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Let this be a lesson in proper narrative writing kids, DON'T USE DEAD ENDS! It's gakky writing that inevitably comes back to end up biting you in the butt. See: Death and return of Superman. Or every dead superhero arc ever.

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean Fezz. Where is the dead end with regards to the decree passive?

Basically, the decree passive is dumb writing, because nowadays GW is breaking their own rules, and making up new lore to justify breaking the contradiction.

How so?
Frateris Militia have been around for ages and have always been fine because they're not a standing army.
Crusaders are more bodyguards than soldiers and therefore don't count as a standing army.
Your example didn't actually give much detail as to what position the new Ecclesiarch held in the command structure of the forces you say he commanded so I'm still not sure what your point is. Is the Ecclesiarch in direct command of some of the forces in Ultramar like the Tetrarchs or Guilliman, or is he simply a figurehead sent to shout sermons to keep everyone faithful in the face of Chaos?

 Tiennos wrote:
I guess it would be similar to the historical crusades. Crusaders did what the pope asked, but weren't part of the pope's army. Frateris militia go where the ecclesiarchy says they should, but they aren't under its direct command.

Obviously, it doesn't make a big difference in practice, but officially there's no breach of the decree. Is that hypocritical? Of course it is! But allowing an all-female army because they aren't "men under arms" is obviously not in the spirit of the law either. The decree passive has been very loosely applied from day one. In the end it's basically up to the inquisition to decide if it's okay or not.

Yeah, an organization as large and influential as the Imperial Church is going to get away with some loose interpretations of the law, another reference to the hypocrisy of the Medieval Church.
For example, monks aren't allowed to eat meat. So what did they do? They said beavers were fish.
An exception to the meat eating rule was if you're sick. So they faked being ill.

Its kind of the same here; The Imperial Church aren't supposed to have any sort of military force, but they get away with it by using technicalities and incredibly literal interpretations of the law, and since they are so politically influential they can get away with it. If the Church had no political power, they probably wouldn't be able to pull that sort of thing off.

chaos0xomega wrote:

I think they take the plausible deniability used by by contractors in the real world, i.e. "We don't have men under arms, these guys don't work for us". Mix that a bit with "these are just random dudes who showed up with swords and shields and started doing stuff, we hang out with them because we're friends now, otherwise theres no professional relationship here".

I love the idea of the Ministorum using contractors. They're outsourcing their soldiers.

Plausible deniability or bust.

Jarms48 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

I think they take the plausible deniability used by by contractors in the real world, i.e. "We don't have men under arms, these guys don't work for us". Mix that a bit with "these are just random dudes who showed up with swords and shields and started doing stuff, we hang out with them because we're friends now, otherwise theres no professional relationship here".

I love the idea of the Ministorum using contractors. They're outsourcing their soldiers.

Black Ops Fanatics sounds pretty grimdark. I approve.
Proxy soldiers comes to mind too.
"They aren't part of the church, they just happen to receive donations from Clergy men and they just happen to use the money to buy guns. They are by no means an official army of the church"

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Basically, the decree passive is dumb writing, because nowadays GW is breaking their own rules, and making up new lore to justify breaking the contradiction.

I'd like to mention that tax evasion is a crime in my society, but the rich and powerful do it all the time and use ridiculous loophole and lack of prosecution strength to get away with it all the time, making it a rampant problem.

The Decree Passive is a law; a law the Ecclesiarchy probably doesn't like a lot and thus it seeks to skirt and undermine it or even break it openly whenever it feels it can get away with it. Considering the importance, the power and the wealth of the Ecclesiarchy, it's probably not that hard. The fact that the Ecclesiarchy always seeks to cheat the Decree Passive is actually good writing (for once). It would be very unrealistic for a heavily authoritarian, massively powerful, rich, influential and often corrupt institution to respect scrupulously in all instances the checks and balance placed upon its power. The idea that people and institutions, especially nominally power hungry or greedy ones, don't try to bend the law, ignore the law or downright break the law in fantasy or science fiction setting is really stupid, but a relatively too common mistake.

epronovost wrote:

Spoiler:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Basically, the decree passive is dumb writing, because nowadays GW is breaking their own rules, and making up new lore to justify breaking the contradiction.

I'd like to mention that tax evasion is a crime in my society, but the rich and powerful do it all the time and use ridiculous loophole and lack of prosecution strength to get away with it all the time, making it a rampant problem.

The Decree Passive is a law; a law the Ecclesiarchy probably doesn't like a lot and thus it seeks to skirt and undermine it or even break it openly whenever it feels it can get away with it. Considering the importance, the power and the wealth of the Ecclesiarchy, it's probably not that hard. The fact that the Ecclesiarchy always seeks to cheat the Decree Passive is actually good writing (for once). It would be very unrealistic for a heavily authoritarian, massively powerful, rich, influential and often corrupt institution to respect scrupulously in all instances the checks and balance placed upon its power. The idea that people and institutions, especially nominally power hungry or greedy ones, don't try to bend the law, ignore the law or downright break the law in fantasy or science fiction setting is really stupid, but a relatively too common mistake.

This. 1000% this. The Decree Passive isn't bad writing that GW is finding more and more ways to write around. It is limitation placed on the Ecclesiarchy that they are constantly trying to work around.

Sister of Battle aren't "men under arms" because they are women.
Battle Conclave? Those are just my personal bodyguards and sinners I'm reforming.
Frateris Militia? Concerned Citizens who taken up arms against the forces oppressing the Imperium.
Religious Crusade? I'm not in charge of the military. I'm just encouraging them to go in a certain direction, it's the Generals and Admirals that give the orders.

