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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It would probably be better to normalise the faction - give it assault abilities, maybe even psychic powers etc.

But GW almost certainly won't - especially if there isn't a new range of models to sell. I'd therefore expect there just to be very efficient shooting, and, much like Ad Mech (until just now) - you just delete opponent's armies and win.

So
1. A few points reductions.
2. Stick a point of AP on.. basically everything.
3. Let you shoot markerlights along with any other weapons and maybe cut the table down from 5 ranks to say 3.

And that would basically be that. Boring, but if cheap enough, potentially top tier.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





The biggest thing hurting Tau in 9th is an inability to play the midfield and hold objectives, which is entirely what 9th revolves around.

JSJ was nice and could be used more aggressively when the game wasn't as deadly as it is now but its not going to help you hold objectives out in the open.

If I were to give a single wish that is pure wishlisting it would be a 'riot suppression' kind of unit. Short range gun and shield to make them survivable with the option of a few flamers for charge deterant.
   
Made in ua
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Speaking as someone who is an outside observer (last time my Tau got a proper go around was in 5th). My main observation, certainly since 8th is that Tau have certainly lost their identity in some way.

What do I mean by this? Well, you can even see it in posts in this very thread, where they talk about Tau only participating in a single phase in the game. That's the problem. Tau used to be the mobile gunline army- they weren't stand and shoot (that was IG's main gimmick), they were "scoot and shoot", with things like Fish of Fury and mass Crisis suits being quite popular. Even though they were still a "shooty" army they still participated in all phases of the game due to JSJ etc.

Since 8th, Practically every game involving Tau I have seen went the same way, they'd just sit there and essentially be Xeno IG, as there was no reason for them to move. So the game would always end one of two ways- the Tau having finished their exercise in dice rolling eventually win or their lines are hit and they lose. End of game GG.
Previous edition's Tau were never like that, with things like JSJ and other elements encouraging aggressive play and a cat and mouse game with your opponent.

How will they get this back? Well, that is an entirely different question that I'm not sure I can answer but if they are so hellbent on keeping Tau more or less the same (and things like the current terrain rules really won't help even if they add JSJ back in...) then they need to lean more into the auxiliaries- You've got loads of the Battlesuits. Good. Now stop for a while GW and focus on the other part of what makes the Tau unique; that being the mass republic of loads and loads of minor xenos species under their banners.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/20 13:36:55



Games Workshop Delenda Est.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy




Personally, as a Non Tau player if I wanted to give Tau melee capacity I would got about it in two different ways. Give them a small cadre of Alien Auxiliaries to handle that a new kroot/vespid unit. The presence of Aux in Tau lately is honestly sad given the lore. Vespid as a quick, moderately durable melee unit would be amazing.

Then I would have the Tau pull out, say old XV-24 stealth suits, and change there armor to be the same as a Crisis Suits, give each a flamer and some sort of melee weapon. Perhaps similar to that old fusion blade I recall from 7th edition. Allow them to flame in melee, give them a name that emphasizes their sacrifice in being the unit that stands between the rest of the group and the enemy. Fluff it as the Empire being too hard pressed to not repurpose old suits.

Stat it as a M6 WS4+ BS4+ Str 4, T3 W2 A2 LD8 SV 3+.
Wargear being a Tau Flamer, and a melee weapon that lets them hit hard.
Put 5 in a squad, make them Troops but with the rule that you can't include more of these squads then you have Fire Warrior teams, similar to the Sisters Novate rule.

Second, Tau if they continue to be bad in melee should be damn slippery. If you catch them then they should die against a unit that should be able to reasonably able to kill them. But those move away mechanics that Admech has and their punishing overwatch should make it difficult to do.

Write up a strategem for say 2cp that lets Crisis suits make a movement when a charge is declared against them. Call it Evasive Tactics.

