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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Hive Mind thinking or debating itself: Two hive fleets fighting to the death.
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:14:02


 
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

roboemperor wrote:
Ok I've delved into this matter a lot and there are currently only two models of the Hive Mind that works.

1. Hive Mind is just an Ogliarchy of the Synapse creatures. And biggest proof of this is the brood mind. The Brood Mind is not alive or a separate entity, it's literally just the Patriarch and the Hive Mind is considered a larger version of the Brood Mind.

2. The Hive Mind is a separate singular entity. In other words, the Tyranids create a purely psychic leader. So the best analogy would be, a human creating a robot to lead them because a robot would be a better leader than a human. So the hive mind is NOT an ogliarchy of synpase creatures, but an artificia psychic construct built to lead the Tyranids by the Tyranids.

So brood mind says it's 1.
Gladius and the Baal novels say it's 2.

I think Gladius is more authoritative than the other sources because
a., it was released after being approved by GW
b. The Hive Mind's reaction towards the other factions is NOT in the point of view of the Imperium. An omniscient narrator described the Hive Mind's actions like it flexing its psychic muscles in preparation for the feast on the Imperial Guard. And it was referred to as "it" and singular, not plural. So it's genderless and not a legion.

Which do you guys think is it in your opinion? Separate artificial entity built to lead Tyranids or Olgiarchy of Synapse creatures?

I'm honestly unsure at this time. Both the Brood Mind and Gladius are very authoritative sources imo.


This is a textbook ecsample of a false dicotamy.

   
Made in us
Norn Queen






Yup. Option 3,

It's not simply synapse creatures. And Synapse creatures are created and killed all the time with no actual impact on the hive mind. All tyranids, period, contribute to the collective consciousness that is the hive mind. Synapse creatures further a direct concious control over those components, but not being synapse doesn't make the components any less a part of it.

The cells in your body act without you consciously thinking about them. And yet you collect sensory data from them. You don't need to think about your nerves or your skin. But get cut, touch a surface, be burned, and your mind collects the data.

Every tyranid is a cell in the collective whole.

Like... heads up. Your mater isn't actually touching. Most physical space is empty space between atoms.

The hive mind is the macro organism comprised of every tyranid organism. And it's achieved a level of mind over mater control of it's body to such an extent that it can drive it's own evolution and adaptation on a cellular level.

The hive mind isn't a separate entity. And it's not committee of synapse creatures. It's the tyranid race.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/23 19:39:51



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Wicked Canoptek Wraith




deleted

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/29 14:13:54


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

It's possible for there to be a single Hive Mind, just that its possible for it to lose and gain parts of itself over time without apparent detriment.


Perhaps the closest thing we might consider is how we can remember and forget things over time. Memories which are still physically there within our minds, but which are forgotten and then remembered again. To us that might be similar to how the Tyranid Hive Mind can "lose" parts of itself and yet when those parts return, accept them into itself again without causing problems.


In that sense it is quite similar to Chaos Demons in how they are most often facets of their greater "God" at least for demons sourced from the Four Chaos Gods.


There's also clear guiding principles of Tyranid behaviour which appear to be engrained into their very core, which likely helps facilitate separated segments from working along pathways that lead to advantage for the Hive Mind in the long run. So that even separate, the "hive" is able to continue to work toward the greater goals of the Hive Mind before its separated parts reunite together.


Separate hive ships engaging in warfare is still a tricky area and in a sense we have to accept that part of this is simply in-world justification for how we play the game in reality; however in-world I think we only ever have had theories for this and the leading ones are typically things along the lines of major weapons tests. Sparked by the fact that whilst Tyranids can hyper-evolve; their evolution is nearly always sparked by challenge. Ergo that whilst A Norn Queen (or by extension the Hive Mind) can "design" a tyranid; it can't create new genes unless it meets a specific challenge that sparks a need for mass production of Tyranids. Ergo that the Hive can't just sit there spawning gaunts until it lands on a good one; it has to "fight" or deal with some threat or challenge to engage that function. So it in a sense tricks itself with civil combat.

