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EightFoldPath wrote: There is a new unit in the Black Templars supplement, they have 2W each, 9 in power armour, 11 in scout armour, they can take 20 in a unit, they can be buffed with a 5++, can't be wounded on 1s and 2s, a 5+++, immune to all psychic and to top it off they can if they want spend CP to can't be wounded on 3s too. This unit is also not wrecking the gaming tables.
Quite a few omissions in this statement.
In any case I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm saying it isn't a simple 'here's an extra wound and you're good'.
JNAProductions wrote: A 10-Man Intercessor squad, with the right buffs, can one-round a Questoris Knight.
And no, not Assault Intercessors. The shooty ones can do it.
Yes and that's a whole lotta buffs and considerations in a math-hammer vacuum. Iron Warriors grant full reroll wounds for 1 CP. VotLW is still 1 CP. The prayer is +1 to wound. Prescience and a lord for essentially auto-hits and the exploding 5s.
So, a squad of 20 Noise Marines, with full rerolls to wound, gets...
60 shots
2,100/36 or 175/3 hits at S4 AP0 D1, with +1 to-wound and rerolls to wound. Ignoring cover too. Close enough to 60 for Government work, so call it 60 hits.
Against GEQ, you'd deal just shy of 39 wounds-that's pretty shredding!
Against MEQ, you'd deal just shy of 18 wounds-or, you'd body a full squad, once morale is accounted for, most likely.
Against TEQ, you'd deal just shy of 9 wounds-that's three Terminators.
Against Gravis, you'd deal 15 wounds on the nugget (well, assuming 60 hits)-that's close to a full squad.
Against Knights or other T8 3+ targets, you'd deal just over 11 wounds-not enough to bracket a Knight even.
So, for the cost of 490 points (20 Noise Marines, naked Lord, naked Sorcerer) and two CP, you can do what's listed above.
If you fail Prescience, you're looking at losing 20% of the damage.
You're also Iron Warriors, who are anti-synergistic with Noise Marines owing to granting them two instances of Ignoring Cover.
Admittedly, you can double tap for 2 more CP, so for a full third of your CP, you can kill a whole two max squads of Marines! Or one squad of Terminators!
Now, for 460 points, you can get a naked Captain, naked Master of Sanctity, nkaed Lieutenant, and 10 AutoBolt Intercessors. Put them in Tactical T1 with a strat (2 CP, if I recall correctly), give them +1 to-hit, and +1 to-wound the nearest target (from the Chaplain) as well as RR1s to-hit and wound. Shoot again for 2 CP, by the way.
Without +1 to-wound, you deal the following, assuming 30 hits:
Insectum7 wrote: See, to me, the current crime is in the failure to make appropriate adjustments around very foundational aspects of unit identity . . . but the reason is because of some weird edge case that happens because of the modern Strat/Aura/buff paradigm?
To be fair I had forgotten about Crusaders completely so it isn't without possibility. I don't know how codex compliant DG & TS were though.
JNAProductions wrote: A 10-Man Intercessor squad, with the right buffs, can one-round a Questoris Knight.
And no, not Assault Intercessors. The shooty ones can do it.
Yes and that's a whole lotta buffs and considerations in a math-hammer vacuum. Iron Warriors grant full reroll wounds for 1 CP. VotLW is still 1 CP. The prayer is +1 to wound. Prescience and a lord for essentially auto-hits and the exploding 5s.
So, a squad of 20 Noise Marines, with full rerolls to wound, gets...
60 shots
2,100/36 or 175/3 hits at S4 AP0 D1, with +1 to-wound and rerolls to wound. Ignoring cover too. Close enough to 60 for Government work, so call it 60 hits.
Against GEQ, you'd deal just shy of 39 wounds-that's pretty shredding!
Against MEQ, you'd deal just shy of 18 wounds-or, you'd body a full squad, once morale is accounted for, most likely.
Against TEQ, you'd deal just shy of 9 wounds-that's three Terminators.
