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Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






I think for the Primarchs it was a case of being science projects rather than adapted children i.e. they were specifically crafted from their earliest stages all the way up until they were scattered. Their enhanced brains meant they could pick up skills and abilities unbelievably fast, like learning to read, write and speak languages fluently within months rather than years. They weren't human, not really, so their development wouldn't follow a normal path.
For Space Marines, if you can't read, write or speak Gothic then it's not an issue because the Apothecaries can just cut you open and put some gubbins in there if you need it or they just put you in the indoctrination pod for a couple extra washes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 18:42:34


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Gert wrote:
Oh for sure Ultramarine Aspirants have to write essays and the like. There are academies all over the 500 Worlds that take children to prepare them for service with the Chapter. Something like:

"Roboute Guilliman is the greatest of the Primarchs and is considered the spiritual leige of all Codex Chapters: discuss why this is 100% accurate."


The funniest part is this is canonically accurate according to the Uriel Ventris novels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 20:05:03


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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Longtime Dakkanaut





The primarchs were definitely programmed with knowledge, every single one of them was a leader, scientist, engineer, leader and general by the time they were in their early teens and in some cases they were well exceeding the level of technology and knowledge available on the entire planet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So they couldn’t have been taught it by their adoptive societies

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 20:05:49


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





The Shire(s)

 Gert wrote:
I think for the Primarchs it was a case of being science projects rather than adapted children i.e. they were specifically crafted from their earliest stages all the way up until they were scattered. Their enhanced brains meant they could pick up skills and abilities unbelievably fast, like learning to read, write and speak languages fluently within months rather than years. They weren't human, not really, so their development wouldn't follow a normal path.
True, but it shows that they are not even accelerated humans, but coded from the start to grow into a desired end result.

For Space Marines, if you can't read, write or speak Gothic then it's not an issue because the Apothecaries can just cut you open and put some gubbins in there if you need it or they just put you in the indoctrination pod for a couple extra washes.

Well, I was referring to poor brain development to start with, which means a lack of neurone and synapse development, so it would need gubbins. However, I think it is much more likely that geneseed can simply force neuroplasticity to restart and allow new neural networks to form in a largely "finished" brain for a standard human (by the teens, most neuroplasticity has gone).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I used Surgeon specifically, because that’s a further qualification you need to gain once you’re MD.


I meant to reply to this before.

This generally isn't true in the UK. Awarded medical degrees are bachelor of medicine and bachelor of surgery/chirugery (usually MBBS or MBChB). A fresh junior doctor has as much basic general surgical competence as they do general medicine, and should be able to perform basic surgical skills like scrubbing into theatre or suturing. The time to become a senior doctor is the same- around 9 years- because there is just as much to learn for non-surgical specialties at a postgraduate level. The only exception is general practice, which is 5 years minimum.

I think there was one medical school which only offered a bachelor in medicine, but I have no idea if that is still the case. It has been 8 years since I researched this!

 ChargerIIC wrote:
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IIRC most Astartes Chapters have battle signs and ocular communication systems so being able to speak might not even be a requirement. Just look around the inside of your helmet and blink at some options to order your squad around.
   
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 Gert wrote:
IIRC most Astartes Chapters have battle signs and ocular communication systems so being able to speak might not even be a requirement. Just look around the inside of your helmet and blink at some options to order your squad around.


They can do that, I think I read in one novel they used soft taps on the vox (like morse-code) to communicate. That suggest quite some intelligence I guess.
   
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Intelligence tests with SM?

Hmm, the lore always talked about physical requirements. A SM is a soldier which makes him expendable and you don´t have to be smart to become one. Even if you say a SM is better described as being special forces this won´t change a lot. Requirements for special forces is being in even better shape than your average grunt. However to be able to make it to the special forces you also need to have enough willpower to handle all the stress during the various training sessions.

So I would say no. Average IQ would suffice. A SM doesn´t need to be a rocket scientist. It would even be a hindrance as he would then question the training methods constantly. Probably would make him even recalcitrant.
   
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U.k

Any soldier that has to operate independently for long periods of time like the space marines may have to has to have a degree of intelligence, but it will very specific types of intelligence. I have worked with and trained special forces types in hospitals and they are very intelligent, they have to be. Marines would be the same.

As for the whole being too intelligent will mean you will question orders etc, I am not sure that’s true, but even if it were the whole psycho indoctrination thing would take care of that.

So like I said earlier, having skills like lateral thinking and problem solving would be vital to a space marine recruit, I am not saying they are all rocket scientists, but all the chapters would have a desired level of intelligence and a desired set of mental capabilities and characteristics they would be after.
   
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Macon, GA

Is there anything in the lore that talks about what happens when a chapter implants gene seed in less impressive candidates?