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in us
Dark Angels Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




roboemperor wrote:


Nope.

Codices, Novels, and Gladius all unanimously that there are multiple Hive Minds all merging and splitting as needed.
Hive Fleets have separate memories of each other and have to devour fallen fleets to get info on what they were fighting.
Hive minds of two separate hive fleets merging together to form a larger hive mind has been personally witnessed
Tyranids cut off from the hive mind become feral and kill each other
The synapse creatures create a new hive mind when trapped in a planet wide warpstorm that prevents all communication from the planet to the outside even without norn queens or hive tyrants present. Current known lowest rank synapse creature to establish a new hive mind is the Malanthrope.
We got a book excerpt that directly says the hive mind is a separate entity fo the tyranids and is akin to a chaos god.

Reviewing this again I think I answered the quesiton all by myself. Hive mind is in fact a new entity spawned from synapse creatures. Its strength is directly proportional to how many synapse creatures it is connected with. And the brood mind has only one synapse creature part of it so that explains why the patriarch and the brood mind look like they are one and the same.

-----

Separate note, you trying to pretend that the BL novels don't exist doesn't really do anything. They exist, they're canon, they're 1st party official, and Baal was even made into a series of tabletop campaigns. So Tyranids have souls, they're not usable to Chaos and Chaos was the unreliable narrator when it said Tyranids don't have souls. And Hive Mind is a pure warp entity.


So, it is possible both hold, that there is more than one hive mind and also only one hive mind:
ex) you have a left hemisphere, a right hemisphere, and a spinal column, all of which may operate quasi independently.
In a 40k context, the emperor has been shown to have multiple simultaneous though processes, each of which may be considered "the emperor", so in a sense there may be multiple entities that are the emperor while also only having one emperor.

also of note, as you stated, the hive mind is a warp entity, meaning that laws of logic don't apply fully, so it is possible for it to be one and many. Similar to how slaanesh didn't exist until the fall of the elder, but after the fall of the eldar he/she/it always existed
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



Some where in the Canadian deathlands

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The entire Tyranid Species is the Hive Mind.

It helps to think of it as a single entity made up of billions of individuals. The whole of the thing is the Hive Mind. The individual gribblies are akin to our cells.

Certain cells from very rough analogies of our organs. But the Norn Queens themselves are no more the entirety and source of the Hive Mind than our brain are the totality of us humans.

And like our brains, the Hive Mind receives information from every being under its influence, from the simplest microbial bio form to the largest of Hive Ships. Everything is input. Everything is yet another sense.

Often this incoming data is processed passively - but the Hive Mind can focus its attention through pretty much any of its constituent bio forms as needs be,


Well said and after thinking about it what you have posted does seem to a reasonable look on the hive mind and all of it *parts.*

" For every Guardsmen lost a trillion more will take his place and deliver the Emperor's wrath upon the scum of the galaxy, be it heretic, xenos or the dirty traitors to humanity. " 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




No one knows for sure but I dont think the hive mind is a single overlord mind and fractured out to the norn queens. There are instances where they've fought one another so I'm guessing that isn't the case.

I think they just built up to Norn-Queen variants to where a giant mind controls it's hive. Maybe they were conjoined at one point but after spreading out far enough that link severed and doesn't seem like its coming back.

That said, the tower of Timant or whatever it's called could be something that could be considered the massive hive mind once completed. Maybe they travel out and latch to a galaxy, each fleet doing their thing until the beacon is fully constructed and the norn queen's mind all link up into a giant mind.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Internal conflicts between the Tyranids are believed to be tests of new biomorphs or the consumption of damaged or wayward splinter fleets.
   
Made in nl
Elite Tyranid Warrior




I think the bit about tyranids fighting each other was a poorly thought through fluff addition introduced solely to give two tyranid players a reason to have their armies fight. It never really made sense to me given the faction's identity.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

shortymcnostrill wrote:
I think the bit about tyranids fighting each other was a poorly thought through fluff addition introduced solely to give two tyranid players a reason to have their armies fight. It never really made sense to me given the faction's identity.



