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 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Not when his powers first happen in-universe. The first 40k novel/book/codex/whatever that shows he definitely has some sort of powers like the Imperium believes he does.

Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned original book. That was when the first bit about the Emperor as shaman-gestalt, the Sensei, and Star Child first appeared as well as the iconic artwork of the Emperor vs. Horus. Living tens of thousands of years certainly counts as god-like.

While I've only read summaries and such of the information from back then, weren't things like the Shaman-gestalt and Star Child presented as theories or in relation to the Imperium's beliefs? Still seems like the same 'problem' of it being framed as from within a biased perspective (rather than being told to us as fact, as it were) if that's the case with those.

The Inquisitor example seems more fitting, though.

No they were not told from an in-universe perspective, but from an omniscient narrator POV. I know because I have the books sitting in front of me.

 Hellebore wrote:
A psychic gestalt is not an unusual thing in 40k, and doesn't generally get bestowed godhood.

The Eldar Infinity circuits are a merging of the dead Eldar souls. Each exarch and especially the Phoenix Lord - an unknown number of souls have been combined into each.

Even the astronomicon is a Gestalt chorus.

The entire Ork species generates a Gestalt psychic fied.



My point being that the Emperor is both a psychic gestalt of ancient hominid shamans, and also that this isn't a magic Bullet to godhood in 40k.

So it comes down to whether you subscribe to Rick Priestley's original vision of myths and half truths taken as a literal gospel, or you follow the more modern '2nd generation fanboi writing flanderisation and oneupmanship'.

You can guess which one I prefer.

So many times people forget when something isn't meant to be objectively true and it gets canonised, which imo reduces the impact of story.

Only if you ignore the literal lore that 40k uses to describe godhood. A God is a being that:

1. Manifests or has a warp presence, or in some way affect/effects it.

2. Has the ability to do things that suspend the natural order.

Also, according to the Eldar, scale is a component, but only in faith. The Faith in the Emperor being a god, in their words, literally makes him a god. The same is used with Gman. This is obviously shown in many ways. Ork faith in Gork and Mork allow for Warp craft. Blood worship and slaughter worship allow Khorne to manifest warpcraft. The Sisters of battle have their "Miracles". Eldar have their gods. Nids/GSC are slightly less well documented, but their sheer numbers, each being somewhat warp touched, make for one GIANT Faith entity, being the hivemind. The Necrons don't have faith, but their stuff is entirely different anyway.

Not to derail, but I have never read anything whatsoever supporting nids "having faith" (source: every nid codex gw published). I think I would have noticed something like that, as it breaks the entire faction's concept and that would have driven me away rather quickly :p Nids fall under the same statement as necrons here, they're far too alien for such stuff.

The hive mind is shown as a gestalt mind however, maybe that's what you're referring to?

I sort of thought that the emperor becoming more like a God in the 40K sense was a gradual change in the setting, as the golden throne fails his soul moves further into the warp and he is able to act more good like e.g manifest miracles for SOB

Not implicit but implied through changes in the setting

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, no later than the humbling of the Word Bearers on Monarchia.

Forcing an entire Legion, and their Primarch, to kneel is definitely a god-like display of power.

Maybe I've worded something wrong, what I'm asking is what's the first novel or codex or something like that where he definitely has power and it's not a vague thing anymore.

Well, aside from him being a perpetual and the unknown length of time he has been alive, I don't think there is any incidents of him displaying God like power as he was known to be a psyker and people would put his power down to that. Before the Golden Thrown he was never praised for his 'powers' but for his vision and wisdom and for the legend of the emperor. Remember, most people had never seen him. The "God Emperor" is born from the Lectitio Divinitatus which was written by Lorgar and he didnt go on about god like powers (as far as i recall).

The first time i'm aware of that 'god-like' powers were used were during the heresy when Euphrati Keeler faced down a demon - but there is no evidence that this was the Emperor and thats the point about everything surrounding the God Emperor, there is no proof, only faith.