Meaning, is the selection criteria brutally difficult because it needs to be, and only the very pinnacle of humanity could handle it, or is it just that there is very finite amount of gene seed, so might as well use the best?

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Both. Sort of.
A lot of the selection process is physical tasks but equally important, if not more so, are the tasks that require willpower. The surgery to make someone into an Astartes is so invasive and makes so many alterations that a child from Baal with minor brain damage and some crippled limbs was selected after the Devastation to become an aspirant for the Chapter.
Especially with the Primaris advancements, it's more about which aspirants have a "Warrior Spirit" rather than being able to benchpress a tonne of bricks. The point of the trials is to pick the best of these aspirants and its rare that an unsuitable candidate will reach the gene-seed implantation. If they do, well they die in battle and their gene-seed is harvested for the next generation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/28 10:27:43


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Polonius wrote:
Is there anything in the lore that talks about what happens when a chapter implants gene seed in less impressive candidates?

Meaning, is the selection criteria brutally difficult because it needs to be, and only the very pinnacle of humanity could handle it, or is it just that there is very finite amount of gene seed, so might as well use the best?


IIRC, candidates that have washed out and become Chapter Serfs can have the first few implants(there's a short story featuring one who was relegated to a training facility that started implantation but was deemed ineligible for later implantation), so there's evidence of continuing tests throughout the process. There's also fluff about less than worthy candidates dying during the implantation process, so that's probably the most likely result.

So, I'd say both to the last question, buuuut...

As a caveat/counter-point, we know that Abby basically just jammed the geneseed he got from the Iron Warriors raid of Hydra Cordatus into as many slaves/servants as possible to rapid bulk his numbers and that mostly worked thanks to Warp BS.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
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SpaceCoast

When I read description of Space marine combat the first thing that comes to mind isn't so much special forces as it is Marine Corps. And as much as I love my brothers in arms on average they aren't known for being the brightest tools in the shed even if they're damn good at their job.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Platuan4th wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Is there anything in the lore that talks about what happens when a chapter implants gene seed in less impressive candidates?

Meaning, is the selection criteria brutally difficult because it needs to be, and only the very pinnacle of humanity could handle it, or is it just that there is very finite amount of gene seed, so might as well use the best?


IIRC, candidates that have washed out and become Chapter Serfs can have the first few implants(there's a short story featuring one who was relegated to a training facility that started implantation but was deemed ineligible for later implantation), so there's evidence of continuing tests throughout the process. There's also fluff about less than worthy candidates dying during the implantation process, so that's probably the most likely result.

So, I'd say both to the last question, buuuut...

As a caveat/counter-point, we know that Abby basically just jammed the geneseed he got from the Iron Warriors raid of Hydra Cordatus into as many slaves/servants as possible to rapid bulk his numbers and that mostly worked thanks to Warp BS.

Define "mostly". Was there any mention of the success rate? CSM are known for having a "survival of the fittest" mentality. I could definitely see Abby shoving that geneseed into all of those "candidates" and thinking "Those that survive are worthy. Those that don't? Meh.".
   
Made in gb
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The best I can glean is "a small percentage" but that's pretty vague and down to personal interpretation. I would say at most 15% of aspirants would be considered a small percentage.
Then again depending on how many aspirants there are "a small percentage" could be anything from 1 to 500 depending on how many pass the trials, survive to become Scouts, and then full Astartes. A Chapter like the Ultramarines seemed to replace its losses after Behemoth quite quickly but considering how many words they recruit from and the fact that they have specific training centres anyway, this isn't surprising.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tampa,FL USA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Is there anything in the lore that talks about what happens when a chapter implants gene seed in less impressive candidates?

Meaning, is the selection criteria brutally difficult because it needs to be, and only the very pinnacle of humanity could handle it, or is it just that there is very finite amount of gene seed, so might as well use the best?


IIRC, candidates that have washed out and become Chapter Serfs can have the first few implants(there's a short story featuring one who was relegated to a training facility that started implantation but was deemed ineligible for later implantation), so there's evidence of continuing tests throughout the process. There's also fluff about less than worthy candidates dying during the implantation process, so that's probably the most likely result.

So, I'd say both to the last question, buuuut...

As a caveat/counter-point, we know that Abby basically just jammed the geneseed he got from the Iron Warriors raid of Hydra Cordatus into as many slaves/servants as possible to rapid bulk his numbers and that mostly worked thanks to Warp BS.

Define "mostly". Was there any mention of the success rate? CSM are known for having a "survival of the fittest" mentality. I could definitely see Abby shoving that geneseed into all of those "candidates" and thinking "Those that survive are worthy. Those that don't? Meh.".


