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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.

Yup. Nothing changed.

Well, community engagement increased to levels that would be considered 'passable' if it were any other company.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'll lay off for now, as you're right, they're releasing things faster.

But they've crammed so much junk into the release schedule that any given book isn't coming out faster.

I don't really count campaign supplements as "releases" (since GW did those in spades back in the day as well, including free ones). As soon as we do, you actually get a pretty good stream of releases as well. They just didn't FEEL like releases.

I mean hell, go back and look at the 2003-2006 Chapter Approved (the ones that included entire army lists). IG got 3 separate updates (finalizing with the last Armored Company list in 2006).

But since they were mostly released as .pdfs for free on GW's website, people ignored them as "codex releases". It seems disingenuous to count them now just because they're physical books and aren't free.

I agree that the campaign books could be much better. I got severely burned by the Psychic Awakening releases as they were too frequent, no meaningful story, and often minimal model releases and rules. The Broken Realms for AoS was somewhat better, but even then I just want more juicy rules and campaigns to play than those books offer. The greatest insult in my mind is that the Crusade book for the Campaign book is separate, forcing you - if you are into the faction and want to play crusade - to buy two expensive books.

Now that I think about it the campaign books that got me really excited were the Gathering Storm books. A bit light on rules, but the big hero boxes were awesome. Plus the story actually had a significant change on the universal landscape.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Released October 2017 so it'd be five years. You can continue to claim it is slow if you ignore literally every other metric, so...huzzah?

Not really sure this is a great gotcha. Yes, that's *only* 5 years. But that's a very long time in a pretty power-creepy edition. With the exception of Custodes, old books are pretty uniformly garbage right now.

Yea and even though IG happens to have caught the longest span that doesn't mean nothing changed, right?

If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.

 Ordana wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The point is that NuGW isn't actually different than OldGW but is rather convincingly pretending they are.

Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.

I am definitely not in the GW white knight category, but even I have to admit they have been significantly faster with releases etc of late. IG might get boned this time around, but compare that to prior editions, its not like they aren't doing anything, they just have a lot of stuff to release for just this one game.

4th edition GW had 11 codex get released. 11. And it took them 4-5 years to get those all done. 9th edition just so far is 13 codex/supplements and 2 expansions with this one being the 3rd, along with Black Templars getting released soon. And its been about 15 months. That is light speed compared to prior years.

yes, 9th is faster then 7th and before. But how does it stack up against 8th?
For a lot of 8th they were pumping out 2 books a month. That is the recent history that people know and 9th does not live up to that.

I think they released 48-50ish Codex/supplements/index and campaign books in 8th. And that was over the space of 3 years. I'll give them a break though because of the aforementioned Global Pandemic and lockdowns.

 Ordana wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The point is that NuGW isn't actually different than OldGW but is rather convincingly pretending they are.

Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.

I am definitely not in the GW white knight category, but even I have to admit they have been significantly faster with releases etc of late. IG might get boned this time around, but compare that to prior editions, its not like they aren't doing anything, they just have a lot of stuff to release for just this one game.

4th edition GW had 11 codex get released. 11. And it took them 4-5 years to get those all done. 9th edition just so far is 13 codex/supplements and 2 expansions with this one being the 3rd, along with Black Templars getting released soon. And its been about 15 months. That is light speed compared to prior years.

yes, 9th is faster then 7th and before. But how does it stack up against 8th?
For a lot of 8th they were pumping out 2 books a month. That is the recent history that people know and 9th does not live up to that.

Again, pandemic, political stage, and whatnot changed a lot on how they operate, especially with their insistence on physical based sales. The problem with releasing new books digitally long before actual release is that they might not have available models to sell that were supposed to be in the new codex. Which opens another can of worms.

I imagine that if we didn't have the big events in our lives for the past two years we would have been seeing around 2 books a month. Even AoS with 3.0 is having an extremely slow start because of their slowed down release schedule.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.

From the dumpster fire that was the Ork 9th edition codex, I think GW needs to step up production quality control. Bits were missing, horrible rules errors etc.

I mean...they literally created a specialist unit called "Trukk Boyz" but because they couldn't hire a writer who understand the ork codex the unit itself was unable to ride in trukkz

Removed - no piracy please

Yeah, counting all the junk GW came out with in 8th as "releases" means we have to count all the .pdf army lists (and their updates) that came out in 3rd and 4th as "releases".