Against Gravis, you'd deal 15 wounds on the nugget (well, assuming 60 hits)-that's close to a full squad.
Against Knights or other T8 3+ targets, you'd deal just over 11 wounds-not enough to bracket a Knight even.
So, for the cost of 490 points (20 Noise Marines, naked Lord, naked Sorcerer) and two CP, you can do what's listed above.
If you fail Prescience, you're looking at losing 20% of the damage.
You're also Iron Warriors, who are anti-synergistic with Noise Marines owing to granting them two instances of Ignoring Cover.
Admittedly, you can double tap for 2 more CP, so for a full third of your CP, you can kill a whole two max squads of Marines! Or one squad of Terminators!
Now, for 460 points, you can get a naked Captain, naked Master of Sanctity, nkaed Lieutenant, and 10 AutoBolt Intercessors. Put them in Tactical T1 with a strat (2 CP, if I recall correctly), give them +1 to-hit, and +1 to-wound the nearest target (from the Chaplain) as well as RR1s to-hit and wound. Shoot again for 2 CP, by the way.
Without +1 to-wound, you deal the following, assuming 30 hits:
That unit in melee with chainswords does a minimum of 20 to a knight and I'm not going to bother trying to optimize a hypothetical. CSM have viable ways to devastate knights with ranged weapons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/09 21:18:45
EightFoldPath wrote: There is a new unit in the Black Templars supplement, they have 2W each, 9 in power armour, 11 in scout armour, they can take 20 in a unit, they can be buffed with a 5++, can't be wounded on 1s and 2s, a 5+++, immune to all psychic and to top it off they can if they want spend CP to can't be wounded on 3s too. This unit is also not wrecking the gaming tables.
Quite a few omissions in this statement.
In any case I'm not saying they couldn't. I'm saying it isn't a simple 'here's an extra wound and you're good'.
I reread how you wrote it and I took something as innate rather than buffs so I retract my exaggerated language, but --
No cover (dense, heavy or light) from the passion and 5+++ is 6" aura rather than 18" psychic for CSM. There's no deepstrike, redeploy, or transport capable of carrying that unit through. The move bonus on Push is only 3".
How has the chaos space marine tactics page not devolved into what to counts as your chaos models as in the loyalist codex... like that’s what I am considering at this point.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
macluvin wrote: How has the chaos space marine tactics page not devolved into what to counts as your chaos models as in the loyalist codex... like that’s what I am considering at this point.
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
So what is a rules tweak?
And why did the LR save go to 2+ now as opposed to whenever the Guard codex arrives?
Or does it depend upon where on the statline the changing # is?
LR going from 3+ to 2+ will not affect the game balance by much. giving every CSM another wound will affect balance way more, like someone already mentioned with 40W blobs making single unit durability buffs twice as potent, for example.
If they'd just push that out, people would be complaining that it's unbalanced / untested / how could they do that without considering strat X, buff Y or charakter Zs ability. They very clearly said it's going to happen in the Codex, and that's how it's going to be. I totally understand the frustration that the codex isn't already out, by the way. But I don't get how people are disappointed every single time something is released that's NOT the CSM codex and miraculously does not contain the +1W.
They know it's coming. And we know it's coming. And it's coming "soon" isn't it, as in 1st quarter of '22? Clearly they also know what strat & buff changes are coming.
But.... If a 20 man 2w buffed squad would be a problem for the few months now-then? Well, there's a simple fix. CSM players just get told that the new unit size is now capped at 10. There, you're problem of the uber-buff CSM squad has been solved.
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!
Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.
And if GW was to just say "all CSM have 2 Wounds" it would be as simple as the Leman Russ rule. But let's not pretend they wouldn't need to revise the point level of every impacted unit, not to mention possibly other rules (Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, and Death Guard Possessed have all had their maximum unit size decreased). We are talking new datasheets, new Power Levels, and new Matched Play points levels. So you aren't asking for a simple errata (the LR is gaining the 2+ armor with no other adjustments include PL and Points), but a major codex revision. So CSM have to wait for their new codex. I'm sure it is frustrating, but it is reasonable given the scale of the changes required.
waefre_1 wrote:
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Would this "all the other marines" include those marines that got a, what was it, week-0 emergency FAQ to give them 2W?