Most likely that's exactly his mentality. Either way, we know the results considering the absolutely massive amount of Black Legion that attacked Cadia and Macragge.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Gert wrote:The best I can glean is "a small percentage" but that's pretty vague and down to personal interpretation. I would say at most 15% of aspirants would be considered a small percentage.
Then again depending on how many aspirants there are "a small percentage" could be anything from 1 to 500 depending on how many pass the trials, survive to become Scouts, and then full Astartes. A Chapter like the Ultramarines seemed to replace its losses after Behemoth quite quickly but considering how many words they recruit from and the fact that they have specific training centres anyway, this isn't surprising.

Well, CSM aren't exactly as "careful" in the implantation process as Ultramarines would be, and the initiation rites are considerably more brutal. Of course I don't remember if the amount of geneseed that the Iron Warriors stole from Hydra Cordatus was ever specified. So it could have resulted in quite a few marines even with that low of a success rate.

Platuan4th wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Is there anything in the lore that talks about what happens when a chapter implants gene seed in less impressive candidates?

Meaning, is the selection criteria brutally difficult because it needs to be, and only the very pinnacle of humanity could handle it, or is it just that there is very finite amount of gene seed, so might as well use the best?


IIRC, candidates that have washed out and become Chapter Serfs can have the first few implants(there's a short story featuring one who was relegated to a training facility that started implantation but was deemed ineligible for later implantation), so there's evidence of continuing tests throughout the process. There's also fluff about less than worthy candidates dying during the implantation process, so that's probably the most likely result.

So, I'd say both to the last question, buuuut...

As a caveat/counter-point, we know that Abby basically just jammed the geneseed he got from the Iron Warriors raid of Hydra Cordatus into as many slaves/servants as possible to rapid bulk his numbers and that mostly worked thanks to Warp BS.

Define "mostly". Was there any mention of the success rate? CSM are known for having a "survival of the fittest" mentality. I could definitely see Abby shoving that geneseed into all of those "candidates" and thinking "Those that survive are worthy. Those that don't? Meh.".


Most likely that's exactly his mentality. Either way, we know the results considering the absolutely massive amount of Black Legion that attacked Cadia and Macragge.

The Black Legion was already the largest Legion thanks to Abaddon's policy of accepting strays from other Legions and Renegades. So those numbers aren't surprising. I'm sure the new Astartes helped though.
   
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I think that even with the portion given over to Abbadon, Honsou had plenty left over enough to incite Berossus and Toramino to join forces and declare war on him. Honsou's forces took a beating in that conflict but were bolstered by the stolen gene-seed but also Berossus's defected troops. Hydra Cordatus was however the secondary repository for Imperial Fists gene-seed, so realistically it could easily be enough to create a Chapters worth, if not more, of Space Marines.
   
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Philadelphia PA

 Gert wrote:
Both. Sort of.
A lot of the selection process is physical tasks but equally important, if not more so, are the tasks that require willpower. The surgery to make someone into an Astartes is so invasive and makes so many alterations that a child from Baal with minor brain damage and some crippled limbs was selected after the Devastation to become an aspirant for the Chapter.
Especially with the Primaris advancements, it's more about which aspirants have a "Warrior Spirit" rather than being able to benchpress a tonne of bricks. The point of the trials is to pick the best of these aspirants and its rare that an unsuitable candidate will reach the gene-seed implantation. If they do, well they die in battle and their gene-seed is harvested for the next generation.


I always figured aspirant testing was just a techno-primative shorthand for determining genetic compatibility with the marine implants.

Like instead of doing real science, and testing/tracking kids from birth, they just toss some pre-teens some swords and tell them to go fight the local mega-beast. Those that survive happen to have a higher portion of compatible subjects so the chapter thinks that somehow defeating the beasts is the "proof" of worthiness.

It also explains the rejection rate, since those sort of trials wouldn't weed out 100% of the incompatible ones.
   
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero






The Imperium is backwards but not primitive, even those Chapters like the Space Wolves and Emperor's Spears that actively recruit from barbarian clans still follow the scientific process of creating an Astartes. Many final tests for Aspirants before they become Scouts is indeed something along the lines of "Survive in the wilderness and get back to the Chapter Fortress" but prior to that there is education and indoctrination into the Chapter culture and history. Indeed many Chapters encourage their Aspirants to follow intellectual or artistic pursuit in order to help them maintain fragments of their humanity with Chapters like the Ultramarines and especially those of the Blood Angels lineage producing many great artists, poets and writers. An Aspirant doesn't need to be in the gym 24/7 pushing themselves to their limit because a lot of the physical aspects of being an Astartes come from genetic manipulation and biological or mechanical enhancements.
Being a failed Aspirant doesn't mean death 100% of the time, in fact I'd wager that it's more like 25% of failed Aspirants end up dead. Instead the rest either just reject the implants and become Chapter Serfs, crewmen on warships, or in the worst cases, Servitors. Chapters aren't going to waste trained and indoctrinated mortals when they can still serve a myriad of purposes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 01:15:18


 
   
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They follow the prescribed process. Not a scientific one.
Its rote and ritual, not discovery or learning.