This means Codex Feral Orks, the Kroot Mercenaries army list, the Codex Armageddon (and its two updates), the Armored Company List, Snakebite Orks, Speed Freak Orks (their own army list), and allllllllll the other stuff.

Orks and IG (and the dutiful Kroot Mercenaries) are the only ones I can remember because I've been researching them (playing 4th with an ork-playing friend) but it's really quite staggering how much free content is available back then that would be counted as a "release" in 8th because they stuffed it in a full-color hardback and charged money for it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.

This isn't true though, because reworks aren't guaranteed. Look at Nids -- the monstrous creatures were garbage in 6e, they didn't get a 7e codex and remained garbage, and then with Index 8e, profiles were basically transcribed wholesale with no reworks and retained verbatim in the 8e codex. Who's to say that doesn't happen with IG in 2023 as well?

And by the flipside, look at the codices we've gotten in 9E.

If you want to pretend that Mechanicus is the same as it was before? That's fine. It's wrong, but it's fine that you want to do that.
Marines? Necrons?

 Kanluwen wrote:
And by the flipside, look at the codices we've gotten in 9E.

If you want to pretend that Mechanicus is the same as it was before? That's fine. It's wrong, but it's fine that you want to do that.
Marines? Necrons?

Do you think Marines and Necron players are satisfied with their codices today? It sure doesn't seem that way. And yes, Admech is flat out busted. Yes, Guard could also get a flat out busted codex in 2023 too, but that's actually not a good outcome overall, we don't want more codices like that.

Anyone else remember that time that one inquisitor sent massed waves of cadians and deathwatch to octarius to forever lock the tyranids in combat?

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Anyone else remember that time that one inquisitor sent massed waves of cadians and deathwatch to octarius to forever lock the tyranids in combat?

LMAO yeah I hate how the Imperium got shoehorned into the conflict. It was amazing and totally fluffy to have a Orks/Nids-exclusive conflict but we can't have something without da humies.

This is a tough one- I don't want to white knight either- a lot of the complaints are totally legitimate.

PA books WOULD have worked for me personally, but only in the mature stage of persistent edition. What I liked about the idea, was that it felt like it was supposed to be:

"Alright, all the dexes are out now, but we still want to be able to give EVERY faction new content EVERY year without invalidating the existing books. This will prevent us from having to blow up the entire edition and rerelease EVERYTHING all over again..."

But it didn't work out like that, and it broke me a little when it didn't. Because in that context, it could have worked, but as soon as you add edition churn back into the mix, everything went to hell.

For me, I think the key is that every faction gets a dex and at least one new model every edition. In Unit's example, while the period in YEARS is equal, the oldhammer 6 year wait meant that IG went a whole edition without a dex. Even though the 6 year wait this time around SUUUCKS (and it genuinely does- I'm not claiming otherwise), they are going to get a dex this ed... Unless the unthinkable happens and we do return to the days of have/ have not editions.

I also think 9th's campaign content should have waited til all the dexes were out. If it had, it would be like that pattern that PA SHOULD have established. Once the dexes are out, I far prefer campaign books driving the release cycle than an entirely new edition.

When the Charadon series happened, I equated it with Vigilus, which was also a campaign series released before all the dexes were out. I had figured it would be the only campaign until the dex cycle was done, then I had expected other campaign(s) in the style of PA... Hopefully to maintain a persistent edition.

And yet, here we are.

Still, there are some things about the new system which I think will be excellent additions to a campaign cycle system... But again, none of it really works until ALL the dexes are out.

The additions that I'm speaking of here are the vs. boxes, the prerelease boxes and the coordination between 40k and Kill Team.

In a world where all the dexes are out, one VS box (40k), one VS box (KT) and one pre-release box, along with one campaign book and one mission pack, plus a single unit for any faction in the campaign book that DIDN'T get models via the boxes per quarter. Finally, each quarter would also see releases for the individual kits that had been locked in boxes during the previous quarter.And you know, in a world where all the dexes were already out, as far as I'm concerned, that's a perfect way to manage a persistent edition. And I DO think this is what GW is working towards.

I think that doing this during the Codex release cycle was an attempt to test the system and train the customer so that once dexes were out, we would already be familiar with the quarterly, campaign driven release cycle.

And GW did plan to do all of these things this edition, all WHILE releasing 2 dexes per month! It was wicked ambitious. If it had worked, it would have been better than what we got, because people could choose to skip the campaign pieces and box sets and just focus on the dexes and individual models. But I still think it would have been just too much.

