaningful contribute in melee as well. It gives you board presence.
60p is a big difference that adds up quickly if you want to take a second one for redundancy.

115 is enough to take an excellent Chaplain on Bike for example.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

Hey, nothing wrong with wanting a few loyalist models Daed. I've got quite a few myself. Or at least, um, parts of them. Dangling from chains, impaled on spikes........
Raiders get to reroll their one shot (about as effective as 2 lascannons) and are open topped / fly / 16" move and they are under 100 points and hold 10 dudes. If they were 130 like a twin las razorback they would still be better than a razorback. It's all about points in that case. Were the raider probably needs to go up 15% and most vehicles come down 15%.

On the issue of space marines. Space marines are the reroll faction. Their strength is bringing reroll auras to benefit multiple units where choas strength is mega buffing 1 unit. However - you aren't gonna see a lot of black legion choas players not bringing core units to go along with abandons reroll all hits aura. That is just about playing to your strengths. Auras in general are too powerful as it is - so something like core was needed to tone them down...however - the issue is they didn't reduce the cost on things that aren't core though it is a major drawback - easily high cost units that can't benefit from rerolls are significantly out performed by 2 cheaper units that can.

The way I would have fixed it is just make auras only able to affect 1 or 2 units a turn with "titanic" level units counting as 2 units for the purposes of auras. Then you could have just forgot about core all together.

Also the way I would have fixed it would have been to release all the armies rules at one time so we had a level playing field...but somehow GW makes more money this way I suppose.



The <core> keyword is so badly implemented. They created it to limit buffs, but in the space marine codex they gave almost every single unit <core>, except for tanks. Necrons on the other hand, have barely any <core> units at all, and My Will Be Done only targets a single unit.

Dreadnoughts just seem like a no brainer compared to tanks. They get <core>, they take less damage per hit, some of them don't degrade, and they are all priced competitively. Tanks get no buffs, cost a ton of points, degrade and die pretty fast.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/05 21:53:23


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I bought two Gladiators just 'cause I thought they were cool. Of course, I own three Redemptors as well, but that's because Dreadnoughts (and their equivalents) are my fav units in 40k.

Overall I agree with what Gadzilla said, that the core issue is mostly a loyalist hangup due to the abundance of auras.

I also agree with Eihnlazer's points on vehicle toughness. They talked about how 10 wasn't the max at the start of 8th, yet they are perpetually terrified of actually going near that number. Don't forget: The Reaver Titan is only Toughness 8. What's up with that?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




<CORE> being badly implemented is an understatement.

Why BA dreadnoughts didn't get CORE? Furiosos are normal dreads with different weapons and while I could at least understand an explanation that DC dreads (like the Wulfen dreads) are too unhinged to follow the chain of command, the Death Company infantry units get the CORE keyword. So that's not the reason...

GW just rolls dice or something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/05 22:16:21


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Core means something different in each codex.

I wonder how they will implement it into the tyranid codex. Currently it only has synapse. Alpha aura boosts warriors. Patriarch boosts genestealers. That is it. The army has no more aura or boosts.

How on earth do you incorperate a meaningful use of the word core without making up a bunch of new rules? I understand if other codexes, like Necron, do their own thing.

(Mind you in fifth edition you could buy auraes on the hive tyrant.)

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Eihnlazer wrote:


Anything that had armor 13 on front and sides should be tough 9. If you only had armor 13 on the front then you should be tough 8. Land raiders should be T10 though as they had 14 all around, so should monoliths.

Armor 12 on front and sides should be T8 as well, but only 12 on the front should be T7. All vehicles that had armor 10 on 3 facings or more should be T6 (which i think they nailed on that front).

Doin this opens up the super heavy monsters to raising in Toughness as well. Taking the Heirophant to T10 is perfectly fine. Taking Gargantuan Squiggoth to T10 is fine too. Heirodules and the Harridan should be T9.


I can totally get behind all of this.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

Toughness didnt ever translate properly for vehicles. A lazcannon had to roll a 6 to penetrate a LR in previous editions, now it needs a 3. Thats dumb.


While this is true, it's also true that any penetrating hit could one-shot a vehicle. And that even penetrating hits that didn't one-shot the vehicle had the capacity to incapacitate it with a single shot.

I didn't keep all of my older rulebooks, so I don't remember the exact changes from edition to edition, but in second, I think every penetrating hit either:

1) prevented the vehicle from moving on its next turn
2) prevented the vehicle from moving or shooting on its next turn
3) permanently immobilized the vehicle
4) permanently destroyed one weapon on the vehicle
5) destroyed the vehicle and possibly passengers
6) destroyed the vehicle, likely the passengers and possibly nearby units

To make matters worse, even a 6 on the GLANCING hit chart destroyed the vehicle.

