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Eternal Crusade Tactics: Black Templars in 9th Edition (First Post Updated: Oct 9, 2021)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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 Marshal Loss wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Fine, you want insight? Let me quote Goonhammer since you won't take my word for it:
"I think I have decided that against all lore and preconceived notions, The Black Templars are not a melee army. Much like the Adepta Sororitas, they have transitioned into the nebulous world of being a board control army that threatens melee to the unwise heretic who dares close the gap first. ... At their core, every marine army is a melee army because marines do everything, but I don’t think Templars can afford to take only melee. "


You mean the same article where the world-class, tournament-winning author later puts Primaris Crusaders exclusively armed with melee weapons into their army list, advocating their use much as I've described? Thank you for sharing this insight with me. At this point I can't tell whether you're trolling or just completely lack reading comprehension.

Nah, you're just being insufferable and far too aggressive over an opinion you don't agree with like I walked up and kicked your dog.

Also that list your crowing about? Even John, who wrote the list says it's not optimal. Not exactly a glowing endorsement of your position.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
To get things back on track as many more people have the actual book in hand I've cleaned up some of the questions.

I put off actually sending this in due to a lot of people not having full access to the rules, so I feel continuing to collect FAQs for a mass submission by multiple people is still the correct action, though we definitely have longer thanks to the codex's wider release not coming for around a month.

In an effort to get GW to answer some question I felt it was a good idea for us to collectively pool them so everyone submitting questions to 40kfaq@gwplc.com can hit the same points so we can hopefully see some of them answered.

WARHAMMER 40,000
Q: Does the Emperor's Champion Holy Wargear rule prevent him from gaining Crusade Relics?
 
Q: If I use the Shock and Awe stratagem from Codex: Space Marines does it prevent me from using the Shock and Awe stratagem in Codex Supplement Black Templars and vice versa?
  
Q: Paragon of Fury reads that the character who makes a charge gains +1 strength. Is this correct?

Q: If so is the strength increase from the warlord trait Paragon of Fury permanent for the rest of the battle?
 
Q: Is strength increase from the warlord trait Paragon of Fury cumulative?
 
Q: Do Grimaldus' Cenobyte Servitors count as Character models for the purposes of rules such as Look Out, Sir! or secondary objectives such as Assassinate?
 
Q: Do Relic Bearers upgrades count as relics for the purposes of the Master-crafted Relic rule?
 
Q: For clarification: does an enemy shooting through dense cover suffer the -1 to hit when targeting a Black Templars unit under the Uphold the Honour of the Emperor Vow?
 
Q: As Devout Push is written it allows units affected to embark onto a transport at the end of their normal move. Is this working as intended?
 
Q: Sword Brethren have access to Astartes chainswords, but the Sword Brother in the Primaris Crusader can not. Is this intentional design despite their being enough Astartes chainswords in the kit?
 
Q: There are extra power swords and power axes in the Crusader kit left over after building the Sword Brethren. Is it possible for these to be made available to the Initiates in the squad?
 
KILL TEAM
Q: Is there plans to include a Crusader Squad or Sword Brethren Squad in Kill Team to reflect the updated models?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to tactics specifically, I saw this on the comments on r/warhammercompetetive points on the book for the Goonhammer Article and thought it makes a salient point about the supplement relative to the codex it's attached to:

I get that this may have varied through previous editions, but I get the sense people have fundamental misunderstandings about how certain armies should work in this game, whether that is due to a bias of what they want or just not seeing the direction GW has taken the game

For example, since 8th edition codexes came out, every single faction (except ynnarri which are essentially their own SF of 3 factions) has individual sub factions that take the faction formula and twist it a little to provide a different flavor. They're not meant to feel like completely and radically different armies from the other sub factions, but instead reward you for taking certain units and prioritizing one aspect of the many that make up the army. Bad Moons orks get more value out of shooting than Goffs, but both BM and Goffs want some shooting and some melee. BM want to lean more into shooting whereas Goffs lean more to melee, but orks overall tend to have strong melee options and rely on weight of numbers no matter what SF you pick

Space Marines are not an exception to this idea. Whatever chapter you are playing, SM as a faction is balanced in their approach. Every space marine list should be using a mix of shooting and melee options in order to make the most effective list, not going completely skewed to one end of the spectrum. UM may want more shooting and BT may want more melee, but there absolutely should be strong melee options in UM and strong shooting options in BT because they're both SM subfactions, so they should largely still play like any other marine faction

Maybe that's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's not like skew factions don't exist (Tau for shooting and Demons for Melee) and I think the way they've done subfactions has made more sense thematically than it used to.


