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Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 Kanluwen wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

I don't see why there needs to be a vehicle and infantry portion.

Because if you don't split them out, you end up with weird interactions...like how your Cadian one is useless for 99% of vehicles, with the only ones able to benefit from the full trait being Leman Russes thanks to being able to be issued Tank Orders or where Steel Legion infantry are now some of the toughest goons around because of "industrial efficiency".

It fits Steel Legion perfectly because they're city fighters that fight Orks a lot. I don't think it's a problem that the Cadian one is useless for most vehicles, Chapter Tactics exist to make some units better than others, it's inherent in the system. The only way to have Chapter Tactics apply equally to all units is for it to apply nothing at all, knowing this limitation of the system you might as well lean into it and make it simple and unobtrusive.

They all had WS 3+ in 8th. They wouldn't have their own datasheet if I had my way.

They don't have their own datasheet now though?
The Grenadiers do, currently, in Legends and the Engineers+Death Riders do in the Compendium.

Death Riders and Engineers both are WS4+, not 3+ in the Compendium.
Grenadiers are 3+ in Legends.

What's your point? My point about datasheets is for the others in this thread that want 3+ Infantry Squad variants, I think 1 is enough.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 07:42:58


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 vict0988 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

I don't see why there needs to be a vehicle and infantry portion.

Because if you don't split them out, you end up with weird interactions...like how your Cadian one is useless for 99% of vehicles, with the only ones able to benefit from the full trait being Leman Russes thanks to being able to be issued Tank Orders or where Steel Legion infantry are now some of the toughest goons around because of "industrial efficiency".

It fits Steel Legion perfectly because they're city fighters that fight Orks a lot.

Everyone fights Orks(or worse!) a lot. The Steel Legion are more famed for their schtick of fighting mounted in Chimeras en masse than fighting Orks.

I don't think it's a problem that the Cadian one is useless for most vehicles, Chapter Tactics exist to make some units better than others, it's inherent in the system. The only way to have Chapter Tactics apply equally to all units is for it to apply nothing at all, knowing this limitation of the system you might as well lean into it and make it simple and unobtrusive.

You took the vehicle trait from Steel Legion and put it on everyone.
If it's not the perfect encapsulation of why there should be two different traits, I don't know what is.

And the argument of "if it's going to be broken on one thing, you might as well just make it apply on everything!" is just...no.


They all had WS 3+ in 8th. They wouldn't have their own datasheet if I had my way.

They don't have their own datasheet now though?
The Grenadiers do, currently, in Legends and the Engineers+Death Riders do in the Compendium.

Death Riders and Engineers both are WS4+, not 3+ in the Compendium.
Grenadiers are 3+ in Legends.

What's your point? My point about datasheets is for the others in this thread that want 3+ Infantry Squad variants, I think 1 is enough.

Speaking as the person who usually is pushing for it, it's not "3+ infantry squad variants".
It's 3, max, based upon the different visual aesthetics for Guard Regiments.

"Light Infantry Squads" match up with the Catachan, Tallarn, and Tanith aesthetics.
"Infantry Squads" match up with the Death Korps, Steel Legion, and Valhallan aesthetics.
"Heavy Infantry Squads" match up with the Cadian and Vostroyan aesthetic.

Conscripts should be and always should have been their own kit rather than just tacked onto the basic kit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 13:34:09


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Do we want fluff or actual rules here?

Cadians should get bonuses to Obsec and free overwatch, Call it "Hold the Line against all odds"

Mordians,Tallyrans, and Catachans can keep whatever they had in 8th. Really the only broken one seems to be Catachan, where you get +1 to Strength.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Honestly, I'd redesign the entire codex according to:

<REGIMENT TYPE> and <HOMEWORLD> Keywords

So you'd have something like:

"You may choose a Regiment Type from the following list for your Astra Militarum Detachment. Each unit in that detachment replaces their <REGIMENT TYPE> keyword with the keyword chosen:
- Infantry Regiment: Platoon Commanders with the Infantry Regiment keyword may issue an order to every unit in their platoon (assuming IG platoon structure comes back). Units with this keyword and the Senior Officer special rule may issue orders to non-Regiment units such as Ogryn, etc. to represent their experience in using support assets for their infantry.

- Armored Regiment: When a Tank Commander with the Armored Regiment keyword issues an order, they may choose any Leman Russ on the battlefield. Furthermore, if that Leman Russ has any other members in its squadron, they also benefit from the order no matter where they are on the battlefield.

- Mechanized Regiment: When a Mechanized Regiment Officer issues orders, they may do so from inside a Chimera, counting as being within 3" of a Vox. Furthermore, orders may be issued to Chimeras themselves, who follow them exactly as infantry, counting their Lasgun Arrays as a single Rapid Fire 6 Lasgun."

- Artillery Regiment: Masters of Ordnance in an Artillery regiment may issue orders to Basilisks, Wyverns, and Manticores. These orders function as they would for infantry, though it may mean the order does nothing (e.g. ordering a Basilisk to Front Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire does nothing, as a Basilisk has no lasgun)."

etc. etc.

Then I would have homeworld benefits on the side, such as:
"Cadia: Cadian guardsmen are deadeye shots and always follow orders. Cadian units ignore the first -1 to-hit applied to them due to enemy action or terrain. Furthermore, Cadian Officers may issue one additional order.

Armageddon: Armageddon's harsh atmosphere and rapid industrial production give these men extensive training with transport vehicles before they've even left their homes. Armageddon units may disembark from Armageddon Transports after they have moved, instead of before, but cannot subsequently move in the movement phase.