I think everyone can see it as such, however it also does fit them in terms of creating a sense of mystery about the Tyranids. Part of the interest in the army and the lore are things like working out why Tyranids do fight each other and such. Ergo strange behaviours that defy simplistic classification. They hint that there's things going on that amount to more than the Tyranids just being a very hungry predatory species. Some higher level, not purely instinctive elements to them.

Arguments between facets of the Hive Mind;
Bio-weapons tests;
A display of higher level Tyranids having the capacity for different attitudes and thoughts and even waring with each other whilst never being able to disobey the Hive Mind itself;
An element of their genetic make-up that means they can't just create new DNA on a whim and have to create struggle/challenging situations in order to force evolve themselves to new strains.*
A momentary loss of control of a part of itself.


*eg Tyranids can only make more of themselves in reaction to an external stimulus. So to evolve where there is no external stimulation it "tricks" itself by fighting itself and thus providing its own stimulation.

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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



Some where in the Canadian deathlands

 Overread wrote:



*eg Tyranids can only make more of themselves in reaction to an external stimulus. So to evolve where there is no external stimulation it "tricks" itself by fighting itself and thus providing its own stimulation.


So with what you said would that mean the Nids are cannibalizing themselves to make themselves stronger by consuming the *weak?*

" For every Guardsmen lost a trillion more will take his place and deliver the Emperor's wrath upon the scum of the galaxy, be it heretic, xenos or the dirty traitors to humanity. " 
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





It is, and always has been in the names - Hive Mind is a phenomenon known from IRL biology, as are synaptic networks. So Iracundus and Arson Fire are closest to the proper understanding of what Hive Mind is.

But to add on what they wrote, the concept of Norn Queens communicating with each other and fleet splinters existing should be easier to understand if you realise, that our brains are fractured as well and various neuronal clusters constantly compete to grow into a conscious thought and that there is a hierarchy within the construction of both our central and peripheral nervous systems. As to splintering, the same happens to a human after severing Corpus Callosum, when two brain hemispheres can no longer communicate directly and instead rely on other internal neuronal or even external cognitive pathways to continue to act as a singular human being. Reverting to instinctive behaviour is also explainable within the brain analogy, as we also revert to lower forms of function when higher levels of our brains stop functioning, like e.g. during or after a seizure.

Everything that is written in the lore is in line with the concept of the singular Hive Mind, exactly as the same concept exists in the real life. But it takes a bit of perspective shift to understand "the brain outside the body" concept. I strongly recommend reading "The Empire of the Ants" by Bernard Werber to any Tyranids fan.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Kargan3033 wrote:
 Overread wrote:



*eg Tyranids can only make more of themselves in reaction to an external stimulus. So to evolve where there is no external stimulation it "tricks" itself by fighting itself and thus providing its own stimulation.


So with what you said would that mean the Nids are cannibalizing themselves to make themselves stronger by consuming the *weak?*



Not quite.
It's more that whilst Tyranids reproduce on demand from pre-designed genetic sequences, they appear to retain an element of random mutation within their reproductive cycle. As such whilst each Tyranid might be almost the same as the next, there are slight variations that happen. Their ability to produce en-mass and to select those random creations and breed true to those designs again and again is part of how they overcome problems. They encounter something they can't deal with so they mass-reproduce until both design and random chance produce strains better and better equipped to deal with the challenge.

The "Weapons Test" angle is less our simplistic idea of survival of the fittest, and more a case of testing these small and big changes in design between different Hive Fleets; whilst also promoting more random chances of evolution taking place.

The Fleet that "loses" wasn't necessarily comprised of weaker DNA strains, it was just out-competed in that moment. Many of its strains of DNA are simply taken on by the winning fleet and retained as many might well be very beneficial against other forces.


Heck perhaps that's part of how they "swap" genetic codes. Indeed the whole concept of how DNA codes and sequences are treated within the Swarm is a bit of a mystery. Especially as its clear that different fleets end up with unique strains of their own that are not shared with the mass swarm. And yet at the same time we know that they are all part of one greater whole.