The get-you-by Codex Supplements for Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templars were necessary since their codexes has been superseded by the new Codex Space Marines. They were no longer valid, but GW didn't want to leave the players unable to play the units from those books until their new supplements were released. That was not the case for Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or Chaos Space Marines. Doesn't feel great for CSM players, but it's simply not the same situation.
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!
Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.
And if GW was to just say "all CSM have 2 Wounds" it would be as simple as the Leman Russ rule. But let's not pretend they wouldn't need to revise the point level of every impacted unit, not to mention possibly other rules (Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, and Death Guard Possessed have all had their maximum unit size decreased). We are talking new datasheets, new Power Levels, and new Matched Play points levels. So you aren't asking for a simple errata (the LR is gaining the 2+ armor with no other adjustments include PL and Points), but a major codex revision. So CSM have to wait for their new codex. I'm sure it is frustrating, but it is reasonable given the scale of the changes required.
Did you not see the new point levels released for Admech and Drukari armies?
Glad to see they're willing to do across the board balance updates, shame they ignored 2W space marines, that's the biggest gut-punch lore wise for me.
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
So what is a rules tweak?
And why did the LR save go to 2+ now as opposed to whenever the Guard codex arrives?
Or does it depend upon where on the statline the changing # is?
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!
Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.
W2 CSM come with points and strat issues and it's nutty that people keep ignoring this.
At present you can take a 20 man block. 20 man MEQ seem to be going away. But if you grant 40 wounds to a unit, give them Slaanesh and AL and a 5++ FNP from the priest on top of their -1 to be hit. You can do Forward Operatives and then if you get first turn Warptime that massive brick into the opponent.
Eh...points and squad sizes are not in datasheet but in those pages at the back of book. That's already written. Just put it along like admech/drukhari. they are already done anyway so it's simple copy&paste.
At least that wasnt' doubling damage output for free like GW did before with errataes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
alextroy wrote: And if GW was to just say "all CSM have 2 Wounds" it would be as simple as the Leman Russ rule. But let's not pretend they wouldn't need to revise the point level of every impacted unit, not to mention possibly other rules (Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, and Death Guard Possessed have all had their maximum unit size decreased). We are talking new datasheets, new Power Levels, and new Matched Play points levels. So you aren't asking for a simple errata (the LR is gaining the 2+ armor with no other adjustments include PL and Points), but a major codex revision. So CSM have to wait for their new codex. I'm sure it is frustrating, but it is reasonable given the scale of the changes required.
So? You think PDF's are limited in pages they can add? GW's server space soooooooooo full they can't add page or two?
They already HAVE the updated page sheet done. Just put it in. It can't put CSM into worse position they are already.
Did you even bother to read the update they put out yesterday? It genuinely looks like you didn't since you missed the point updates it had...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/11/10 06:42:14
JNAProductions wrote: A 10-Man Intercessor squad, with the right buffs, can one-round a Questoris Knight.
And no, not Assault Intercessors. The shooty ones can do it.
Yes and that's a whole lotta buffs and considerations in a math-hammer vacuum. Iron Warriors grant full reroll wounds for 1 CP. VotLW is still 1 CP. The prayer is +1 to wound. Prescience and a lord for essentially auto-hits and the exploding 5s.
So, a squad of 20 Noise Marines, with full rerolls to wound, gets...
60 shots
2,100/36 or 175/3 hits at S4 AP0 D1, with +1 to-wound and rerolls to wound. Ignoring cover too. Close enough to 60 for Government work, so call it 60 hits.
Against GEQ, you'd deal just shy of 39 wounds-that's pretty shredding!