This is also an important theme in the Dark Imperium series that Rowboat Goolieman has to deal with. What makes people believe the Emperor is a God? He doesnt regard the emperors power to be what makes him a god, but he looks at the impact his life has had on mankind. Of course, other people see unexplainable things happen and assign that to God Powers, and Preachers tell people what to think and burn people alive if they disagree, so there is that.

Stephen1974 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, no later than the humbling of the Word Bearers on Monarchia.

Forcing an entire Legion, and their Primarch, to kneel is definitely a god-like display of power.

Maybe I've worded something wrong, what I'm asking is what's the first novel or codex or something like that where he definitely has power and it's not a vague thing anymore.

Well, aside from him being a perpetual and the unknown length of time he has been alive, I don't think there is any incidents of him displaying God like power as he was known to be a psyker and people would put his power down to that. Before the Golden Thrown he was never praised for his 'powers' but for his vision and wisdom and for the legend of the emperor. Remember, most people had never seen him. The "God Emperor" is born from the Lectitio Divinitatus which was written by Lorgar and he didnt go on about god like powers (as far as i recall).

The first time i'm aware of that 'god-like' powers were used were during the heresy when Euphrati Keeler faced down a demon - but there is no evidence that this was the Emperor and thats the point about everything surrounding the God Emperor, there is no proof, only faith.

This is also an important theme in the Dark Imperium series that Rowboat Goolieman has to deal with. What makes people believe the Emperor is a God? He doesnt regard the emperors power to be what makes him a god, but he looks at the impact his life has had on mankind. Of course, other people see unexplainable things happen and assign that to God Powers, and Preachers tell people what to think and burn people alive if they disagree, so there is that.

I think what OP meant was: when was the first time in publication that the Emperor showed godly powers. Not in universe, but when in real life did someone write the Emperor as an actual godlike being, instead of older fluff where it wasn't clear if he was even alive at all.

I don't remember the Star Child bit being an in-universe theory but I could be wrong. As I recall there were also inquisitors trying to track down the Sensei's although I believe all of the above has been retcon'd out of existence and now we get the perpetual storyline instead.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I don't remember the Star Child bit being an in-universe theory but I could be wrong. As I recall there were also inquisitors trying to track down the Sensei's although I believe all of the above has been retcon'd out of existence and now we get the perpetual storyline instead.

The Star Child was given as an out of universe statement of facts by the narrator in Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. Nothing has directly retconned the Star Child actually. Lack of mention is not retconning.

Iracundus wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I don't remember the Star Child bit being an in-universe theory but I could be wrong. As I recall there were also inquisitors trying to track down the Sensei's although I believe all of the above has been retcon'd out of existence and now we get the perpetual storyline instead.

The Star Child was given as an out of universe statement of facts by the narrator in Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. Nothing has directly retconned the Star Child actually. Lack of mention is not retconning.

It was kinda retconned in the back of the 3e core book, where an Inquisitor detailed a cult that believed in the Star Child and Sensei that was actually a Tzeentchian front.

Hecaton wrote:
It was kinda retconned in the back of the 3e core book, where an Inquisitor detailed a cult that believed in the Star Child and Sensei that was actually that the Inquisitor believed to be a Tzeentchian front.

FTFY.

 Duskweaver wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
It was kinda retconned in the back of the 3e core book, where an Inquisitor detailed a cult that believed in the Star Child and Sensei that was actually that the Inquisitor believed to be a Tzeentchian front.

FTFY.

Or told everyone that it was.

That’s what I love about the star child sensei fluff. They are trying to kill the emperor to save humanity and birth the star child but the mechanisms of the imperium are hell bent on stopping them and thus damning humanity. Classic 40K irony.

The whole idea that he was a God was always irony as well, the idea of worshipping a corpse that did nothing but was projected but a state or church as being the saviour was 40K satire. But the nuance is being stripped away and now, although nothing is stated directly or overtly the narrative is much more about him being a god. It is a shame because it loses all of the irony and satire that made the setting so dark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
A psychic gestalt is not an unusual thing in 40k, and doesn't generally get bestowed godhood.

The Eldar Infinity circuits are a merging of the dead Eldar souls. Each exarch and especially the Phoenix Lord - an unknown number of souls have been combined into each.