Most serfs come from aspirants who failed the testing (though not the 'moral' or purity tests, those likely got axed), not implantation failures. There isn't really usable information on that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 04:04:00


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I suspect that Space Marines train recruits less along "X person is really smart" and more along the lines of "X person seems to like Y task".

Any space marine can be trained to do any task. They just focus them to what suits the individual and what they are drawn to. Sure, any space marine could be selected randomly and sent to Mars to become a Tech Marine and they'd probably do just fine, but its much easier to just send the Marine that has a passion or interest.

Most serfs come from aspirants who failed the testing (though not the 'moral' or purity tests, those likely got axed), not implantation failures. There isn't really usable information on that.


Yes, but its only because failing the implantation process is often fatal for the individual, but it seems common enough for failed aspirants to survive as well so its safe to say its a mixture. It really depends on which stage of the implants failed and what exactly went wrong.

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Voss wrote:
They follow the prescribed process. Not a scientific one.
Its rote and ritual, not discovery or learning.

There seems to have been a misunderstanding here, I'm not talking about the Scientific Method, I'm saying that the process of creating an Astartes is still grounded in science and not just "throw the Aspirant to the wolves and then stick organs in the survivors". Advanced genetic manipulation, surgical implantation and cognitive reorganisation all seem pretty scientific to me. Yes each Chapter has their rites and rituals but not when it comes to waiting to make sure the organs they grafted take hold before continuing the process.
I say the creation of a Space Marine is a scientific process because things like magic exist.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 11:31:31


 
   
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U.k

Jerram wrote:
When I read description of Space marine combat the first thing that comes to mind isn't so much special forces as it is Marine Corps. And as much as I love my brothers in arms on average they aren't known for being the brightest tools in the shed even if they're damn good at their job.


I am not saying that marines will be great thinkers or problem solvers. I think there will be a range, at one and the types who get promoted and become captains or tech marines, veterans, etc and then the types who will try to fix every problem with brute force and violence. And then everything in between. And then variety between chapters as well. The space sharks will want/need less thinkers than the ultramarines for example. That’s the beauty of marines, they are so buildable fluff wise as your dudes, you can have a chapter full of idiots who just punch everything or one full of philosophers and artists.
   
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Oh yeah, all about the punching!


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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Andykp wrote:
Jerram wrote:
When I read description of Space marine combat the first thing that comes to mind isn't so much special forces as it is Marine Corps. And as much as I love my brothers in arms on average they aren't known for being the brightest tools in the shed even if they're damn good at their job.


I am not saying that marines will be great thinkers or problem solvers. I think there will be a range, at one and the types who get promoted and become captains or tech marines, veterans, etc and then the types who will try to fix every problem with brute force and violence. And then everything in between. And then variety between chapters as well. The space sharks will want/need less thinkers than the ultramarines for example. That’s the beauty of marines, they are so buildable fluff wise as your dudes, you can have a chapter full of idiots who just punch everything or one full of philosophers and artists.


I thought space marines were supposed to be great thinkers, at least in the role they are trying to fill. Look at the dark angels, they have so many secrets buried in the rock and have carried out their own agenda for 10k years without anyone else finding out. This includes a network of agents and arcane knowledge. Someone in the organisation has got to be doing something clever to achieve that.
   
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Well yeah Astartes are smart but they aren't exactly Aristotle or Nietzsche. At most they're likely to be comparable to Sun Tzu or Napoleon with regards to ability towards warfare.
   
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Only one of which was successful in terms of land wars in Asia (which is a blunder that all intelligent men should avoid).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 21:26:37


Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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I don't know how much it has changed but originally space marines were portrayed as warrior monks, reading and writing poetry in their little downtime when not being mental ascetics and killing and purging etc.

I think they're probably smarter than the majority of the imperial population. But that doesn't mean much.

But I think it depends how you measure intelligence. People consider themselves well read and are still thick as a plank of wood covered in pig gak.

Common sense is a loftier goal than mere intelligence.


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Fun fact about the Dark Angels use of hypno-induction, the Chaplains plant codewords in every single Marine so they can take complete control of that Marine if needs be.
   
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 Gert wrote:
Fun fact about the Dark Angels use of hypno-induction, the Chaplains plant codewords in every single Marine so they can take complete control of that Marine if needs be.


See, very smart people
   
 
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