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Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm, I need to add one more point as well. Once a world has been converted into chaos. Its not so easy to "reclaim" it. The government as fallen, all loyalist soldiers are likely dead. Half or more of the population has likely turned to worship of chaos, and the other half are subsued. There are likely daemons running rampart in the streets and other chaos forces running around killing and doing chaos things.

And some of the chaos forces will stay on in the world. Because they are chaotic that way, they want to loot and murder more. Or maybe they lost their ride in space when they assaulted that world.

So, if there is a black crusade and it subjugates and converts many many worlds and systems into chaos. Those systems and worlds stay chaos controlled until the Imperium has launched a crusade to reclaim it.

A loyalist world conquered by Chaos doesn't just automatically revert back into loyalist by itself. In fact, that's why we have such a thing as Exterminatus by the loyalist forces.


Virus bomb it, import a new population. They’ve done it before, they’ll do it again.

Plus, Chaos kind of struggles to hold planets. Even if an entire system falls, they again lack the infrastructure to support it properly. That system is instantly isolated, down only to the resources it commands within itself.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





There's also something in understanding Abaddon. From one of GW's writers:


“Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.”

It sums up Abaddon. Horus allowed himself to be used by Chaos – Horus is the Chaos Powers’ dupe to get back at the Emperor. Abaddon will never let this happen. He will never allow himself to be a Pawn of Chaos. Simply surviving without choosing one as a patron is a massive achievement. Never succumbing to the temptation of becoming a daemon prince is a second. Seriously, Abaddon is so driven he’d rather battle and scrape and bite and claw his way up to achieve his goals on his own terms than achieve immortality and virtually limitless power, because the alternative is to open the slightest chink in his independence that the Chaos Gods will exploit.

If Horus was the vessel that all of the Gods poured their power into (right up until they abandoned him at the end), then Abbadon has become the vessel that the gods want to have for themselves but haven’t been able to claim. They’ve all offered him a chance to be their regent, to rule in their name, and he has turned them all down, playing them off each other. He is the New Emperor in a way that Horus never was or would have been. Abaddon has, through sheer force of will and dominance, made himself more than a pawn, he has made himself kingmaker. If he were to choose one god to serve, if he dedicated the Black Legion to a single power in his name, that God would crush his rivals almost to the point of victory.

Almost.

Because Chaos can never win against itself, of course, and Abaddon has seen the truth of this. He knows that Chaos is a process, a state, not a goal, and the moment anyone surrenders to the journey and forgets the destination is the moment their worldly ambitions are forgotten and their spirit becomes simply a part of the Chaos Powers. Abaddon is utterly relentless in his pursuit of what he wants – whatever that may actually be. Revenge on the Emperor? Too petty. Vengeance for Horus? Too sentimental. Power? Yes. What kind of power? Mortal power. He could have all the immortal power he can handle if he but asks for it, but that is not what drives him. He sees the Primarchs disappear, fade, die or simply not care anymore and he understands that only a man can really rule other men. Abaddon doesn’t want to destroy the Imperium, he wants to succeed where Horus failed. He wants to be Emperor and have Mankind bow beneath his rule.

His rule, not the rule of the Chaos gods.

Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.

It is the Office Politics of Hell. Literally… One of the beliefs surrounding Satan in many Christian theologies is that his defiance of God was his refusal to bow to Man when they were created. In refusing to submit to the rule of mortals, Abaddon carries this analogy perfectly – the Legiones Astartes were created by a god and were never meant to be corralled and curtailed by purely mortal ambitions. As Angels they have a higher purpose – and once had a higher regard in the eyes of their creator, who shunned them.

Quite how much of this Abaddon realises when Horus fails and how much he learns over the next ten thousand years (or three days, depending on warp time) is narratively elastic…

Bearing in mind the warp/ real interface, being the bearer of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not just having a shiny star of Chaos imprinted in one’s forehead. It is, when the Chaos gods are bestowing their blessing/ energy, to be the centre of a blazing star, to be surrounded by a coil of ever-replenshing Chaos energy, heralded by choirs of daemons of all powers, suffused with the essence of the four great Chaos Gods. To each worshipper and follower he appears different (much like the Emperor…). He is a schemer, a warrior, a self-centred iconoclast and a survivor.