Against MEQ, you'd deal just shy of 18 wounds-or, you'd body a full squad, once morale is accounted for, most likely.
Against TEQ, you'd deal just shy of 9 wounds-that's three Terminators.
Against Gravis, you'd deal 15 wounds on the nugget (well, assuming 60 hits)-that's close to a full squad.
Against Knights or other T8 3+ targets, you'd deal just over 11 wounds-not enough to bracket a Knight even.
So, for the cost of 490 points (20 Noise Marines, naked Lord, naked Sorcerer) and two CP, you can do what's listed above.
If you fail Prescience, you're looking at losing 20% of the damage.
You're also Iron Warriors, who are anti-synergistic with Noise Marines owing to granting them two instances of Ignoring Cover.
Admittedly, you can double tap for 2 more CP, so for a full third of your CP, you can kill a whole two max squads of Marines! Or one squad of Terminators!
Now, for 460 points, you can get a naked Captain, naked Master of Sanctity, nkaed Lieutenant, and 10 AutoBolt Intercessors. Put them in Tactical T1 with a strat (2 CP, if I recall correctly), give them +1 to-hit, and +1 to-wound the nearest target (from the Chaplain) as well as RR1s to-hit and wound. Shoot again for 2 CP, by the way.
Without +1 to-wound, you deal the following, assuming 30 hits:
That unit in melee with chainswords does a minimum of 20 to a knight and I'm not going to bother trying to optimize a hypothetical.
And it still can under the current rules, it'll just get torn to pieces after it does it. And it's a very expensive and overly complicated way for CSM to kill a knight in melee. I can, and have, kill a knight with just 2 models (one costing 160 points +1
CP, the other 115, and the first could be done for 145 + 1CP, I just use equipment that isn't required for the particular task) and no strategems. And it only involves getting one 60mm base in engagement range of the knight, not 20 32mm's.
CSM have viable ways to devastate knights with ranged weapons.
Yup, plenty. Killing Knights, or most anything else, isn't a problem for CSM, at range or in melee. Which is what is annoying about this update: it ups our lethality, which we have plenty of, but not our durability, which our infantry lacks. CSM aren't supposed to be glass cannons, but that's what our infantry is becoming. And in the ever increasing lethality of 9th, that just means less actual Chaos Space Marines on the board, and more of our vehicles.
Someday the world will realize that warhammer 40,000 is just a game youre playing with another person, usually alone in a room and GW isn't there. You want CSM to have 2 wounds? you want tanks to be good? That sounds fun to you? Find exactly one (1) other human being that also sounds fun to, and have that fun.
A buddy of mine just finished a gorgeous land raider and was like 'oh man im so sad im going to have to wait to use this until next edition' and its like...why. Here, pick whatever you think makes the most sense:
1) units in a land raider can disembark after moving but cant move further in the movement phase
2) land raiders can ignore enemy models in engagement range when making shooting attacks (same rule as Baneblade)
or
1) land raiders subtract 1 from all damage taken
2) land raiders get D3+3 damage "heavy lascannons"
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!
Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.
And if GW was to just say "all CSM have 2 Wounds" it would be as simple as the Leman Russ rule. But let's not pretend they wouldn't need to revise the point level of every impacted unit, not to mention possibly other rules (Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, and Death Guard Possessed have all had their maximum unit size decreased). We are talking new datasheets, new Power Levels, and new Matched Play points levels. So you aren't asking for a simple errata (the LR is gaining the 2+ armor with no other adjustments include PL and Points), but a major codex revision. So CSM have to wait for their new codex. I'm sure it is frustrating, but it is reasonable given the scale of the changes required.
waefre_1 wrote:
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Would this "all the other marines" include those marines that got a, what was it, week-0 emergency FAQ to give them 2W?
The get-you-by Codex Supplements for Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templars were necessary since their codexes has been superseded by the new Codex Space Marines. They were no longer valid, but GW didn't want to leave the players unable to play the units from those books until their new supplements were released. That was not the case for Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or Chaos Space Marines. Doesn't feel great for CSM players, but it's simply not the same situation.