In essence, Space Marines are a mixed arms faction and it may help to think of Templars as an extension of that as we go forward in our own list writing.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 14:53:41


 
   
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Played my first game with the new supplement today against Orks.

My list is on the first page, I decided to go with Wise Orator / Paragon of Fury for the Chaplain and Master of Arms for the EC.


My feedback:

- Primaris Crusader Squads are a liability. Today was the first time after dozens of games in this edition, where I had to use Insane Bravery.
- I will probably never play more than one squad. No additional Initiates, only Neophytes and only if I get them a 5+ FnP from a Priest. 2CP down the drain.
- Power Fists really need a re-roll aura of any kind to be useful, which means you basically need 2 Litanies to babysit a single squad.
- 5++ on all units was good. It came into play a lot. The mini transhuman not so much, but it is a nice bonus.
- VenDread soaked alot of damage AND didn't degrade. MM in melee will wreck anybodys face. Absolute winner.
- The EC was surprisingly tanky with Transhuman. He fought a duel against a generic Warboss on dino with that WT to attack again for each attack that didn't cause damage. Survived the first round with 1 wound. But 2 fight phases are enough to wreck enemy chars.

The Chaplain wasn't doing much most of the time, but just for laughs he DID charge those grots with full buffs going on. First he run over one Grot (5+ mortals) and then smacked them around with S8 4D attacks.

I will probably replace the Crusader squad with (Assault) Intercessors.

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a_typical_hero wrote:
Played my first game with the new supplement today against Orks.

My list is on the first page, I decided to go with Wise Orator / Paragon of Fury for the Chaplain and Master of Arms for the EC.


My feedback:

- Primaris Crusader Squads are a liability. Today was the first time after dozens of games in this edition, where I had to use Insane Bravery.
- I will probably never play more than one squad. No additional Initiates, only Neophytes and only if I get them a 5+ FnP from a Priest. 2CP down the drain.
- Power Fists really need a re-roll aura of any kind to be useful, which means you basically need 2 Litanies to babysit a single squad.
- 5++ on all units was good. It came into play a lot. The mini transhuman not so much, but it is a nice bonus.
- VenDread soaked alot of damage AND didn't degrade. MM in melee will wreck anybodys face. Absolute winner.
- The EC was surprisingly tanky with Transhuman. He fought a duel against a generic Warboss on dino with that WT to attack again for each attack that didn't cause damage. Survived the first round with 1 wound. But 2 fight phases are enough to wreck enemy chars.

The Chaplain wasn't doing much most of the time, but just for laughs he DID charge those grots with full buffs going on. First he run over one Grot (5+ mortals) and then smacked them around with S8 4D attacks.

I will probably replace the Crusader squad with (Assault) Intercessors.

I noticed you went all melee with the Crusaders. To me that highlights the issue that I suspected: that they're not the strongest in a full melee loadout.
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
I noticed you went all melee with the Crusaders. To me that highlights the issue that I suspected: that they're not the strongest in a full melee loadout.
I don't think we can say something about the loadout efficiency. The only difference in that game would have been 2 Pyreblasters to do damage in Overwatch, as the rest of the squad got basically evaporated before doing anything worthwhile.

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a_typical_hero wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I noticed you went all melee with the Crusaders. To me that highlights the issue that I suspected: that they're not the strongest in a full melee loadout.
I don't think we can say something about the loadout efficiency. The only difference in that game would have been 2 Pyreblasters to do damage in Overwatch, as the rest of the squad got basically evaporated before doing anything worthwhile.

Yeah, I saw you talking about it on B&C after I commented here. So something I mentioned there: Chaplains project their Ld in a 6" bubble via Spiritual Leader so you have Ld support for Crusader squads built into the list as long as you have at least one, and since you got spiked hard by buggies I don't think that's necessarily is the fault of the Crusader squad itself.
   