But there are the times, after the effort, the glory, of being the conduit of so much power, when he teeters on the precipice of doubt, madness and physical corruption. He stands between mortals and immortals, his ambitions far beyond the understanding of the first, yet incomprehensibly alien to the second; constantly he is failed by the inherent weaknesses of both.

His enemies circle, material and immaterial, sensing potential weakness. His allies start to disappear. For a while the Chaos Powers are disinterested, choosing to split, becoming self-serving once more, raising up their champions, sometimes alone, sometimes together, hoping that these mortals will rival Abaddon. Yet they never do.

And he wonders if it is vanity. He wonders if he is deserving. He wonders if what he wants is possible.

And then the Powers come back, trying once more to win him to their cause, taunting, threatening, cajoling and coercing Abaddon to become theirs and theirs alone. And he listens, and he wonders. And always, from somewhere deep in his soul, from the darkest yet strongest place in his mind, the answer comes back, hesitant but growing louder with every beat of his twin hearts.

Yes.

Yes, one day it will all be yours.

And he starts the struggle again. The Long War continues.

- 10,000 pts CSM  
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Well, I feel that its not fair to say that chaos can never hold ground. Everything within the eye of terror is held by Chaos forces, and despite the imperium launching crusades into it before, the area within remains firmly in chaos control.

And what of all the Orc worlds held by orcs. And what of all the necron systems held by necrons. And indeed, what about all the Tau worlds and systems held by Tau.

The imperium is in a vast galaxy and struggles to hold on to what it has because it is spread too thin. For every fortress world like Cadia (last time), there are dozens of other worlds which are lightly defended.

For all the strongly held imperium system out there, there will be other systems or planets that are held by Orcs, Tau, Necrons, Claimed by elves as Crone Worlds, sucked dry by Tyranids, and indeed, held by Chaos as well.

Chaos forces can indeed hold ground. I feel that it is not very fair to say Chaos can never hold ground. Chaos lords have expanded their influence and reach to entire systems before.

It is written that many Chaos Knights often lord it over the planet or even the system they are in. Huron the Tyrant at his peak also had control over the entire Badab sector. and even now, based on lore, his piratical galactic empire within the Maelstorm is as large as the eye of terror.
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






But….they generally can’t, outside of existing warp rifts.

Plus, any system truly worth taking is going to have fairly significant defences, so they largely need to rely on strong Cult activity to help mitigate. Even with that, the system puts up a fight, and you take damage/losses.

Yes The Imperium is spread thin. But they still outnumber Chaos by orders of magnitude. Hence why Chaos tends toward raiding and piratical actions. Smash and grab, then leg it - because they can by no means resist retribution.

And even when it is a heavily orchestrated campaign, such as Warzone Charadon? They’re planned around a lack of Imperium reinforcements, and nobody wandering off on their own. Soon as both of those things happened, even Tyhpus’ forces were hard pressed, and the Imperium started to get its feet under it.

Make no mistake. Such well planned, resourced and strategised actions are very much the exception, not the norm.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





The word chaos is being used way too broadly here, covering a number of different groups with different goals and agendas. Followers of chaos gods or cults may seek to take over planets and reign as dictator, and may seek to take ground from the imperium in their own war. But Chaos, as in the gods, don’t really care for territory and empire building, these are just methods used by their followers to create chaos in the materium. Once a planets population has turned itself over to chaos, the chaos will only spread. Even if that is just the imperium bombing the planet from orbit, khorne will be happy.

Abbadon may seek to overthrow and replace the imperium but Choas want Chaos where there is currently order. That’s why they hate the emperor, because he is the greatest manifestation of order and he was trying to bring order to the galaxy by killing all Xenos and setting up a human empire.