Unfortunately, the world fell apart. And remember, it isn't just the pandemic. It is:

- the Pandemic
- the international shipping container shortage
- Brexit
- petroleum producers limiting supply and driving up fuel costs, either because of a shortage of workers (quarantine/ lockdown) or, the more cynical possibility that they're doing it to raise the price of fuel in order to make up for the losses they suffered during the lockdowns.

Any one of these problems would have been manageable. Even any two of them would have been manageable. But all 4? Not a chance it wasn't going to wreck the release schedule.

As for the digital dexes: I 100% agree that this SHOULD have been GW's solution, and it was a terrible lost opportunity. One caveat though: E-Pubs suck- the fact that they can't scale on a PC because the interface FORCES the entire page to be displayed made me hate every digital purchase I ever made. I've never had a legible Epub, and I regret every purchase I ever made. I tried five different readers without any luck at all. And no, buying a device that only reads Epubs, in my view, is not a solution. I pretty much LIVE in front of a PC screen- the idea that I need a different device to enjoy a digital product is repugnant to me- I even hate cellphone APPS- using a 3 inch screen to do anything makes as much sense to me as a frontal lobotomy; anything that I could do on my phone (with the exception of phone calls, the clock and my MP3 player) can wait til I'm at home and I can enjoy it with a full screen and a real keyboard.

When Epubs were available, every single one of them should have come with a warning: you will need a dedicated reading device to enjoy this product, because we prefer to protect the integrity of the product by displaying a whole page rather than worry about the experience of any customer who is foolish enough to try and read the product on a PC.

On a side note: GW has proven they can get digital docs right(ish). The Warhammer Vault is fabulous- (except for the paywall part... BUT, if the vault included every current dex, there would be far fewer complaints about the subscription service, though of course the pricetag for the sub would be higher too).

Anyway, hopefully that didn't come across as white-knight; I acknowledge that the complaints are legit, and I even added my own (I really, really hate Epubs... Like, so much that it's hard to find the words to express it; sorry for the rant).

GW provided .pdfs to update army lists (for free no less!) in earlier editions, and that is a solved format.

EPUBs are less piratable, true, but the whole point of the .pdfs earlier in the day was that they were free anyways...

SemperMortis wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s

3rd Edition Ork Codex 1999
4th Edition Ork Codex 2008
5th Edition Ork Codex N/A
6th Edition Ork Codex N/A
7th Edition Ork Codex 2014 (Arguably the worst codex of the edition)
8th Edition Ork Codex November 2018 (Good Codex)
9th Edition Ork Codex 2021

The only faction which gets Codex love on a regular basis is the Space Marines.

3rd Edition SM Codex 1998
4th Edition SM Codex 2004
5th Edition SM Codex 2008
6th Edition SM Codex 2013
7th Edition SM Codex 2015
8th Edition SM Codex 2017
8th Edition SM II Codex 2019
9th Edition SM Codex 2019

and of course that is without any of the supplements or other Chapters. GW does what makes them money. And power armor makes money

You were doing so well on the dates until that last one....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oh, and here I was thinking they'd changed and would make sure to update codexes more quickly and that their words were more than just "ok, ok, sisters are a real army now".

WHY do you keep drinking the Marketing Kool-Aid??

My mistake, I read the wrong date its 2020...so they went August 2019 to...October 2020

A full year and 2 months between

New IG Codex...


...Supplement


I mean, technically, yes, it is better than nothing by virtue of being not nothing itself (and maybe it ends up being great), but...maybe don't wake me unless there's something worth being awake for, y'know?

Feel the late release of codexes would be better received if it had a reasonably healthy wave of models with it.

Waiting years and then getting a character model and a book that could have come out years earlier feels kind of sad.

Tyel wrote:
Feel the late release of codexes would be better received if it had a reasonably healthy wave of models with it.

Right now? The rumour, which is from the so far 99/100% accurate source, is that Cadians are getting a redone Shock Troop kit, plastic Kasrkin, and alongside of a new tank.

The rumour for Death Korps is that there's something like 3-4 boxes and an equivalent number of blisters to come.

I know that a late codex release would not be well received if they did anything that mothballed peoples' existing units or the like. Which Guard really needs to have happen, and which if the Veteran Guardsman rules from Kill Team are any kind of a teaser for--they're planning on doing.

Waiting years and then getting a character model and a book that could have come out years earlier feels kind of sad.