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Well that answers the "reading comprehension or trolling" question.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Nah, you're just being insufferable and far too aggressive over an opinion you don't agree with like I walked up and kicked your dog.


Simply responding in kind to your bizarre deflections, e.g. we're talking about Primaris Crusaders and you think that a quote out of context about the army as a whole is somehow applicable to a single unit, because an author saying that "BT are not a melee army" means that we shouldn't consider melee loadouts. But hey, we should ignore a unit's strengths and weaknesses because of the meta anyway...right?

Let me spell it out for you: one person saying that we aren't a melee army doesn't mean that pure melee loadouts on individual units aren't good. I never said we should only take melee, just that that's the most efficient way to run Primaris Crusaders. It may not be the best way, but it is certainly not the worst.

At least you're accepting that your view on PC melee is an opinion now. That's progress.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also that list your crowing about? Even John, who wrote the list says it's not optimal. Not exactly a glowing endorsement of your position.


Well firstly you are the one that cited the article and started digging for quotes with no context, and secondly no, he doesn't say that at all. Try reading an article to its conclusion. Testing out "some of the more unique elements of the Templars" doesn't mean that the units he placed in that list aren't equipped in an optimal fashion. He said as much on the AOW podcast: the PCs were equipped for melee because that's what the best job for them is in that list. If we're talking optimal, then it's unlikely anybody is going to take Primaris Crusaders to begin with.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I noticed you went all melee with the Crusaders. To me that highlights the issue that I suspected: that they're not the strongest in a full melee loadout.


Wait, so the same person that said this:

I think that one bad game is a bit early to throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Now thinks that a single 1000 point game where the Primaris Crusaders were the only troops choice is at all representative of a loadout's viability? Breathtaking, but very much in character. Will leave you to your "tactica".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/17 22:46:13


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Loss, you came in here looking for a fight and then when you don't get what you want you throw a fit.

No one has to agree on things, but there is no reason to brow beat people when we disagree.

You think that Crusaders should be a pure melee threat, fine. I don't agree and feel they're better as a mixed unit or as a shooting brick that can ramp to 11 and smash things that get too close. These are both fine stances, your attitude on the other hand is not fine.

And sure, I assumed too much about the melee Crusader build, but I also didn't know at the time it got spiked down hard by buggies in a 1k list. That information wasn't provided at the time of the post, so I assumed they had other issues with the discussion of "morale problems".

Look, we're all only human. So save the holier than thou nonsense and stop trying to make everything an arguement. You wag your finger at me, but so far I seem to be the only one actually trying to write a summary on the supplement (took me 7 hours to go through and type it all up, format it and spoiler tag that several thousand word novella so I don't plan to do it again anytime soon), or trying to organize a mass FAQ submission to try and get GW to actually respond to community questions. So maybe put in some actual effort in your posts if you disagree instead of trying to bend rule 1 so hard it creaks. The ad hominem just makes me embarrassed for you because it's cringe as hell.

You are free at any time to one up my efforts with an even better thread, or we can discuss things like adults, realize we have different views on the current state of the game and agree to disagree.

And for the record: my starting point with this supplment was the thought of running three full sized melee bricks of Primaris Crusaders. Because it sounds fun, and it seems strong in a vacuum. The problems I ran into when I started considering things like other armies basically meant that a lot of problems started popping up. Like the short range of the pistols prevented the army from putting chip damage on anything. Or how the army's average speed means that melee Crusader squads will struggle to catch anything faster than M6" (especially if it has some form of ignoring terrain while moving). And that's not even getting into the issues Uphold brings to the mix when you can't get the benefits of cover on a large unit that wants cover saves against small arms fire and wants an invul against shooting that can spike AP.

Look, at this point in time, unless you play in a meta where every game ends in a mid table mosh pit, I don't see melee Crusaders being the strongest possible build for them.

Especially when there are faster options, options that can be run in smaller squads and fit in transports, tougher or able to be deep struck in.