But now chaos thrives because over and over again there is war, death, excess and deception and every attempt to do something about it just throws fuel on the fire
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The forces of Chaos generally try not to hold realspace territory unless they can absolutely secure it. It's not just the Imperium that's out there to threaten any holdings a Chaos war leader may have.
A couple of examples include:
Tsagualsa - The world chosen by Konrad Curze as the new home of the Night Lords. After Curze was assassinated, the Ultramarines and their Successors attacked in their entirety to try and wipe out the Night Lords.
Forgefane - An Iron Warriors Fortress World that was attacked by the Tyranids and eventually consumed after its walls were breached by tunneling organisms.
The Sabbat Worlds - An entire sector of space held by the forces of Chaos that were slowly liberated by the Imperium during the Sabbat Worlds Crusade.
Castellax - An Iron Warriors Fortress World that was invaded by the Orks and lost to them after a crushing defeat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/13 20:04:42


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Also demons can only exist in the materium for a limited period of time , therefore chaos’s presence is dependent on chaos followers rather than beasts of chaos
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




Chaos now has some realspace/warpspace holdings in the Plague Stars. I suspect GW was/is going for each major Chaos god carving out its own little realm.

As for fully realspace holdings, from what I remember the FFG RPG stuff seemed to show Port Royal-like holdings as an example of Chaos followers' holdings. Hives of scum and villainy in areas that are hidden or off the beaten track enough that the Imperium cannot easily go after them.

The BFG sources showed Chaos transport ships and crews to be ill maintained and low quality, and said this reflected how such roles were viewed as low standing and offering little opportunities for glory or winning the favor of the gods. However such lack of emphasis on logistics also shows why Chaos forces have trouble with constructing multi-world empires. The nature of Chaos, and the need for their Champions to keep on doing extreme things to win favor, means they are going to be more reavers and pillagers than just sitting there quietly doing "boring" things like fiddling with optimizing logistic supply chains.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 00:59:46


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

There is also the question of scale. Even if a warlord managed to conquer and reasonably hold a dozen worlds, compared to all of 40k that is nothing. Its kinda the equivalent of San Marino or Monaco. Yes, its technically a real independent country, but the smallest 5 countries in the world have a combined total landmass smaller than my great grandparents ranch in Montana.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/14 07:13:38


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

I mean if you can hop into reality, kill some people and destroy an enemy world and then bugger off into magic fantasy daemon land instead of dealing with logistics and supplies, you're gonna. As others have said, Chaos doesn't necessarily want to wipe out the imperium because then there wouldn't be any targets.

Anyway, surely the Rift is a huge territory gain for chaos forces?

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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, with the Rift splitting the entire galaxy in half and isolating half of it from the Emperor's light, it opens the way for large swathes of space and worlds to fall into chaos. And from those, Abaddon can draw from and mass an even bigger army for his current crusade.

And half isn't 100%, that's barely 50%. There are plenty of humans left for chaos to have fun with even if half fall into chaos.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






But again, its not just the Imperium out there. The Tyranids are still a huge threat and a brand new Hive Fleet specifically designed to combat Daemons was made post-Rift. There's also the massive resurgence of the Necrons with the return of the Silent King.
The T'au have also finally established a presence in the northern galaxy near the Imperium Nihilus and many worlds would gladly join the Empire rather than be consumed, enslaved or exterminated.
Plus, any worlds caught in the Rift have a huge chance of being utterly useless as well. The Warp would pollute them, turning them into parodies of their former selves with many becoming Daemon worlds in short order. Any lifeforms would be destroyed from the sudden and violent entry into Warp space.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/16 01:36:17


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

There's even the potential that one of GW's ideas with the rift splitting the Imperium will allow them to have a segment of space that is less well enforced than the main Imperium. Somewhere where other races could get their heads up like Tau have. One downside that 40K has which really shows right now when compared to AoS is that 40K is very restrictive on creative freedom.

Right now that's not too bad, Eldar need a bit update and there's a few other forces in "need" of updates as well here and there. But eventually at the speed GW is going they will start to run out; and you can only go "wide" so far with armies before you add redundant things or start invalidating older models.

So a "wild" region of space where other Xenos can rise up, conquering lands back from the Imperium, could well be one avenue they could go down. It might even bypass the old idea of Tau being a Xenos Allied army.