It isn't, in fact, the same situation. Its a worse one. The loyalists could have played straight out of the basic book with no supplement required. Chaos gets effectively teased with the second wound for... 14 months and counting. The basic army being bunk is a lot
different from playing your super special whatever veterans as regular veterans for a month.
Plus its just straight up false to suggest they couldn't have done a similar FAQ for Chaos. Nothing stopped GW from supporting chaos armies with a FAQ except themselves.
The 'scale of the changes required' is +1 W for +3 points. Done. Or whatever the cost difference is between the 8.5 codex and 9e codex for tac marines. Its just as simple an errata as what they just did, either points adjustments for some factions or just rewriting Death to the False Emperor to 'additional hits on 6s to everybody!' with no other changes. Its just as imperfect as all these other changes, but no longer feels like chaos marines are uninvited to the entire edition.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/10 20:50:56
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the change to Death to the False Emperor is really strange given that Death Guard and 1KSons don't have the rule and instead got +1A.
So... why not give CSMs +1A?
DG & TS just had hateful assault get baked in. Whether or not CSM does that in addition to the new DttFE will be interesting. Here's hoping it becomes unmodified hits eventually.
the_scotsman wrote: Someday the world will realize that warhammer 40,000 is just a game youre playing with another person, usually alone in a room and GW isn't there. . .
Because tournament-adjacent metas are a thing, as is a basic desire for some "officialdom".
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!
Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.
And if GW was to just say "all CSM have 2 Wounds" it would be as simple as the Leman Russ rule. But let's not pretend they wouldn't need to revise the point level of every impacted unit, not to mention possibly other rules (Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, and Death Guard Possessed have all had their maximum unit size decreased). We are talking new datasheets, new Power Levels, and new Matched Play points levels. So you aren't asking for a simple errata (the LR is gaining the 2+ armor with no other adjustments include PL and Points), but a major codex revision. So CSM have to wait for their new codex. I'm sure it is frustrating, but it is reasonable given the scale of the changes required.
waefre_1 wrote:
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Would this "all the other marines" include those marines that got a, what was it, week-0 emergency FAQ to give them 2W?
The get-you-by Codex Supplements for Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templars were necessary since their codexes has been superseded by the new Codex Space Marines. They were no longer valid, but GW didn't want to leave the players unable to play the units from those books until their new supplements were released. That was not the case for Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or Chaos Space Marines. Doesn't feel great for CSM players, but it's simply not the same situation.
It isn't, in fact, the same situation. Its a worse one. The loyalists could have played straight out of the basic book with no supplement required. Chaos gets effectively teased with the second wound for... 14 months and counting. The basic army being bunk is a lot
different from playing your super special whatever veterans as regular veterans for a month.
Plus its just straight up false to suggest they couldn't have done a similar FAQ for Chaos. Nothing stopped GW from supporting chaos armies with a FAQ except themselves.
The 'scale of the changes required' is +1 W for +3 points. Done. Or whatever the cost difference is between the 8.5 codex and 9e codex for tac marines. Its just as simple an errata as what they just did, either points adjustments for some factions or just rewriting Death to the False Emperor to 'additional hits on 6s to everybody!' with no other changes. Its just as imperfect as all these other changes, but no longer feels like chaos marines are uninvited to the entire edition.
The loyalist could have played straight to of the book? You do realize that multiple units in the various supplements (priorly codexes) are not in the current Codex Space Marines? No Deathwatch Veterans or Kill Teams. No Blood Angels Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. No Dark Angels Black Knights or Deathwing Terminators Squads. No Black Templar Crusader Squads. These were all in books invalided by C:SM. GW either had to give them a get-you-by supplement or tell them they couldn't use those units until they got around to publishing the supplement.