I could be wrong here- like I said, I no longer have the book, and I know it went through changes in subsequent editions. While vehicles are currently easy to destroy with focused fire, even from small arms, one shot kills always felt worse to me, especially when they resulted in other squads also being destroyed- even when it was an AT weapon that scored the one-shot. YMMV.


   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Kitane wrote:
<CORE> being badly implemented is an understatement.

Why BA dreadnoughts didn't get CORE? Furiosos are normal dreads with different weapons and while I could at least understand an explanation that DC dreads (like the Wulfen dreads) are too unhinged to follow the chain of command, the Death Company infantry units get the CORE keyword. So that's not the reason...

GW just rolls dice or something.

Man, the fact that so many things are tied to Core in the admech codex is turning me off big time (yes i know the codex is busted, but the models i like basically have no support right now(Onagers, Kataphrons)).
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

With orks I don't care about CORE. Speedwaaagh based armies, which is what I play, led by a Warboss on bike or a Deffkilla Wartrike, have no bonus at all for CORE units.

 
   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






We could also take some time to think about whether the game really needs shoot buffing auras at all. I am really not convinced it does. Morale, (slight) resistance and assault buffing auras perhaps, IMHO would be enough ?
I mean why would a unit shoot better when a dude tells them "for the emperor, please don't miss"

Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in gb
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant





Luton, England

As many others have said, its not that the redemptor is undercosted, ts that the rest of the marine vehicles are very overcosted and underpowered in defensive terms.

40,000pts
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
:deathwatch: 3,000pts
:Imperial Knights: 2,000pts
:Custodes: 4,000pts 
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 addnid wrote:
We could also take some time to think about whether the game really needs shoot buffing auras at all. I am really not convinced it does. Morale, (slight) resistance and assault buffing auras perhaps, IMHO would be enough ?
I mean why would a unit shoot better when a dude tells them "for the emperor, please don't miss"


My comment about admech wasnt just about the reroll auras, most of their warlord traits or stratagems only affect core units. Right now, the only thing that my Dominus can affect are my 4 min sized squads of ranger/vanguards, which mean there is no reason for me to bring it out even if its a dope model. He can't even do melee that great because he only has 3 attacks.

Dunecrawlers litterally have;
4 stratagems that i can use on them (5 if its a mars one)
0 warlord traits that affect them (1 if you count necromecanic)
0 relics that affect them

so the model that made me pick admech as my first army and that i considered the "core" of the army for so long now receives zero support and it makes my characters also useless. Core was a mistake.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I don't think that's how we should approach models, but I see how the system can make someone feel like the model is unsupported. Rerolls are no the end-all be-all.

On the flip side Dunecrawlers can be repaired ( flat 3 WL trait, too ), have a 5++, and doctrinas. I don't think they really need more.
   
Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think that's how we should approach models, but I see how the system can make someone feel like the model is unsupported. Rerolls are no the end-all be-all.

On the flip side Dunecrawlers can be repaired ( flat 3 WL trait, too ), have a 5++, and doctrinas. I don't think they really need more.


Don't get me wrong, i don't want rerolls specifically on them. Its the feeling that almost litterally all the cool stuff i can do with the faction does not affect them that just stops me at listbuilding. Onagers feel like they don't belong in the codex.

GW should just have made auras much more expensive (or gotten rid of them and allowed characters to join squads again)

Core just makes codexes more of a mess of rules layered on top of each other. I have to learn by heart what is Core and what isnt, and its not really intuitive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/06 15:32:51


 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






Honestly I think the answer on auras should just be choose a unit to bestow that on. "this captain, LT, nob, overlord, cog boy, etc is granting rerolls to hit or wound on x unit"

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
I wouldn't say that. If Gladiators would get CORE, I'd still rather take a Redemptor.


Full dakka Redemptor @ 180 ( ignoring pod since both can take it ) gets you 12 S6 AP1, 8 S5 AP1, and 4/8 S4 AP0. The Reaper @ 240 gets you 24 S6 AP1, 12/20 S4 AP1, T8, +2M, -1W, and access to SMOKESCREEN.




Would like to point out (unless a FAQ/errata I missed changed it) None of the primaris vehicles have access to smokescreen
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




a_typical_hero wrote:
I wouldn't say that. If Gladiators would get CORE, I'd still rather take a Redemptor.


Well, strictly thematically I feel it is totally backwards.

Basic tanks and transports (and their crew) that are in essentially every engagement should be CORE, while the often half-mad, Dreadnought-interred heroes from ages past usually are the one unit that is prone to flip off the the (from their perspective) young, upstart Lieutenant and go off do their own thing, IMO.
   
Made in ro
Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia






Would like to point out (unless a FAQ/errata I missed changed it) None of the primaris vehicles have access to smokescreen

Autolaunchers give it to them.
   
 
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