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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Well don't forget first generation Destroyers had pilots and after them the only other vehicle in the early days was the Obilisk.


It was only the second generation that introduced the idea of Destroyers being half necron and half vehicle.


So the idea of a Necron Pilot has been within the lore from the very early days of their creation.

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Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





All of this discussion makes me wonder why Necrons, who have stupidly advanced technology, don't use drones... Why would you bother with a pilot when you can remote-control the aircraft?

Simple humans have figured that out in the 3rd millenium... then probably forgot it at some point because of how backwards the Imperium is. But what's the necrons' excuse? For that matter, why don't the eldar do it? Craftworlders can't afford casualties, but they still like to have their soldiers on the front lines just like any other army...
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

A constant theme in the setting is the distrust of artificial life forms. Don't forget this is a setting where souls are tangible proven things and where machines can be corrupted by Chaos. It's likely that fully mechanical armies are seen as too high a risk by races who have discovered and encountered the Warp in its various forms. Corrupting individual living creatures is one thing, but if you give it one big juicy AI to corrupt suddenly its a whole lot easier to lose control of your whole army!


Eldar won't use them because AI was part of what allowed them to slip into the period of pure excess that birthed Slaanesh. They have a vast fear of Slaanesh and do all that they can to avoid slipping back into old decedent ways. Also don't forget that Eldar feel experiences on a very deep level so a part of them wants to engage with war; they want to be on the front lines at some core part inside themselves.

The Imperium had the Men of Iron uprising and even now don't use AI overtly and make heavy use of slaved human minds - servo skulls. Even the concept of AI is hidden from them as the "machine spirit" .

Necrons and Tau make use of AI, but only in supportive roles in both cases. Necrons do go further than most, but even so the Canoptek were designed as guardians not front-line armies. They are more being pressed into service in that role right now because many Tombs are not fully awakened and even when they are, the millennia has taken is toll.



Also don't forget part of why modern armies from affluent nations are pushing for more drone and remote operation is because we place a higher and higher value on individual human life. The Imperium places almost no value on individual human life. They've no pressure or need to develop drone technology when they have an excess of human bodies they can use instead. Even before you get to issues with the Men of Iron uprising and its resulting impacts on attitudes toward AI.



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Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





I wasn't talking about AI, but remote operation. You don't need any sort of intelligence to be in the machine itself.
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Overread wrote:
So the idea of a Necron Pilot has been within the lore from the very early days of their creation.


Sure, but it was dumb then, too. #TeamNoPilots

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

Dynastic job creation program, obviously.

Otherwise there is little point. The same goes for battle droids manning separatist vehicles in Star Wars. It's just jarring, unlike the starfighters which were themselves whole droids, and thus worked on first sight. Having vehicles in a robotic army be driven by AI is the way to go to get the right impression. Robot crew just looks poorly thought-through.

Space opera and science fantasy don't need to make perfect sense even if internal consistency is nice, but they need to give the right impression for what they're aiming for. Ergo, robot pilots look silly. (This is similar to power-armoured Imperial elite forces being based on monk and nun orders respectively, since the regressed Imperium plays on archaic strings. And similar to Tyranids receiving bio weapons that were symiotically grown into their bodies.)

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/10/22 15:57:50


   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







 Tiennos wrote:
I wasn't talking about AI, but remote operation. You don't need any sort of intelligence to be in the machine itself.


But then you need a secure way to transmit information between the base station and combat unit. Whilst it would be possible to do, it also runs the risk of jamming breaking that link, or your unit being hijacked by a pirate broadcast.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Tiennos wrote:
I wasn't talking about AI, but remote operation. You don't need any sort of intelligence to be in the machine itself.



Ahh I get you

The jamming issue has been raised just above, the other is the scale of warfare. Whilst the board game is limited, the actual lore has vast battles with thousands to hundreds of thousands to millions of combatants. These are vast forces at play and trying to recreate that with remote drones would just mean that you've got a huge bunker that would become the target of attacks. Plus as soon as you start doubling up so that 1 message relays to multiple combatant units you increase any damage from any hacking of that system.

If you keep your control in space you hit the issue that happened in Star Wars - forces with viable space fleets would fight it out in space at which point ground forces are almost worthless at holding a world because if their controller in space is lost; they are totally disabled.



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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
We have nothing to indicate that Necron vehicle designs predate biotransference.

Ghost Arks were explicitly mentioned to be a civilian vehicle in the 5th ed codex, iirc. Its previous function was a hearse / corpse wagon.