I think these would give them some new, serious objective squaters
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 Grimtuff wrote:
Speaking as someone who is an outside observer (last time my Tau got a proper go around was in 5th). My main observation, certainly since 8th is that Tau have certainly lost their identity in some way.

What do I mean by this? Well, you can even see it in posts in this very thread, where they talk about Tau only participating in a single phase in the game. That's the problem. Tau used to be the mobile gunline army- they weren't stand and shoot (that was IG's main gimmick), they were "scoot and shoot", with things like Fish of Fury and mass Crisis suits being quite popular. Even though they were still a "shooty" army they still participated in all phases of the game due to JSJ etc.

Since 8th, Practically every game involving Tau I have seen went the same way, they'd just sit there and essentially be Xeno IG, as there was no reason for them to move. So the game would always end one of two ways- the Tau having finished their exercise in dice rolling eventually win or their lines are hit and they lose. End of game GG.
Previous edition's Tau were never like that, with things like JSJ and other elements encouraging aggressive play and a cat and mouse game with your opponent.

How will they get this back? Well, that is an entirely different question that I'm not sure I can answer but if they are so hellbent on keeping Tau more or less the same (and things like the current terrain rules really won't help even if they add JSJ back in...) then they need to lean more into the auxiliaries- You've got loads of the Battlesuits. Good. Now stop for a while GW and focus on the other part of what makes the Tau unique; that being the mass republic of loads and loads of minor xenos species under their banners.


I would agree with this based on what I saw trying to make Tau work in 8th. They lack field presence outside of their optimal ranged killzone (what I call the area between getting charged and being able to bring their full firepower to bear) which makes it tend to boil down to "can the Tau shoot the enemy off the table enough to move into the middle". The lack of melee makes them fall apart when charged and entirely dependent on their ability to kill with shooting. GW might be overly cautious of making them too deadly at range (which goes back to their 6/7th edition pub stomper status) but they have nothing else to rely on especially after the 8th edition reboot of the ruleset which gutted all their utility.

I also think that the game is too deadly for a JSJ style of play to really work as they either mow down stuff without being able to be caught or struggle to kill stuff fast enough before getting killed by return fire themselves (its a very thin hole to thread to get it to balance and is way too reliant on the balance of every other codex to really be sustainable). Tau firepower (and lack of everything else) creates a very heavy "win more" feedback loop as bringing ranged attacks to the enemy is by far the easiest thing in the game and the removal of more complex positioning and to an extent cover mechanics tends to just allow gunlines to be the optimal play. Only reason Tau would have a reason to move out of a gunline is to either take objectives (which is a good thing but the lack of utility in the game rules hurts the Tau trying to not castle/gunline) or if their firepower was so lacking that they can't withstand the enemy advance into the firing line (which is basically GG for the Tau given the current state of 40k).

I just don't see a good solution for the Tau that doesn't result in either the Tau being weak or being too strong and thus punishing to all but the most competitive lists. The Tau absolutely need more utility to allow them to do something besides "kill all the things" but the barebones core rules nature of 8/9th makes having utility mechanics more difficult as you have to make everything basically more bespoke rules which no other codex can effectively interact with due to those rules/mechanics being unique to that codex (unless its simple modifications to hit, wound, pen, move, or morale). Shoving utility into stratagems feels inflexible and you end up with more "a Tau army has 1 EMP grenade which has to be delivered by the logistical drone to a single firewarrior each turn" nonsense.