It honestly does indeed act a little like our own bodies and the comparison is a good one. We, the mind behind our bodies, have a single will and drive to exist that defines what the whole body does; but we are comprised of loads of interacting parts that all do their own thing well outside of our control. Parts that repair, replace, build, grow - these all happen but much of it we can only influence with outside help (eg medication); we can't directly say "hey body we grew an arm once, then we lost an arm, lets regrow a new one".

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Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman



Some where in the Canadian deathlands

 Overread wrote:
Kargan3033 wrote:
 Overread wrote:



*eg Tyranids can only make more of themselves in reaction to an external stimulus. So to evolve where there is no external stimulation it "tricks" itself by fighting itself and thus providing its own stimulation.


So with what you said would that mean the Nids are cannibalizing themselves to make themselves stronger by consuming the *weak?*



Not quite.
It's more that whilst Tyranids reproduce on demand from pre-designed genetic sequences, they appear to retain an element of random mutation within their reproductive cycle. As such whilst each Tyranid might be almost the same as the next, there are slight variations that happen. Their ability to produce en-mass and to select those random creations and breed true to those designs again and again is part of how they overcome problems. They encounter something they can't deal with so they mass-reproduce until both design and random chance produce strains better and better equipped to deal with the challenge.

The "Weapons Test" angle is less our simplistic idea of survival of the fittest, and more a case of testing these small and big changes in design between different Hive Fleets; whilst also promoting more random chances of evolution taking place.

The Fleet that "loses" wasn't necessarily comprised of weaker DNA strains, it was just out-competed in that moment. Many of its strains of DNA are simply taken on by the winning fleet and retained as many might well be very beneficial against other forces.


Heck perhaps that's part of how they "swap" genetic codes. Indeed the whole concept of how DNA codes and sequences are treated within the Swarm is a bit of a mystery. Especially as its clear that different fleets end up with unique strains of their own that are not shared with the mass swarm. And yet at the same time we know that they are all part of one greater whole.




It honestly does indeed act a little like our own bodies and the comparison is a good one. We, the mind behind our bodies, have a single will and drive to exist that defines what the whole body does; but we are comprised of loads of interacting parts that all do their own thing well outside of our control. Parts that repair, replace, build, grow - these all happen but much of it we can only influence with outside help (eg medication); we can't directly say "hey body we grew an arm once, then we lost an arm, lets regrow a new one".


Now that is a very interesting take on the Nids and what you say about competing Nid swarms does seem to make some sense, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I have to wonder if you are the Steve Irwin of 40k?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/23 03:29:07


" For every Guardsmen lost a trillion more will take his place and deliver the Emperor's wrath upon the scum of the galaxy, be it heretic, xenos or the dirty traitors to humanity. " 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I think the key with Tyranid lore is that what we get is often told from a viewpoint that's unreliable. Eg the 3rd ed codex is almost all Imperial reports and theories. So there's always a lot of flexibility within the lore as to what we interpret certain behaviours as meaning.

Plus every so often GW will throw something new into the mix; eg this huge planet they are building.

So bits of the lore can be totally wrong because the Imperial Scientist hasn't got a clue; other bits are where the lore describes common behaviour, but doesn't really give us an idea if that behaviour is a fixed property that won't change or if its a choice within the Swarm. Esp since most codex tend to focus on one leading Hive Fleet each edition

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Focused Fire Warrior




Les Etats Unis

 Gert wrote:
Internal conflicts between the Tyranids are believed to be tests of new biomorphs or the consumption of damaged or wayward splinter fleets.


Could you, like, provide quotes for this sort of thing?

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Flipsiders wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Internal conflicts between the Tyranids are believed to be tests of new biomorphs or the consumption of damaged or wayward splinter fleets.


Could you, like, provide quotes for this sort of thing?


It's pretty much all in the Codex over the years. However sometimes its little more than a sentence or line here and there.

Eg the Catatchan Devil has one reference on page 37 of the 3rd ed book in a chart. Yet even that chart is "wrong" as it places Rippers as an off-shoot of the Gaunts whereas we generally know that gaunts are a potential off-shoot of Ripper

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