A Blog in Miniature

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Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight




Semper wrote:
There's also something in understanding Abaddon. From one of GW's writers:


“Horus was weak. Horus was a fool.”

It sums up Abaddon. Horus allowed himself to be used by Chaos – Horus is the Chaos Powers’ dupe to get back at the Emperor. Abaddon will never let this happen. He will never allow himself to be a Pawn of Chaos. Simply surviving without choosing one as a patron is a massive achievement. Never succumbing to the temptation of becoming a daemon prince is a second. Seriously, Abaddon is so driven he’d rather battle and scrape and bite and claw his way up to achieve his goals on his own terms than achieve immortality and virtually limitless power, because the alternative is to open the slightest chink in his independence that the Chaos Gods will exploit.

If Horus was the vessel that all of the Gods poured their power into (right up until they abandoned him at the end), then Abbadon has become the vessel that the gods want to have for themselves but haven’t been able to claim. They’ve all offered him a chance to be their regent, to rule in their name, and he has turned them all down, playing them off each other. He is the New Emperor in a way that Horus never was or would have been. Abaddon has, through sheer force of will and dominance, made himself more than a pawn, he has made himself kingmaker. If he were to choose one god to serve, if he dedicated the Black Legion to a single power in his name, that God would crush his rivals almost to the point of victory.

Almost.

Because Chaos can never win against itself, of course, and Abaddon has seen the truth of this. He knows that Chaos is a process, a state, not a goal, and the moment anyone surrenders to the journey and forgets the destination is the moment their worldly ambitions are forgotten and their spirit becomes simply a part of the Chaos Powers. Abaddon is utterly relentless in his pursuit of what he wants – whatever that may actually be. Revenge on the Emperor? Too petty. Vengeance for Horus? Too sentimental. Power? Yes. What kind of power? Mortal power. He could have all the immortal power he can handle if he but asks for it, but that is not what drives him. He sees the Primarchs disappear, fade, die or simply not care anymore and he understands that only a man can really rule other men. Abaddon doesn’t want to destroy the Imperium, he wants to succeed where Horus failed. He wants to be Emperor and have Mankind bow beneath his rule.

His rule, not the rule of the Chaos gods.

Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.

It is the Office Politics of Hell. Literally… One of the beliefs surrounding Satan in many Christian theologies is that his defiance of God was his refusal to bow to Man when they were created. In refusing to submit to the rule of mortals, Abaddon carries this analogy perfectly – the Legiones Astartes were created by a god and were never meant to be corralled and curtailed by purely mortal ambitions. As Angels they have a higher purpose – and once had a higher regard in the eyes of their creator, who shunned them.

Quite how much of this Abaddon realises when Horus fails and how much he learns over the next ten thousand years (or three days, depending on warp time) is narratively elastic…

Bearing in mind the warp/ real interface, being the bearer of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not just having a shiny star of Chaos imprinted in one’s forehead. It is, when the Chaos gods are bestowing their blessing/ energy, to be the centre of a blazing star, to be surrounded by a coil of ever-replenshing Chaos energy, heralded by choirs of daemons of all powers, suffused with the essence of the four great Chaos Gods. To each worshipper and follower he appears different (much like the Emperor…). He is a schemer, a warrior, a self-centred iconoclast and a survivor.

But there are the times, after the effort, the glory, of being the conduit of so much power, when he teeters on the precipice of doubt, madness and physical corruption. He stands between mortals and immortals, his ambitions far beyond the understanding of the first, yet incomprehensibly alien to the second; constantly he is failed by the inherent weaknesses of both.

His enemies circle, material and immaterial, sensing potential weakness. His allies start to disappear. For a while the Chaos Powers are disinterested, choosing to split, becoming self-serving once more, raising up their champions, sometimes alone, sometimes together, hoping that these mortals will rival Abaddon. Yet they never do.

And he wonders if it is vanity. He wonders if he is deserving. He wonders if what he wants is possible.

And then the Powers come back, trying once more to win him to their cause, taunting, threatening, cajoling and coercing Abaddon to become theirs and theirs alone. And he listens, and he wonders. And always, from somewhere deep in his soul, from the darkest yet strongest place in his mind, the answer comes back, hesitant but growing louder with every beat of his twin hearts.