Now tell me what publication has superseded Codex Chaos Space Marines while also dropping units that are in it? The Space Marine chapters that had codexes were in a much worst position than Chaos Space Marine players who are frustrated about not yet getting their addition wound. It sucks, but they haven't pulled the rules to any of your units. Not liking the official rules is not worst than not having official rules.
We all know that GW just doesn't do FAQ/Erratas that drastic these days without a solid reason. I'm sure that if GW publishes Codex Chaos Space Marines and pulls all the Legion specific characters because they are going into Supplement that they will produce get-you-by rules for them on day 1. Until then, you are demanding something you should know by now that you are never going to get.
I don't see how doing a 'get you by' update for CSM isn't something GW could have done.
They managed to update all the weapons that changed at the start of 9th, so what's so hard about "Add +1 Wound and +3ppm to the following CSM units..."?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't see how doing a 'get you by' update for CSM isn't something GW could have done.
They managed to update all the weapons that changed at the start of 9th, so what's so hard about "Add +1 Wound and +3ppm to the following CSM units..."?
This is absolutely 100% true.
There are a lot of people saying this, and I agree with all of them about this. And it's funny, because it might be the ONLY thing that I agree with where some of those people are concerned- which is why I had to mention how vehemently I agree. Hopefully recognizing the places where we do share common ground will help us avoid getting too terribly aggressive about the points where we don't agree.
Honestly, the chaos dex can't come fast enough for me. GW's handling of the disparity between loyalists and CSM is easily THE most egregious problem with this edition (from my POV- the opinions and experience of others may vary).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/11 02:07:21
I will say, as a marine player, the game is literally full of damage 2+ weapons right now. My marines might as well have one wound for how fast they die. Chaos marines are just as durable against those weapons, and get a discount.
But, I agree chaos marines should have gotten a hold over faq like the loyalist supplements did.
As a chaos space marine player supplements in general are the most egregious problem with the edition. The layer of rules to layer on top of your layers of layers of rules...
Also when your army hasn’t had a codex a supplement kind of comes off as a slap to the face. You are half right though. Reprinting all the 8th edition material and selling it back to us instead of a codex or even the 8th edition rules with 2 wound marines is the beyond insulting...
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Is modifying an armor save (Leman Russ Tanks) a "rules tweak"? Looks like a stat change to me!
Imo there's no excuse for not having given CSM 2W by now.
And if GW was to just say "all CSM have 2 Wounds" it would be as simple as the Leman Russ rule. But let's not pretend they wouldn't need to revise the point level of every impacted unit, not to mention possibly other rules (Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, and Death Guard Possessed have all had their maximum unit size decreased). We are talking new datasheets, new Power Levels, and new Matched Play points levels. So you aren't asking for a simple errata (the LR is gaining the 2+ armor with no other adjustments include PL and Points), but a major codex revision. So CSM have to wait for their new codex. I'm sure it is frustrating, but it is reasonable given the scale of the changes required.
waefre_1 wrote:
alextroy wrote: Two wound CSM is not a rules tweak. They will get them with their codex like all the other marines.
Would this "all the other marines" include those marines that got a, what was it, week-0 emergency FAQ to give them 2W?
The get-you-by Codex Supplements for Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Black Templars were necessary since their codexes has been superseded by the new Codex Space Marines. They were no longer valid, but GW didn't want to leave the players unable to play the units from those books until their new supplements were released. That was not the case for Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or Chaos Space Marines. Doesn't feel great for CSM players, but it's simply not the same situation.
It isn't, in fact, the same situation. Its a worse one. The loyalists could have played straight out of the basic book with no supplement required. Chaos gets effectively teased with the second wound for... 14 months and counting. The basic army being bunk is a lot
different from playing your super special whatever veterans as regular veterans for a month.
Plus its just straight up false to suggest they couldn't have done a similar FAQ for Chaos. Nothing stopped GW from supporting chaos armies with a FAQ except themselves.
