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 Irbis wrote:
...I still remember jokers complaining about 8th edition SM 'broken' codex when WAAAC lists didn't even look at units from it, it was all same-same FW leviathan/contemptor/deredeo spam. Complete with clowns shouting SM book should be nerfed on the basis of units that weren't even in it (and what's worse, GW listening to that nonsense, Iron Hands were okay with their rules affecting normal dreads, they only become disgustingly OP with FW gak yet instead of banning it GW choose to nerf IH rules ruining them for people who didn't spam recast to WAAAC)...

Interesting that Chaos lists of the time didn't have the same tournament dominance with their Leviathans/Contemptors/Deredeos, or that the loyalist ones weren't used at all before the second SM book came out and dumped a bunch of stratagems into the mix that work on them. Could it be that the mistake had something to do with the fact that all the SM stratagems worked on the Dreadnaught keyword while all the Chaos stratagems worked on the Helbrute datasheet, and the Leviathan/Contemptor/Deredeo aren't good when they have zero stratagems?

 Irbis wrote:

 aphyon wrote:
This is similar to something i did back when there was a section of the fan base that thought anything FW was forbidden because it wasn't the main line game collection and thus should not be used in normal games.

Or maybe, just maybe, they hated playing FW because it was horrifically broken gak that was in 95% unfun to play for both sides, either because it was really weak or gamebreakingly OP? Yes, there were fun rules like some SM chapters from Badab War, but majority of it belonged either in softest possible narrative games or banned outright for costing less than half of what it should.

No, the real hate was always really $$$ based. Those who argued against FW stuff often couldn't afford it. Or the books where the rules were. And they were only vaguely aware of the rules for a few flagship models. "OMG! a Baneblade...." So they tried to "balance" things by simply not playing against FW stuff.

Man. We still have people here making the "FW is OOP!" argument? That was old (and just as untrue) over a decade ago.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Man. We still have people here making the "FW is OOP!" argument? That was old (and just as untrue) over a decade ago.

The issue is that for a bunch of people, when FW stuff shows up it's in the context of a WAAC type player. And sometimes when you read the rules it's more than a little eye rolling.

It's not that all of FW is bad, it's that people get caught off guard by the obnoxious stuff and it leaves a bad impression. Leviathans sure were popular for a reason. Whatever the Space Marine plane thing was called (Fire Raptor?) was pretty irritating. There was some Captain Batman for Raven Guard or successor whose rules just read like fanfic, too. Certain units show up and FW is seen through a particular lens.

Also, a lot of FW is just another layer of space marine gak.

My argument is that none of it is any better or worse than the stuff GW writes themselves, and the notion of FW unbalancing things when GW's rules are already horribly balanced is just laughable.

So when you see arguments like Irbis' - an argument so old that it probably celebrated the turn of the millennium - it doesn't ring true. Or logical. Or even sensible.

I love the idea, and good luck.

Personally I'd just get everyone to send you what they want to use and approve/adjust like a dictator, maybe do manual pairings for fair match ups. Might gain/lose a few friends! but it will be easier than getting anything done by committee.

Another way of doing it is just narative open play - you get everyone to send you a list of what models they want to use on the day, with fluff, and you become a GM and write up a campaign. Lots of work for you!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My argument is that none of it is any better or worse than the stuff GW writes themselves, and the notion of FW unbalancing things when GW's rules are already horribly balanced is just laughable.

So when you see arguments like Irbis' - an argument so old that it probably celebrated the turn of the millennium - it doesn't ring true. Or logical. Or even sensible.

Oh I get it, a Fire Raptor wasn't more obnoxious than Triptide, but if that type of thing is your usual exposure to FW, you're gonna come out of it with a bad impression.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My argument is that none of it is any better or worse than the stuff GW writes themselves, and the notion of FW unbalancing things when GW's rules are already horribly balanced is just laughable.

So when you see arguments like Irbis' - an argument so old that it probably celebrated the turn of the millennium - it doesn't ring true. Or logical. Or even sensible.

Oh I get it, a Fire Raptor wasn't more obnoxious than Triptide, but if that type of thing is your usual exposure to FW, you're gonna come out of it with a bad impression.

Agree, it's similar to people who have the impression that traffic lights are red more often than green when they roll up to one.

The vast majority of FW models I've ever faced were owned by collectors/hobbyists who just were after awesome models, and the more FW they brought the more their armies sucked, though sometimes weird things happened.

However, in the majority of games where I faced FW models, I already knew those model's rules from following dakka. And they would disappear to the display case for all eternity after they have gotten hit with the nerfhammer.

It's not FW's fault though. There are castellans, loyal 32 and piles of asscannon razorbacks sitting next to those FW models.