Competitive 40k Tier List (Goonhammer)

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**Tyel**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Here's that ratio for the rest of the field. Now look at Death Guard. They also had a 46% 6WWR, but their top table showings are poor. They had way more players than AdMech. So the army is a mid-table gatekeeper that struggles against the better armies, there are fewer experienced pilots, or a combination of both.

I feel the issue with DG is that its dependent on luck. Will your defenses hold up? That's a function of dice - but statistically over a whole tournament, you are just highly likely to have a game where everything just dies.

I guess in some ways that's silly - every faction depends on luck - but the difference is that if the dice aren't working, you can't (usually) try and strangle out wins by exploiting your speed and positioning.

By contrast the Tier 1 factions usually can. And their raw offense/defense stats (usually offense) can also just pop off.

**Eihnlazer**

If you run double patrols you can get 2 fully buffed hive guard units (i.e. +1 to hit, reroll to hit, exploding 6's). that gives you 36 shots a turn hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's, exploding on 6's.

All at str8 ap-2 Dd3 that ignore light cover and LoS.

Tossing in a third unit is just for the flex, but yes you could take a large amount of gaunts to clot up the board or a big bug instead.

**Daedalus81**

Ordana wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
How is GK's not S tier and DE is? they are 0.4% difference in winrates and GK. This is a little missleading IMO. While DE are strong for sure you can not say GK's are not their equal when data says they are.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-2021-warhammer-40k-end-of-year-meta-analysis/
I think GK's don't have the amount of #1 spots that DE managed to get. That could be a difference.

Yea consistently scoring 100 versus scoring 100 sometimes.

**wuestenfux**

GH considers the gap between Drukhari and Tier 1 to be a bit smaller.

Spoiler:

Its a pity that the dataslate for say Necrons didn't prevent them from improving their tier (4). I've already shelved them.

Spoiler:

**TangoTwoBravo**

I have a feeling that the Relic Contemptor has a nerf in-bound, perhaps through a change to the bodyguard mechanic that Space Marine Command Squads have. If they make it only affect Infantry and Bikers then those Character Dreadnoughts have to eat return fire. Would also reduce some of those "feels-bad" moments that come up.

**Sunny Side Up**

Yes and no. Character Contemptor Dreads would still get the regular old look-out-sir.

And as especially flyers are limited now, it probably wouldn't slow them too much.

**TangoTwoBravo**

By way of follow-up, Goonhammer have a Competitive Innovations article out regarding the first week of tournaments this year. https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-back-to-work-back-to-war/.

Drukhari, Thousand Sons, Sisters, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Adeptus Mechanicus (and even Necrons) all have placings, but there are lots of Tyranid Crusher Stampedes placing very well. Could be a matter of being the new list on the scene that folks have not prepared for, but interesting nonetheless.

**ERJAK**

It'll be funny to see that gap explode outward when the factions that require multiple chapter tactics souped together get demolished.

Sisters, Tsons, Orkz, and some Admech builds get the shaft while GK, IH, BT, DA, and Nids are totally unaffected.

Drukhari could technically see a big dropoff with the changes to patrols and soup rules but let's be real, they'll get some kind of 'we don't have to listen to you neener-neener-neener' rule to ignore those.

**Manchild 1984**

ERJAK wrote:
It'll be funny to see that gap explode outward when the factions that require multiple chapter tactics souped together get demolished.

Sisters, Tsons, Orkz, and some Admech builds get the shaft while GK, IH, BT, DA, and Nids are totally unaffected.

Drukhari could technically see a big dropoff with the changes to patrols and soup rules but let's be real, they'll get some kind of 'we don't have to listen to you neener-neener-neener' rule to ignore those.

Drukhari are good enough to play normal if they have to

**ERJAK**

Manchild 1984 wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
It'll be funny to see that gap explode outward when the factions that require multiple chapter tactics souped together get demolished.

Sisters, Tsons, Orkz, and some Admech builds get the shaft while GK, IH, BT, DA, and Nids are totally unaffected.

Drukhari could technically see a big dropoff with the changes to patrols and soup rules but let's be real, they'll get some kind of 'we don't have to listen to you neener-neener-neener' rule to ignore those.
Drukhari are good enough to play normal if they have to

That's even worse

**Bosskelot**

I imagine Drukhari will still be able to take Kabals/Cults/Covens together, because otherwise the army ceases to function. It will put a stop to Dark Techno + Artists of the Flesh combo together though.

**Ordana**

ERJAK wrote:
It'll be funny to see that gap explode outward when the factions that require multiple chapter tactics souped together get demolished.

Sisters, Tsons, Orkz, and some Admech builds get the shaft while GK, IH, BT, DA, and Nids are totally unaffected.

Drukhari could technically see a big dropoff with the changes to patrols and soup rules but let's be real, they'll get some kind of 'we don't have to listen to you neener-neener-neener' rule to ignore those.

Tsons will absolutely not care much about having to run a mono cult.

**Tyel**

I feel the tension is that the meta should start to include some heavier weapons - but you don't really want to versus DE true kin master race.

**ERJAK**

Ordana wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
It'll be funny to see that gap explode outward when the factions that require multiple chapter tactics souped together get demolished.