They are not a bad unit, and Templars are not a bad army. I just don't think "all melee" is the best way to run them. Now if you have solutions to the issues I've presented, I am all ears because I want to put 1000 points of melee Crusader Squads bricks on the table but I'm not seeing a lot of good ways to do that right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/18 02:24:45


 
   
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I think what I'll be doing for my 10 PCS from the starter set is CS/Pistols for the Neophytes, 2 fists and Autos for the Initiates. Only thing I can't decide on is whether to give the Sword Bro a sword or Axe. Seems a lot of people are taking axes nowadays, why I have no idea.

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In My Lab

S6 lets you wound Gravis on 3+ and GEQ on 2+.
AP-2 will often knock up against an invuln anyway, and further AP (even if it has an effect) is less impactful than the initial bit.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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My biggest problem with Crusader Squads is primarily (ha..!) how losses cause morale issues for a relatively pricey unit that - partly depending on the loadout, partly by design - need additional outside support to be effective.

I said it on B&C but want to share here as well:
Imho you need a 5+ FnP Chaplain and/or an Inquisitor with Psychic Fortitude, preferably Malleus for double deny. With this support I see a big Crusader Squad being viable.

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a_typical_hero wrote:
My biggest problem with Crusader Squads is primarily (ha..!) how losses cause morale issues for a relatively pricey unit that - partly depending on the loadout, partly by design - need additional outside support to be effective.

I said it on B&C but want to share here as well:
Imho you need a 5+ FnP Chaplain and/or an Inquisitor with Psychic Fortitude, preferably Malleus for double deny. With this support I see a big Crusader Squad being viable.

We're taking a chaplain for support anyways, and said chaplain shares Ld9 in a 6" bubble which helps with leadership, so I see this more as something to be aware of in terms of playstyle than something we need to overly invest in to run.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/18 11:26:47


 
   
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So I've got a question for others because I haven't tried Outriders at all this edition: how do people feel about them in the Uphold vow? Does a 5++ give them the durability to see play?
   
Made in fr
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Western Kentucky

So I just realized helbrecht, grimaldus, and the emperors champion are all primaris now. Which means they can no longer go in landraiders right? I know land raiders arent the most competitive choice but it seems really crappy theyve taken away the ability for me to even use them in the classic crusaders anymore.

Is there any way for me to put them in the classic marine vehicles? Say taking them with their old statline or something? Heck Id take the legends version if thats an option. I just want to be able to use my land raiders with my classic Black Templar metal heroes. Youd think at least the Emperor's champion would have a non primaris option.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Bamberg / Erlangen

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I've got a question for others because I haven't tried Outriders at all this edition: how do people feel about them in the Uphold vow? Does a 5++ give them the durability to see play?
I use them alot with my BAngels and durability was never the issue actually. They have a horrible offensive profile against anything that is not a GEQ. I don't see how we could meaningfully buff that to be honest. Maybe the litany for mortal wounds on 6s to wound? I'm not sure. You average 2 mortals that way on the charge.
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So I just realized helbrecht, grimaldus, and the emperors champion are all primaris now. Which means they can no longer go in landraiders right? I know land raiders arent the most competitive choice but it seems really crappy theyve taken away the ability for me to even use them in the classic crusaders anymore.

Is there any way for me to put them in the classic marine vehicles? Say taking them with their old statline or something? Heck Id take the legends version if thats an option. I just want to be able to use my land raiders with my classic Black Templar metal heroes. Youd think at least the Emperor's champion would have a non primaris option.
At the moment the old rules are still valid to use. I expect our characters to go Legends as soon as the regular supplement hits the shelve. Happened with the other supplements in 8. edition as well.

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Alright, I've been working with the Black Templars discord to refine questions further and add more questions. As such, I've got everything in a Google Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DlwoerwBFtF4BP_IFaZsSZy_5nXOhNo9Ypw1uSnHrA4/edit?usp=sharing and have sent it into 40kfaqs@gwplc.com using "Black Templars FAQ" as my subject line.
 
But for the sake of ease here:

WARHAMMER 40,000
Q: Does the Emperor's Champion Holy Wargear rule prevent him from gaining Crusade Relics?
 
Q: If I use the Shock and Awe stratagem from Codex: Space Marines does it prevent me from using the Shock and Awe stratagem in Codex Supplement Black Templars and vice versa?
  