Yes.

Yes, one day it will all be yours.

And he starts the struggle again. The Long War continues.


That was an amazing read! I see Abbadon is a new light now

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
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Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
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Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yes, I think the defining trait in Abaddon is that he refuses to bow or swear allegiance to any one particular chaos god. And he has achieved much despite not having to do that. Again though, I still think GW undersells Abaddon because they often shove the traitor legions into the "punching bag for the space marines" trope.

Logically speaking, a person of Abaddon's quality, who have demonstrated the ability to amass and lead mass armies and crusades and bring together the absolute chaos that is the chaos forces together, should have achieved far far more given he had thousands of years to do it.

I mean, the great leaders of old, Alexander the Great, the Qin Shi Huang Emperor, Napolean carved out a huge empire within twenty years. Imagine if Abaddon is a person like them (I would likely rate him higher than any of our world's past tyrants and war leaders), what should he have achieved in thousands of years.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Yeah and all of their empires collapsed. Now imagine every single one of those but add in every one of your allies trying to kill each other and you at every given opportunity, your powerful patrons also trying to screw you and each other over all the time, no support from any outside parties because literally everybody hates you and then the random chance that your entire effort might just not show up because the place you are forced to travel through decided to spit you out 100 years too late and 10 million miles off course. That's what Abbadon is dealing with.
Oh and throw in the fact that your main opponent can hold off you, all your mates, the raging masses of Orks, the limitless advance of the Tyranids, the interfering Aeldari, the awakening Necrons, the growing T'au and its own self defeating nature without seemingly breaking a sweat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 01:26:04


 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Yeah and all of their empires collapsed. Now imagine every single one of those but add in every one of your allies trying to kill each other and you at every given opportunity, your powerful patrons also trying to screw you and each other over all the time, no support from any outside parties because literally everybody hates you and then the random chance that your entire effort might just not show up because the place you are forced to travel through decided to spit you out 100 years too late and 10 million miles off course. That's what Abbadon is dealing with.
Oh and throw in the fact that your main opponent can hold off you, all your mates, the raging masses of Orks, the limitless advance of the Tyranids, the interfering Aeldari, the awakening Necrons, the growing T'au and its own self defeating nature without seemingly breaking a sweat.


Every single tyrant or war leader in history had to deal with the similar sort of things. Its not like they existed in a vacumn with no other powerful empires or no court intrigue or internal power factions and such to contend with. And logistics is something they had to deal with as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/27 01:54:00


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Yeah and all of their empires collapsed. Now imagine every single one of those but add in every one of your allies trying to kill each other and you at every given opportunity, your powerful patrons also trying to screw you and each other over all the time, no support from any outside parties because literally everybody hates you and then the random chance that your entire effort might just not show up because the place you are forced to travel through decided to spit you out 100 years too late and 10 million miles off course. That's what Abbadon is dealing with.
Oh and throw in the fact that your main opponent can hold off you, all your mates, the raging masses of Orks, the limitless advance of the Tyranids, the interfering Aeldari, the awakening Necrons, the growing T'au and its own self defeating nature without seemingly breaking a sweat.


Every single tyrant or war leader in history had to deal with the similar sort of things. Its not like they existed in a vacumn with no other powerful empires or no court intrigue or internal power factions and such to contend with. And logistics is something they had to deal with as well.


Yeah, but its definitely on steroids what Abaddon has to deal with. Plus, the issue of time not flowing equally in real space and the warp is not helping him. He didn't have 10,000 years, he's had maybe a tenth of that from his perspective. But, even if he did have 10k years, we are dealing with individuals who have skewed perceptions of the flow of time. When you are immortal your perception of time is going to be very different. And by extension so will your plans. Likewise, since all of your subordinates are also immortal and will have a similar warping of their own perception of reality, now everybody under you is in a position to act on their aspirations.

Make all of Alexandar's buddies and minions immortal demi-gods, and even if Alexandar is also an immortal demi-god he's going to have a bear of a time holding their attention for more than a few centuries at a time.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
 
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