Nothing in the background of the Ghost Ark (Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.53) suggests that the Ghost Ark as a flying repair barge made of living metal etc. existed pre-biotransference, any more than it suggests that the Ghost Ark is still a wooden wheeled cart.

It is clear that 'Ghost Ark' is a name which has been used for a variety of transport vehicles within Necron(tyr) society over time.
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






During the Biotransference it was a mechanised vehicle used to gather the populace for conversion. It got the name "Ghost Ark" because people began to claim they could see the spirits of the dead haunting the vehicles.
As for the Doom Scythes, those pilots have enhanced android brains that allow them to rapidly analyse and implement billions of possible strategies in a nanosecond. Using an enhanced Necron brain rather than simply an AI (because Necrons are not AI) is just better.
   
Made in ie
Dakka Veteran




Ireland

 Overread wrote:
Well don't forget first generation Destroyers had pilots and after them the only other vehicle in the early days was the Obilisk.


It was only the second generation that introduced the idea of Destroyers being half necron and half vehicle.


So the idea of a Necron Pilot has been within the lore from the very early days of their creation.


Good point.

I always forget about those maybe it is because of just how God awful the models were, an also the 90's being so long ago.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/22 17:23:40


The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Gert wrote:
During the Biotransference it was a mechanised vehicle used to gather the populace for conversion. It got the name "Ghost Ark" because people began to claim they could see the spirits of the dead haunting the vehicles.

No.
They were called Ghost Arks when they were wooden corpse carts:
'There have been Ghost Arks since the very earliest days of the Necrontyr. Then, they were simple wooden carriages pulled by toiling beasts of burden...' Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.53
   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





 Overread wrote:
A constant theme in the setting is the distrust of artificial life forms. Don't forget this is a setting where souls are tangible proven things and where machines can be corrupted by Chaos. It's likely that fully mechanical armies are seen as too high a risk by races who have discovered and encountered the Warp in its various forms. Corrupting individual living creatures is one thing, but if you give it one big juicy AI to corrupt suddenly its a whole lot easier to lose control of your whole army!


Eldar won't use them because AI was part of what allowed them to slip into the period of pure excess that birthed Slaanesh. They have a vast fear of Slaanesh and do all that they can to avoid slipping back into old decedent ways. Also don't forget that Eldar feel experiences on a very deep level so a part of them wants to engage with war; they want to be on the front lines at some core part inside themselves.

The Imperium had the Men of Iron uprising and even now don't use AI overtly and make heavy use of slaved human minds - servo skulls. Even the concept of AI is hidden from them as the "machine spirit" .

Necrons and Tau make use of AI, but only in supportive roles in both cases. Necrons do go further than most, but even so the Canoptek were designed as guardians not front-line armies. They are more being pressed into service in that role right now because many Tombs are not fully awakened and even when they are, the millennia has taken is toll.



Also don't forget part of why modern armies from affluent nations are pushing for more drone and remote operation is because we place a higher and higher value on individual human life. The Imperium places almost no value on individual human life. They've no pressure or need to develop drone technology when they have an excess of human bodies they can use instead. Even before you get to issues with the Men of Iron uprising and its resulting impacts on attitudes toward AI.




Funnily enough orks also make use of some limited AI

"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






That's still how it got the name though which was the important bit.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Gert wrote:
That's still how it got the name though which was the important bit.

That is not what the Codex either says, nor implies.
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





 Overread wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
I wasn't talking about AI, but remote operation. You don't need any sort of intelligence to be in the machine itself.



Ahh I get you

The jamming issue has been raised just above, the other is the scale of warfare. Whilst the board game is limited, the actual lore has vast battles with thousands to hundreds of thousands to millions of combatants. These are vast forces at play and trying to recreate that with remote drones would just mean that you've got a huge bunker that would become the target of attacks. Plus as soon as you start doubling up so that 1 message relays to multiple combatant units you increase any damage from any hacking of that system.

If you keep your control in space you hit the issue that happened in Star Wars - forces with viable space fleets would fight it out in space at which point ground forces are almost worthless at holding a world because if their controller in space is lost; they are totally disabled.



Necron technology is incredibly advanced though. Compared to what most necron units/weapons can do, secure communications doesn't seem like a big deal. And their tombs are already prime targets anyway, so having controllers in there wouldn't make much of a difference.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Don't forget its not just technological barriers they have to overcome with remote control. Chaos can also interrupt radio waves and the like.

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The Swarm Arises

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