Q: Paragon of Fury reads that the character who completes a charge gains +1 strength. Is this correct? If so, is the strength increase from the warlord trait Paragon of Fury permanent for the rest of the battle?
 
Q: Is strength increase from the warlord trait Paragon of Fury cumulative?
 
Q: Do Grimaldus' Cenobyte Servitors count as Character models for the purposes of rules such as Look Out, Sir! or secondary objectives such as Assassinate?
 
Q: When selecting a combi-weapon that has two profiles or a weapon such as a Flamestorm Gauntlet that has both a melee and ranged component for the Master-crafted relic do both profiles get the benefit?
 
Q: Do Relic Bearers upgrades count as relics for the purposes of the Master-crafted Relic rule, or the ability to take relics or special-issue wargear on the same model? For example: is a single model able to be a Relic Bearer carrying something like Holy Grenade and still be equipped with a Relic such as Pyrebeast?
 
Q: Does the wargear granted by "Relic Bearers" count as a relic for the purposes of warlord traits, stratagems, and other relics that may affect an enemy unit's relics?
 
Q: Can a unit embark on a transport at the end of the normal move granted by Devout Push?
 
Q: When a unit is under the effects of the Litany Fervent Acclamation, are they under the effects of both the Passion and the Vow, or just the vow?
 
KILL TEAM
Q: Are there plans to include a Crusader Squad or Sword Brethren Squad in Kill Team to reflect the updated models?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, units under Uphold don't lose the benefit of Dense cover. The reference section of the supplement calls out light and heavy cover specifically.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/10/20 12:22:32


 
   
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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also, units under Uphold don't lose the benefit of Dense cover. The reference section of the supplement calls out light and heavy cover specifically.
I would put that definitely into the FAQ. There is no reason why one place in the codex got more weight than another one.

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a_typical_hero wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Also, units under Uphold don't lose the benefit of Dense cover. The reference section of the supplement calls out light and heavy cover specifically.
I would put that definitely into the FAQ. There is no reason why one place in the codex got more weight than another one.

It's answered right there in the book under "references" so they're not going to answer it.
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

Why should "references" take priority over the cards and another instance in the book?

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a_typical_hero wrote:
Why should "references" take priority over the cards and another instance in the book?

Because it's the version of the rules that goes into full detail on what they mean by "cover". Are you REALLY trying to argue we should lose Dense Cover benefits?
Spoilered page in question cause image is big:
Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/20 22:30:35


 
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Because it's the version of the rules that goes into full detail on what they mean by "cover". Are you REALLY trying to argue we should lose Dense Cover benefits?
It might be shocking, but yes, I argue against my own interest. Just because I want the reference rule to be the correct one, doesn't mean it is. GW should clear it up, that is just the right thing to do here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/21 10:33:42


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a_typical_hero wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Because it's the version of the rules that goes into full detail on what they mean by "cover". Are you REALLY trying to argue we should lose Dense Cover benefits?
It might be shocking, but yes, I argue against my own interest. Just because I want the reference rule to be the correct one, doesn't mean it is. GW should clear it up, that is just the right thing to do here.

They did clear it up right on the page you refuse to accept as clearing it up, so that's on you not them.
   
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Bamberg / Erlangen

What do you mean? A reference page is not there to clear anything up.

Your only argument is "in 1 of 3 instances it is written the way I prefer it". Are you aware of your own bias here?

What do you lose from acknowledging that both versions could be equally valid and we need GW to tell us which one it is?

Afraid to lose the benefit of dense cover?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 11:21:25


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a_typical_hero wrote:
What do you mean? A reference page is not there to clear anything up.

Your only argument is "in 1 of 3 instances it is written the way I prefer it". Are you aware of your own bias here?

What do you lose from acknowledging that both versions could be equally valid and we need GW to tell us which one it is?

Afraid to lose the benefit of dense cover?

Sounds like you have an email to send in, because I'd already sent mine in when you posted your claim.
   
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What are some of the BT tech pieces we are confident will work in games?

Helbrecht and Grimaldus are excellent, but they aren’t a list. What are our tricks?

DA have Deathwing bricks and Ravenwing jank. BA and SW do melee better than us natively, and buff just as well. IH do everything dang well, including vehicles. WS are outrageously quick, and UM are just plain good across the board.
   