Even the astronomicon is a Gestalt chorus.

The entire Ork species generates a Gestalt psychic fied.



My point being that the Emperor is both a psychic gestalt of ancient hominid shamans, and also that this isn't a magic Bullet to godhood in 40k.

So it comes down to whether you subscribe to Rick Priestley's original vision of myths and half truths taken as a literal gospel, or you follow the more modern '2nd generation fanboi writing flanderisation and oneupmanship'.

You can guess which one I prefer.

So many times people forget when something isn't meant to be objectively true and it gets canonised, which imo reduces the impact of story.

Only if you ignore the literal lore that 40k uses to describe godhood. A God is a being that:

1. Manifests or has a warp presence, or in some way affect/effects it.

2. Has the ability to do things that suspend the natural order.

Also, according to the Eldar, scale is a component, but only in faith. The Faith in the Emperor being a god, in their words, literally makes him a god. The same is used with Gman. This is obviously shown in many ways. Ork faith in Gork and Mork allow for Warp craft. Blood worship and slaughter worship allow Khorne to manifest warpcraft. The Sisters of battle have their "Miracles". Eldar have their gods. Nids/GSC are slightly less well documented, but their sheer numbers, each being somewhat warp touched, make for one GIANT Faith entity, being the hivemind. The Necrons don't have faith, but their stuff is entirely different anyway.

You got a reference for that in universe definition, I have never seen the term “god” defined in the setting.

The warp is defined by emotions and beliefs, psykers draw their power from the warp. Point being if enough people believe the Emperor is a God, that can very much make it true to some extent. Then it becomes self-reinforcing. SoB manifest divine abilities, and people further believe that the Emperor is a god with the ability to grant blessings to his followers. That belief becomes reality in the warp, as a psyker the Emperor draws from that and creates additional manifestations of power, and so on. It isn't so much that the writers decided Emps would be a god but rather that his godhood is a natural progression within the fluff as established. It would make less sense if it didn't happen. And even then the effects are largely subtle or very rare.

Until the great rift happens, which redefines the level of psychic power in the galaxy. A rising tide lifts all boats, be they daemonic or otherwise.

Belief in a concept of the emperor as a god in no way is directly related to 'powering up' the emperor himself.

The ecclesiastical image of the emperor is very different from who he actually was.

This could create a god like warp entity called the emperor that's entirely distinct from the real emperor.

 Hellebore wrote:
Belief in a concept of the emperor as a god in no way is directly related to 'powering up' the emperor himself.

The ecclesiastical image of the emperor is very different from who he actually was.

This could create a god like warp entity called the emperor that's entirely distinct from the real emperor.

Possibly or as the Farseer in Godblight speculated, the worship has empowered but also modified and changed the Emperor (willingly or not) to align with what his worshippers expect.

My theory is as follows.

We know from Fury of Magnus that certain planets, which as of this writing seem to be only human-inhabited, have genius loci. Fenris is the most famous of these, due to it providing (and since it is confirmed to exist in lore, we can assume they're telling the truth) power and protection for the Rune Priests. Now, there seems to be a throughline in all these world spirits. They're spirits of planets where life is desperate, brutal, and short. Terra during the Age of Strife and the Age of the Imperium, Fenris, and Nocturne.

My theory is that this is a human-exclusive thing. Humans, by nature of being more psychically attuned, create these world spirits through the emotions associated with desperation and murder. The latter act seems to be particularly potent, warp-wise. There's a segment in Know No Fear where Aeonid Thiel notes more "primitive" weapons such as blades to be more effective against daemons, and Drachnyen is a immensely powerful daemon born from the first murder.

The Imperium is like Fenris or Terra or Nocturne a millionfold. Life for trillions of humans is absolutely miserable in the Imperium, appallingly so. The emotions brought forth are creating a new god, one in the image of the Anathema. We already see this in the Astronomican's effects on the Eye of Terror, as described in Black Legion. Angelic creatures, a wall of "fire", etc.

And the locus of all this pain and suffering is the Emperor.