Expanding their auxiliary lineup is probably the simplest option which could allow for some melee units (that hopefully aren't hot garbage like kroot tend to be in melee) but I think it can end up making the Tau rely on certain units too much and sorta forcing the Tau to play like other factions instead of the Tau having their own style of combat. But overall I think the overly simple nature of the core rules of current 40k shows its cracks the most when dealing with an army like the Tau which thematically skews heavily towards ranged combat at the expense of everything else.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




Tau were already a gunline army in 6th. Only the Riptide and Stormsurge changed that a little because they abused the hilarious Monster rules of the time and kicked ass in melee due to auto-DS 2 for monsters and I think stomp attacks for the Stormsurge.
Yes, there were always creative Tau players that used infiltrating Ghosts and Kroot and deep striking suits and breachers in devilfishes and you can still do all of that but it always was playing Tau on hard mode when you could just simply stand there and shoot everything.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Crisis suits moved to troops.
BS 3+ on suits as standard.
Suits allowed limited movement in the fight phase.
Kroot gain infiltrate and some sort of cover save.
Damage buffs on a lot of the weapons.
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
What role would Firewarriors or Kroot play then?


Occupying the vital front known as "the shelf".
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





West Virginia

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
What role would Firewarriors or Kroot play then?


For clarification, I would not like to see them as just straight troops. I would want there to be a way to give them Objective Secured. Maybe similar to how you can give Leman Russes ObSec if they are in a Spearhead Detachment you could give Crisis Suits ObSec in a Vanguard Detachment. It would at least cost you command points if you wanted the detachment to get them ObSec.

Jump, Shoot, Jump is something that I think really needs to come back for T'au. It is very thematic for them. Again, it doesn't need to be a universal rule for battlesuits or anything. Perhaps a stratagem you can use on battlesuits with the fly keyword.

If T'au get a boost to melee it should be through auxiliaries. It would be awesome to see Kroot get a boost to help with that issue because allowing T'au to shoot into combat would most likely be too strong. I think if they wanted to do that it would have to be a thing where even if the T'au charge they are always selected last in the fight phase. You could then choose each fight phase to allow them to follow the normal fight phase activation order and use their melee profile, or you could choose to shoot into combat that phase but they would only activate after their opponent activated all of their units in combat. There is already a stratagem which allows you to shoot pulse weapons as pistols, so there is precedent for it.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
For clarification, I would not like to see them as just straight troops. I would want there to be a way to give them Objective Secured. Maybe similar to how you can give Leman Russes ObSec if they are in a Spearhead Detachment you could give Crisis Suits ObSec in a Vanguard Detachment. It would at least cost you command points if you wanted the detachment to get them ObSec.


Thousand Sons gives their bEsPoKe Terminators ObSec baseline, no hoops.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

Jump, Shoot, Jump is something that I think really needs to come back for T'au. It is very thematic for them. Again, it doesn't need to be a universal rule for battlesuits or anything. Perhaps a stratagem you can use on battlesuits with the fly keyword.


Craftworlds got Fire and Fade, so there's precedent for that too.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Haven't played 9th, but I'd like to see breachers/carbines/pulse pistols given the ability (perhaps as a stratagem) to make the units being charged costly for the attacker, if not a deterrent.

JSJ needs to come back to crisis suits & stealth suits, and it wouldn't be bad if "pop-up" attacks were made available for Hammerheads (and of course, eldar falcons).

I'd rather Tau melee abilities weren't buffed, but it would be nice if Kroot could fill that ability, becoming a defensive wall against being charged or arriving as a flanking charge to get Tau out of a close combat mess.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Yellin' Yoof




 Aftersong wrote:
2. Railguns get damage increases based on size and ignore "can only take X wounds per phase rules"

Casually kill Ghaz turn one so he can't call a Waaagh...
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

Commissar Yarrork wrote:
 Aftersong wrote:
2. Railguns get damage increases based on size and ignore "can only take X wounds per phase rules"

Casually kill Ghaz turn one so he can't call a Waaagh...


Yeah that's a pretty bad idea.

If we're talking about new units, I had in mind something like a faster Pathfinder variant. In terms of aesthetics and movement, imagine the Pilots from Titanfall:

Seeker Team
M12" BS4+ WS5+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld* Sv5+

*Ld is whatever the default Pathfinder one is.

Wargear
Pulse Carbine
Low Intensity Markerlight
Seeker Thrusters

A model with Seeker Thrusters ignores any movement penalties or vertical terrain distances.