The 'scale of the changes required' is +1 W for +3 points. Done. Or whatever the cost difference is between the 8.5 codex and 9e codex for tac marines. Its just as simple an errata as what they just did, either points adjustments for some factions or just rewriting Death to the False Emperor to 'additional hits on 6s to everybody!' with no other changes. Its just as imperfect as all these other changes, but no longer feels like chaos marines are uninvited to the entire edition.
The loyalist could have played straight to of the book? You do realize that multiple units in the various supplements (priorly codexes) are not in the current Codex Space Marines? No Deathwatch Veterans or Kill Teams. No Blood Angels Death Company or Sanguinary Guard. No Dark Angels Black Knights or Deathwing Terminators Squads. No Black Templar Crusader Squads. These were all in books invalided by C:SM. GW either had to give them a get-you-by supplement or tell them they couldn't use those units until they got around to publishing the supplement.
I do realize. I don't care. Most of those have equivalents, most of the supplements came out in short order, and they did do the FAQs (and most of us were in lockdown anyway). Its a non-issue.
Now tell me what publication has superseded Codex Chaos Space Marines while also dropping units that are in it?
9e Core rulebook. Or depending on your perspective, several editions of CSM Codexes (up to 5). How long, for example, did that traitor legions book last? 6 months?
We all know that GW just doesn't do FAQ/Erratas that drastic these days without a solid reason. I'm sure that if GW publishes Codex Chaos Space Marines and pulls all the Legion specific characters because they are going into Supplement that they will produce get-you-by rules for them on day 1. Until then, you are demanding something you should know by now that you are never going to get.
Nonsense. They literally just proved they do FAQs/Erratas without a solid reason or any sense of proportion. And something this simple and obvious should have been done day one, not 'never.' And clearly would have been had they been loyalist marines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/11 02:33:43
macluvin wrote: As a chaos space marine player supplements in general are the most egregious problem with the edition. The layer of rules to layer on top of your layers of layers of rules...
Also when your army hasn’t had a codex a supplement kind of comes off as a slap to the face. You are half right though. Reprinting all the 8th edition material and selling it back to us instead of a codex or even the 8th edition rules with 2 wound marines is the beyond insulting...
You can have layers and layers of rules without the need for supplements. Just look at the AdMech book.
Supplements aren't the cause of the problem. They're just a symptom.
Because many things are likely to change when the CSM codex drops. Its not just 2W. They are probably adding one attack at least on every single unit. But death to the false emperor will go away (or be radically changed). And all the points would have to be adjusted upwards to reflect all these.
So yeah ... I guess its so much changes they would rather just release all these in a new 9th ed CSM codex instead.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Because many things are likely to change when the CSM codex drops. Its not just 2W. They are probably adding one attack at least on every single unit. But death to the false emperor will go away (or be radically changed). And all the points would have to be adjusted upwards to reflect all these.
So yeah ... I guess its so much changes they would rather just release all these in a new 9th ed CSM codex instead.
And none of that needs to happen all at once. They could have added the +1 wound and requisite points bump at any time since the loyalist codex was released, including in this "update", but they haven't. Nobody is asking for all of that, just the additional wound, and nobody expects it to come without an increase in points.
macluvin wrote: As a chaos space marine player supplements in general are the most egregious problem with the edition. The layer of rules to layer on top of your layers of layers of rules...
Also when your army hasn’t had a codex a supplement kind of comes off as a slap to the face. You are half right though. Reprinting all the 8th edition material and selling it back to us instead of a codex or even the 8th edition rules with 2 wound marines is the beyond insulting...
You can have layers and layers of rules without the need for supplements. Just look at the AdMech book.
Supplements aren't the cause of the problem. They're just a symptom.
They are aggravating factors and they are barriers. Many problems would go away if supplements went away.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Everyone is welcome to their opinion on an extra Wound Errata for CSM, but only GW's opinion matters. Gnashing your teeth every time they do and FAQ and don't do what you want is a waste of your time. They aren't going to start now 14 months after they release Codex Space Marines.
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