And if a prelate should stray too far? Say hello to the Ordo Hereticus and a summary execution.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I always liked it, it's a neat bit of fluff, it feels real and justifies an all-woman army.

It is very cool, but it's also not mentioned in the current Codex anywhere. No more explanation of why the church uses warrior nuns. And they somehow managed to invert Vandire's job roles in what was either a ridiculous mistake or a pointless retcon. Confessor Dolan has been written out of history, etc...

If it's not in a current GW rulebook, is it current canon?

Ah, by this definition then women can be marines. Huzzah!

Like all things in the imperium, laws only matter when someone powerful enough exists to challenge you with them.
Or there is a reason to uphold the law for enough political power to agree to hold them against you.

The Ecclesiarchy is too powerful to directly challenge on anything unless you are insane. And the faith is shared by many in the highest positions.
Short of gulliman himself willing to push the imperium to civil war, they can do what they want.
They follow the law as much as they would need and in ways to get away with it.

Apple fox wrote:
Like all things in the imperium, laws only matter when someone powerful enough exists to challenge you with them.
Or there is a reason to uphold the law for enough political power to agree to hold them against you.

The Ecclesiarchy is too powerful to directly challenge on anything unless you are insane. And the faith is shared by many in the highest positions.
Short of gulliman himself willing to push the imperium to civil war, they can do what they want.
They follow the law as much as they would need and in ways to get away with it.

The Ecclesiarchy is not in the position to do "whatever it wants" at all. The Ordo Hereticus was explicitedly created to keep an eye on them and hold their leash lest another Vandire shows up. The Church is extremely powerful - but then so are other players within the Imperium. Both the Space Marines (minus the Black Templars) and the Mechanicus (which is really more of an autonomous state allied with the Imperium rather than an integral part of the Imperium proper) are openly committing heresy, by the Ecclesiarchy's standards, yet they are both too important and too powerful to be challenged on those grounds.

The Beast Arises actually deals with political fallout for the various organisations and offices of the Imperium really well. The War sees almost every single office of the High Lords shamed and broken with only the Assasinorum remaining unmolested. 11 out of 12 of the most powerful organisations in the Imperium had their representatives murdered and many lost swathes of power or influence.
The offices allowed onto the "High Twelve" as the High Lords are known to change all the time depending on who takes over and what influence those offices have.

 Esmer wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Like all things in the imperium, laws only matter when someone powerful enough exists to challenge you with them.
Or there is a reason to uphold the law for enough political power to agree to hold them against you.

The Ecclesiarchy is too powerful to directly challenge on anything unless you are insane. And the faith is shared by many in the highest positions.
Short of gulliman himself willing to push the imperium to civil war, they can do what they want.
They follow the law as much as they would need and in ways to get away with it.

The Ecclesiarchy is not in the position to do "whatever it wants" at all. The Ordo Hereticus was explicitedly created to keep an eye on them and hold their leash lest another Vandire shows up. The Church is extremely powerful - but then so are other players within the Imperium. Both the Space Marines (minus the Black Templars) and the Mechanicus (which is really more of an autonomous state allied with the Imperium rather than an integral part of the Imperium proper) are openly committing heresy, by the Ecclesiarchy's standards, yet they are both too important and too powerful to be challenged on those grounds.

Yes, that’s my point. All the major factions can break the rules as long as no one is willing to break the imperium.

There’s also the chunky matter of “yeah but can you prove it?”

Crusaders as covered aren’t a formal military. They’re particularly pious individuals who take up arms to defend their church.

For that to be breaking the Decree Passive? You’d probably need to start by proving the Church actively sponsors and equips them. Merely travelling with a Deacon or what have you isn’t enough. That they’re suspiciously well armed for lay persons isn’t enough. And yet they’re few enough in number you’ll never be able to prove they received any help from the Church, because it’s spending and requisition is otherwise incomprehensibly vast.

Much the same as Frataris Militia. They’re….just people. Poorly equipped people. They’re not a formal military by any stretch of the imagination. Whilst some parts of the populace run and hide, they pick up their stub gun and stand alongside the faithful.

And don’t forget. The Imperium is astoundingly corrupt. The more power you or your parent organisation within the Imperium is, the more you can get away with. I mean….remember that time Fenris opened fire on an Inquisitorial fleet, and basically nothing at all came of it? That’s corruption and abuse of power right there. But because they’re First Founding and someone you definitely want on your side of the line, nothing happened to them.

The Church/cult is the single most powerful orginization in the imperium. As forces, they boast:

The church/Eccliesiarchy
Sisters of Battle
The Inquisition
The Death Watch
The Black Templars
Assorted Fratern Militias that range from platoons to entire planet invasion forces.

The Ecclesiarchy only commands the Sisters and sometimes Fraetris Militia.
The Deathwatch are independent because they're Space Marines but can fall under the command of the Ordo Xenos.
The Templars are again independent because they're Space Marines. Their religious zealotry doesn't place them under the command of any mortal even Ecclesiarchy figures.
The Inquisition is independent from literally every single other Imperial organisation. The Ecclesiarchy has to worry about the Ordo Hereticus looking into their activities.

GW's fictional setting is as weak to RAW vs RAI as their game.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
"They aren't part of the church, they just happen to receive donations from Clergy men and they just happen to use the money to buy guns. They are by no means an official army of the church"

This is my take. Either the Crusaders are women (and so not bound), or they are Little Green Men and who can really say who they are managed by?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The Church/cult is the single most powerful orginization in the imperium. As forces, they boast:

The Inquisition
The Death Watch

Umm... what?

The Inquisition isn't part of the Adeptus Ministorum. Neither are the Deathwatch.