Sisters, Tsons, Orkz, and some Admech builds get the shaft while GK, IH, BT, DA, and Nids are totally unaffected.

Drukhari could technically see a big dropoff with the changes to patrols and soup rules but let's be real, they'll get some kind of 'we don't have to listen to you neener-neener-neener' rule to ignore those.
Tsons will absolutely not care much about having to run a mono cult.

Every winning Tsons I've seen has had multiple cults. They might not be as injured as Sisters, but it will affect them at the top end.

**TangoTwoBravo**

Bosskelot wrote:
I imagine Drukhari will still be able to take Kabals/Cults/Covens together, because otherwise the army ceases to function. It will put a stop to Dark Techno + Artists of the Flesh combo together though.

I imagine that this will be the case.

Orks, Sisters and Nids will be affected for sure.

Not that folks are playing much Astra Militarum competitively, but if the sub-faction rumour is true then perhaps Scions will need some sort of exception as well?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordana wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
It'll be funny to see that gap explode outward when the factions that require multiple chapter tactics souped together get demolished.

Sisters, Tsons, Orkz, and some Admech builds get the shaft while GK, IH, BT, DA, and Nids are totally unaffected.

Drukhari could technically see a big dropoff with the changes to patrols and soup rules but let's be real, they'll get some kind of 'we don't have to listen to you neener-neener-neener' rule to ignore those.
Tsons will absolutely not care much about having to run a mono cult.

The TSons lists in the article are not mono-cult. Doesn't meant that they wouldn't have placed as mono-cult, but interesting nonetheless.

**Jidmah**

Tyel wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Here's that ratio for the rest of the field. Now look at Death Guard. They also had a 46% 6WWR, but their top table showings are poor. They had way more players than AdMech. So the army is a mid-table gatekeeper that struggles against the better armies, there are fewer experienced pilots, or a combination of both.

I feel the issue with DG is that its dependent on luck. Will your defenses hold up? That's a function of dice - but statistically over a whole tournament, you are just highly likely to have a game where everything just dies.

I guess in some ways that's silly - every faction depends on luck - but the difference is that if the dice aren't working, you can't (usually) try and strangle out wins by exploiting your speed and positioning.

By contrast the Tier 1 factions usually can. And their raw offense/defense stats (usually offense) can also just pop off.

I haven't thought of it like that, but yes that's a fairly good description of how a series DG games string up. They are heavily relying on 4++ units and making two saves more or less during turn 1 and 2 can have a huge impact on winning the game, as it could easily make a difference of over 200+ points, completely changing how the game plays out.

**obsidianaura**

Daedalus81 wrote:
obsidianaura wrote:
Covenant wrote:
Space Wolves in the same tier as AdMech? How? What am I doing wrong?! XD

AdMech are garbage now GH nearly put them in tier 3, I think that's where they should have gone. The data shows they've gone a 60% win rate (obviously too high) to a 60% lose rate (also too high).

They has a 6 week win rate of 46% at year end, which isn't abysmal. What people fail to take into consideration is top players dropping the army for something more forgiving ( *cough* DE ).

Admech was 3% of the field and took 3% of top tables - a good ratio.
DE was 6% and 16% respectively - a ratio of 2.56.

Here's that ratio for the rest of the field. Now look at Death Guard. They also had a 46% 6WWR, but their top table showings are poor. They had way more players than AdMech. So the army is a mid-table gatekeeper that struggles against the better armies, there are fewer experienced pilots, or a combination of both.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
so silly that GH continues the dumb charade of pretending all the core codex: SM lists are dedicated, entirely separate armies.

Say, Goonhammer, what's the stats for Hive Fleets that aren't the one that just got all the strong competitive gak?

Oh, we dont have stats for that?

oh, itd be weird to track stats for that, as it would artificially make them appear weaker than maybe they actually are, because a player choosing to run a weaker subfaction would be a dedicated casual player of that subfaction, and would be more likely to go 0-5 in a tournament? Thus making the one competitive one appear artificially stronger, because youd be sorting only for the most competitive players of that faction?

Codex SM should be solidly mediocre middle of the road tier. Yet continuously we do this weird split thing holdover from the 6 months or so where theyw ere essentially the only faction, and SM builds simultaneously look stronger and weaker than they should.

I think part of the problem is that BCP doesn't consistently track fleets and it gets tough, because you can have multiple fleets where marines are less likely to mix.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Eihnlazer wrote:
Yeah they werent even talking about crusher stampede.

They were talking about 18 hive guard hitting on 2's.

Crusher stampede just solidifies them in A tier with a second winning build.

TBF, it doesn't seem like 18 HG is even the optimal way to run Nids; John Lennon won New Orleans with just 6. Hive Guard are expensive and there's diminishing returns IMO. Not to say HG with all the buffs are not overtuned at the moment.

Right - there's ONE unit that goes uber and the rest are just padding.

6 weeks up to year end would include the prenerf dataslate games wouldn't it? I think the balance slate came out second week of november.

Anyway plenty of players played last week and Admech are at a 33% winrate for the week and a 43% win rate over 6 weeks. So hopefully we'll see them reduce the points increase. For me just reducing the Skitarii points increases by 50% from what they were would be about right.