Low Intensity Markerlight: Range 18", S- Ap-, Assault 1


So you have a unit which is much faster compared to the Pathfinders especially as their Markerlights are now Assault, but you trade 50% of the MLs range as well as any upgrades or Drones.



   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





I was surprised to discover from a Tau player friend that Stealth Suits aren't troops.

Maybe start there?

Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better.

-Roboute Guilliman
 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Why in the world would stealth suits be troops?

Specialized infiltrators don't make sense for a backbone of a tau army.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

Stealth Suits make as much sense as Crisis Suits being troops, if we're going to be fair.

To clarify a bit more for those in the back:
Lorewise, we've had some Tau formations over the years that emphasize the Crisis Suits being held in reserve to drop on Stealth Suit marked positions. There was a whole concept introduced alongside of the Ghostkeel of Stealth Suits effectively being the 'troops' for all-optical camo Tau forces.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/21 17:03:42


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




CWE do exist and Tau have an entire military doctrine revolving around ambushes. They absolutely could make sense.

I don't agree with them being troops, but we have a very bloated Elite slot. I'd rather Riptide and variants hit the LoW slot instead.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




Exiling units to the LoW slot just seems mean.
This about making the army better for 9th, isn't it?

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Voss wrote:
Why in the world would stealth suits be troops?

Specialized infiltrators don't make sense for a backbone of a tau army.
Infiltrators are SM Troops.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 JNAProductions wrote:
Voss wrote:
Why in the world would stealth suits be troops?

Specialized infiltrators don't make sense for a backbone of a tau army.
Infiltrators are SM Troops.


That is one of random words beginning with 'I' that the Primaris name generator kicked up for a unit, yes.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think you could make an argument for Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits and Pathfinders all being troops. But all this does is crowd the troops spot and doesn't in my view at least make Tau any more interesting.

I mean if Fire Warriors are so bad you hate bringing say 15 along then I think the codex would have significant problems from the get go.
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Make the Manta Troops.
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





I wanna go back to New Jersey

I want Rinyon Encirclements/"""Ninja""" Tau in some shape or form back

9/12 inch anti-deployment bubbles really do a good job at keeping anything critical out of reserves so long as my opponents know something is waiting there before deployment starts.

Let Kroot naturally ignore this utter hinderance so they can actually play aggressively when deploying from reserves or out of regular deployment on the board so they don't get hard-countered by some dink-headed forward deployed unit with a 12 inch gizmo bubble before they get a chance to actually do anything.

Also try tweaking the Guardian drone from a +5 invuln to ignores AP -1/-2 since that's a new concept that's been making the rounds for improving infantry survivability.

Also hoping the Hammerhead Railgun has an improved damage profile against Vehicle keyword units so it can return to being the premiere anti-tank gun it once was and so it doesn't feel like it needs to be squadroned to be effective.

Maybe try doing something with the carbine this time, like making it one shot 2 damage since it remembers that it has a grenade launcher on it.

Crisis suits are in an okay spot right now, only thing in need of changing is the support systems that aren't the ATS and shield generator (Maybe Target Lock too if they turn crisis suits back into a unit that loses BS with certain weapons if they move/advance again)

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2021/11/23 16:38:46


bonbaonbardlements 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

Give Tau suits the ability to suicide in combat, something like each can detonate their cores to deal d3 mortal wounds to each unit within 6".

Get RID if the silly 1 commander per detachment rule.

Allow FSE to field crisis suits as troops again, maybe [[hmm]] to field stealths as troops, or make it an option in ala the custom sept list.

When it comes to advancing the story, what happens when the holo projector simulating Aun'va fails during a Empire-wide announcemnt?

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Oh yeah. The game sure does need more Mortal Wounds and added lethality.