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Rivener wrote:
What are some of the BT tech pieces we are confident will work in games?

Helbrecht and Grimaldus are excellent, but they aren’t a list. What are our tricks?

DA have Deathwing bricks and Ravenwing jank. BA and SW do melee better than us natively, and buff just as well. IH do everything dang well, including vehicles. WS are outrageously quick, and UM are just plain good across the board.

The big ones I see people hooked on are Bladeguard with a Champion of the Feast SGT who is carrying the Crux Obsidian or Icon of Heinmann (depending on taste). This is followed by an Apothecary whose sole job is to resurrect the SGT when he eventually falls after tanking the heck out of anything thrown at the unit.

You can alternatively take the Sword of Judgement on him but when it comes to throwing an hammer that doubles as an anvil at the opponent means you can tank a lot of damage.

Primaris Crusader Squads generally seem to be best at full size for the increased durability and should have at least some melee (or all melee depending on the rest of your list's shooting capability) otherwise, take Intercessors if you want small to midsized units.

Grimaldus and Helbrecht also support/buff large crusader bricks as well, which basically means we do 8th edition style death stars well.

Uphold is the big favorite for Vows, but AAC is strong for letting you run the Tactical and Assault Doctrines basically at the same time, so is a good secondary if you don't want to run the 5++ invul for some reason (or just want to try bum rushing other armies with a thousand points of melee Primaris Crusaders).

That said, the army is still a Space Marine army with a lot of ways to buff melee built in, and the ability to spend CP to buff shooting (letting a unit advance and shoot at no penalty, ability to fire and fade with Devout Push or use it to push a melee unit 3" towards your opponent during their fight phase, and effectively giving blast to flamers).

People are still teasing out the army though and I haven't seen any lists crop up yet that people are hailing as "the build". A lot of stuff has been focused around buffing the units that are already good and then using that to crack the enemy lines open.
   
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Black Templars take their first Major, using three units of Primaris Crusaders...solely equipped for melee.

The melee build of these did look like the most promising


A truly shocking development.

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Happy to see Templars taking a tournament.

I'm concernced that Grimaldus and Helbrecht might be must have units, as they are so much better than their regular counterparts.

Sadly no Emperor's Champion, but at least Primaris Crusader Squads.

Can't check the army lists at the moment. Where are all the other Templars? Weren't there any? Did they not place high enough? Were they not allowed to use the new rules at the other tournaments?

Any info on how "Uphold" was used at the tournament? Was it light and heavy cover only, or dense in addition?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/18 11:05:29


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Great to see BT placing! Still does kind of suck that Vanguard Vets and Redemptor Dread block doesn't seem to change much though as a staple for SM lists.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

The Errata is out:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/ZVMKKbFuFGI5ek81.pdf

Most notably:
Devout Push can't be used to enter Transport vehicles.

The strength bonus from Paragon of Fury lasts for one turn only.

Uphold the Honour includes Dense Cover.

Fervent Acclamation gives both Vow and Passion.

And last but not least:
The Emperor's Champion can't gain Relics, Crusade Relics and weapon enhancements.

Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Connecticut

So, as someone who has a budding interest in BT, I have a few questions I’d like to poll the class on.

1.) Any viability in Outriders? I’m considering tossing in a one of squad of three, mostly just have no intention of using an attack bike or two and they seemed to be decent enough for zipping around and potentially disrupting some objectives/out of place units, etc.

2.) Upgrading an Apothecary to Chief, w/ the Crusader Helm. The idea of him following two Bladeguard Vet squads up and just keeping people alive while you inexorably advance/position yourself to unseat anyone who dares touch your midfield is something I cant quite shake.

3.) With Grimaldus retinue all giving points up, making him a bit of a liability, still worth always taking despite that due to his buffs, or can we safely avoid him without losing too much?

Blood Angels, Custodes, Tzeentch, Alpha Legion, Astra Militarum, Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Imperial Knights, Tau, Genestealer Cult.

I have a problem.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary doesn't make you unique, it makes you annoying.

 Purifier wrote:
Using your rules isn't being a dick.
 
   
 
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