Mordia The Mordian Iron Guard are steadfast and stoic, famous for adopting formations on the battlefield. If every model in a Mordian unit is in base contact with at least two other models from the same unit (including vehicle squadrons even after they've broken up), then they gain +1 BS when firing Rapid Fire weapons (or heavy weapons if it is a Vehicle)."

etc. etc.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/11/02 17:52:11


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

My only quibble with that, Unit, is "Armored" and "Mechanized".

I'd say "Tank" and "Armored" Regiments instead.

Theoretically, I'd also strike the Armageddon bits about transports and make that a hallmark of Armored Regiments instead and give the Armageddon units something like an ability to remount after firing if they aren't within a certain distance of enemies.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Sure, can do that.

As for the second bit, I assumed Regimental orders would still exist basically as they are now, and that's what the current Armageddon order does.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Maybe. I have a hunch that Orders are going to be changed in a big way.

Reason for the change on the names, by the by, is that some of the lore swaps it up based upon Regiment.

Cadians for example have "Armored" Regiments being a combination of Tank and Mechanized styles.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Also here are some new Regiment Type ideas:

Super-Heavy: The first Super-Heavy Detachment in a Super-Heavy Regiment costs 0CP instead of 6, and subsequent Super-Heavy detachments cost 3CP, so long as they only include Astra Militarum Titanic units. Furthermore, one Astra Militarum Titanic Vehicle (other than Imperialis Aeronautica) becomes a Character and, if chosen as the warlord, gains the following warlord trait: Super-Heavy Ace: This model has BS3+.

Siege Regiment: Siege regiments are mixed battlegroups that are experts at both holding and attacking fortifications. The detachment cost of any Fortification Detachments taken in an army with a Siege Regiment Warlord is 0CP. Furthermore, when a Heavy Weapon fired by Siege Regiment unit does damage to a Fortification datasheet, it does an additional d3 damage.

Random spitballing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe. I have a hunch that Orders are going to be changed in a big way.

Reason for the change on the names, by the by, is that some of the lore swaps it up based upon Regiment.

Cadians for example have "Armored" Regiments being a combination of Tank and Mechanized styles.


Interesting.

I was under the impression that mixed regiments would be called a "battlegroup" and that, strictly speaking, a Regiment wouldn't have mixed unit types (except Krieg siege regiments because ~waves hands~).

So you'd be right about an Armored Battlegroup, but wrong about an Armored Regiment.

But at this point it's quibbling over semantics so that's not really that important XD

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/02 18:11:30


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

The whole "Battlegroup" thing is just...weird. I forgot about that tbh.

Like I said though, nomenclature changes depending upon the world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also here are some new Regiment Type ideas:

Super-Heavy: The first Super-Heavy Detachment in a Super-Heavy Regiment costs 0CP instead of 6, and subsequent Super-Heavy detachments cost 3CP, so long as they only include Astra Militarum Titanic units. Furthermore, one Astra Militarum Titanic Vehicle (other than Imperialis Aeronautica) becomes a Character and, if chosen as the warlord, gains the following warlord trait: Super-Heavy Ace: This model has BS3+.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that going forward Tank Commanders are purchased as their own thing...and then applied to any vehicle with the "Tank" keyword in your army.

Siege Regiment: Siege regiments are mixed battlegroups that are experts at both holding and attacking fortifications. The detachment cost of any Fortification Detachments taken in an army with a Siege Regiment Warlord is 0CP. Furthermore, when a Heavy Weapon fired by Siege Regiment unit does damage to a Fortification datasheet, it does an additional d3 damage.

Random spitballing.


Thinking some more on things...
I wouldn't allow for non-Regiment units to get Orders in the Infantry Regiment as standard.
I'd make stuff like that Warlord or Homeworld related.
I'd also make it so that Masters of Ordnance get their own set of Orders, period, and get swapped to the HQ slot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 18:28:09


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Yeah again, I was making an assumption the codex largely stayed as-is and we were just changing the Regiment rules.

We could put a wishlist down for all IG codex changes
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

And this is where part of the issue with discussing this dumpsterfire of a book lays.

It's old and should have been replaced earlier, but it seems like there's a big shift coming simply based upon how long we're waiting.
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






An assault company in the guise of a krieg assault companies doctrine in the lore could be cool (rapid assault on a line breach to widen it) , being able to switch lasguns from rapid fire to assault weapons could be cool, as well as potential a charge or fight phase boost also. I get that Krieg assault companies are usually quite elite and also mounted, but I just like the idea of a proper assault regiment that covers ground quick to take advantage of breaks in the enemy lines and widens a breach.

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
An assault company in the guise of a krieg assault companies doctrine in the lore could be cool (rapid assault on a line breach to widen it) , being able to switch lasguns from rapid fire to assault weapons could be cool, as well as potential a charge or fight phase boost also. I get that Krieg assault companies are usually quite elite and also mounted, but I just like the idea of a proper assault regiment that covers ground quick to take advantage of breaks in the enemy lines and widens a breach.


Sure, that could be a regiment type. (lasguns become 18" Assault 2 or the like).

I've even considered things like Air Defense Regiments (Hydras can receive orders and get some kind of networked fire control, like they can all draw line of sight to a flying unit if a single one can to represent those times those units flew over the terrain) and Bastion Regiments (Fortifications gain +2 toughness and garrisoned guardsmen +1 BS or the like). There's tons of potential.
   
 
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