Expecting every single time for a book to necessitate "waves of models" is always going to make you feel disappointed.

But they're a miniatures company!!!

I think it depends on the army in question.
Tsons and DG are an example of very recent model lines, both of which didn't really need anything huge, although I do think Tsons took the bullet for being the first Marked Legion faction. There could and should have easily been some Havoc equivalent or something else and I think it's pretty obvious this was realised and an "OH " moment was had in 8th when the Codex got bolstered by AoS ported units. Druhkari could have finally axed all of the finecast stuff but hey ho.
But for the other releases so far in 9th? Marines got X as always, Orks got quite a bit, Necrons got a big revamp, Admech are still pretty new and got quite a bit very recently IIRC, and Sisters got a full release very late into 8th and then got more in 9th.
For non-9th armies we have:
Custodes - very new range.
GSC - very new range.
Craftworlds - rumoured to be getting a revamp.
CSM - again a lot of new stuff but also rumoured for revamps.
Daemons - a solid range with stuff that's aged fine but also has seen lots of new kits.
Nids - not new but IMO has aged fine apart from a few outliers.
Guard - difficult because lots is fine but lots of other stuff has aged badly *cough*catachans*cough*.
Knights/Chaos Knights - both very new model lines but also very intentionally small lines.
T'au - again a bit of a mixed bag because they've not got a lot super recently but the last revamp did a lot of good for the range. pretty much just the non-T'au aliens that look dated.

Mechanicus was a weird situation. As much as it's been harped upon that "they were made to be a single book!", that is not the way the sculptors have talked about the projects. Skitarii was, according to Goodwin, designed as a singular range and Cult was designed as a singular range.

Matters were not helped that they did this weird staggered release. We saw the Skorpius tank/transport come out with Apocalypse, the Techpriest Manipulus was a Kill Team exclusive and then the Serberys, Pteraxii, and Archaeopter came out with the Manipulus solo release and the first time that the Skorpius saw its rules in a physical book rather than just the instruction sheet with Engine War.

Then come the new 9E AdMech book and the lone Marshal release.

Guard has something big coming. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when it drops though.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.

From the dumpster fire that was the Ork 9th edition codex, I think GW needs to step up production quality control. Bits were missing, horrible rules errors etc.

I mean...they literally created a specialist unit called "Trukk Boyz" but because they couldn't hire a writer who understand the ork codex the unit itself was unable to ride in trukkz

That's nothing new and won't change. Gw has yet to make book that doesn'"t need errata

 Kanluwen wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Feel the late release of codexes would be better received if it had a reasonably healthy wave of models with it.

Right now? The rumour, which is from the so far 99/100% accurate source, is that Cadians are getting a redone Shock Troop kit, plastic Kasrkin, and alongside of a new tank.

The rumour for Death Korps is that there's something like 3-4 boxes and an equivalent number of blisters to come.

I know that a late codex release would not be well received if they did anything that mothballed peoples' existing units or the like. Which Guard really needs to have happen, and which if the Veteran Guardsman rules from Kill Team are any kind of a teaser for--they're planning on doing.

Waiting years and then getting a character model and a book that could have come out years earlier feels kind of sad.

Expecting every single time for a book to necessitate "waves of models" is always going to make you feel disappointed.

So Cadians and Death Korps are getting stuff... I hope you mean other guard when you say "cadians" (even though Kasrkin and Shock Troops are Cadia-exclusive units...)

Otherwise I will definitely be disappointed. It would be like the SM coming out but with all the new models being for Iron Hands and the Emperor's Executioners exclusively

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I hope you mean other guard when you say "cadians"

He doesn't:

 Kanluwen wrote:

This isn't for Guard players.

It's for Cadian players.

Nope, the rumour was specific to the Cadians. There's apparently artwork of the redesign in the Kill Team Core book.

They have a bit more of a "ragged" look to them.

Catachans are supposedly getting a KT box next year, with Lictors as their opposition.

Welp, I would rather have it fast than reworked, if the rework only applies to 10% of the army.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Welp, I would rather have it fast than reworked, if the rework only applies to 10% of the army.

When I'm saying "rework" with regards to the codex, I'm referring to the army itself.

I am fairly convinced at this point that we're going to see something Big happening for Guard. They would have just pushed out some updated kits and a book or the DKoK boxes and been done with it otherwise. There's no sign of a codex on the horizon, it just keeps seeming like they're rolling out some iconic regiments in a method that would work under the current book.