And I'm just having trouble getting past the "Make Crisis Suits troops!" side of things, because if that were the case I just cannot see a future where Tau players take Firewarriors (let alone Kroot) for reasons beyond "I just like them!".

 carldooley wrote:
Get RID if the silly 1 commander per detachment rule.
That's spreading to every army because it doesn't make sense for Marine formations to be led by 2 Captains, Chaos to have 2 Lords, and so on. I'm sure Guard will be next with only 1 Tank Commander per formation. I doubt Tau would escape this.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/11/23 05:11:25


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Suits as troops solves none of the problems of the faction.
   
Made in de
Hungry Ghoul



Germany

Make the Commander a single datasheet and then give it options to equip the different suits.
--> Rule of 3 takes effect and the number of overall commanders would be regulated...

If your warlord utilizes a XV8* suit --> crisis suits gain ObSec
Warlord wears a stealth suit (similar to shadowsuns thingy) --> stealth suits gain ObSec

Make Fusionblades (or something similar) a general weapon choice. Enhance our Fusionblasters with the new melta rules.

Mont'ka and kayon need an overhaul, as well as the ethereals and the fireblades support abilities.
After that, our firewarriors should be ok to fullfill the basic infantry role...

That's my take (not completely thought through... just a quick spit)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/23 07:52:08


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think tau auxiliaries need to be expanded, adding in some psykers and some good melee options, but that seems unlikely to happen this edition.

Assuming tau aren’t getting any new units, a mechanic similar to GSC brood brothers could allow for some representation of auxiliaries and a way to include some melee and psychic options for the army, but I think that’s also unlikely.

I wouldn’t be in favour of making battle suits Troops and I would keep the 1 commander per detachment limit.

This is what I’d look at changing:

Kroot - melee weapons should be -1 AP, and maybe there base Attacks should be 2. Also the scout move should be replaced with an infiltrate ability. I’d consider making the hidden hunters strategem part of their special rules instead of a strategem ( +1 save and -1 to hit from ranged weapons when in cover)

Crisis Suits - I’d bring back jump-shoot-jump for crisis suits, but the second move would have restrictions similar to pile in and consolidation moves but rather than having to move towards the closest enemy you can choose instead to move towards the closest objective. This will help with tau advancing onto objectives which they struggle with at present.

Devilfish - should get the same assault vehicle rule as the space marine impulsor- can disembark after the vehicle makes a normal move, but the disembarked unit can’t charge that turn.

Photon grenades - these should give a benefit in melee, the unit counts as in Heavy cover (+1 save if they don’t charge)

Markerlights - I’d simplify this. Instead of firing any other weapons a model armed with a Markerlight can fire the markerlight. A hit means the rest of the squad get +1 BS if they are shooting the same target. In addition other units with the same <sept> keyword can draw LOS to the target even if they otherwise couldn’t see it. Benefits of cover like save modifiers and BS modifiers would still apply.

Drones - I’d consider getting rid of drones as units and only have them attached to other units. In this case, no saviour protocols are needed, you just apply wounds to the drones in the unit before taking wounds on the other models using the normal wound allocation rules.

Master of War - Kauyon or Mont’ka would be declared in the Command Phase every turn. And both would be army wide and apply to all units that share the <sept> keyword with the commander declaring Kauyon or Mont’ka
Kauyon - if <sept> units don’t move they count as in Defensible terrain - can choose to either Hold steady (overwatch on 5+) or Set to defend (+1 on hit rolls in melee).
Mont’ka - for <sept> units rapid fire weapons count as Assault weapons this turn.

I’m not sure what to do with Vespids, and sept subfaction bonuses and ethereal abilities would need adjustments, and points/power level changes as appropriate, but that’s my initial thoughts for the direction I’d push for Tau.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh yeah. The game sure does need more Mortal Wounds and added lethality.

And I'm just having trouble getting past the "Make Crisis Suits troops!" side of things, because if that were the case I just cannot see a future where Tau players take Firewarriors (let alone Kroot) for reasons beyond "I just like them!".
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.
   
 
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