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Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






Yeah, me too. I just found it hard to sympathize with the Quarians after the stunt they pulled there. And after all the warnings they got not to attack the Geth and the way they went about it when they did part of me just wanted to say "you brought that upon yourself, now deal with it." But of course I too tried to save both species.

By the way the fact that if you mediate between both the Geth offer to coexist on their homeworld since they as AI species don't need the planet but just the Dyson Sphere (that the Quarians just destroyed) raises the question if the Quarians ever tried to negotiate a peace before they were forced to do so by the threat of annihilation

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/22 10:00:39


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dorset

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Yeah, me too. I just found it hard to sympathize with the Quarians after the stunt they pulled there. And after all the warnings they got not to attack the Geth and the way they went about it when they did part of me just wanted to say "you brought that upon yourself, now deal with it." But of course I too tried to save both species.

By the way the fact that if you mediate between both the Geth offer to coexist on their homeworld since they as AI species don't need the planet but just the Dyson Sphere (that the Quarians just destroyed) raises the question if the Quarians ever tried to negotiate a peace before they were forced to do so by the threat of annihilation


quite likely not. ive not played the third game, but my understanding of the conflict form the 2nd one (as soon as we can hear the other side of the argument) is that as soon as they realised the Geth were becoming sentient, they had a full "the AI will go rogue for all the crap we've done to it in the past!" panic attack and tried to shut them down before that happened, and failed, leading to the war....which was one the major factors in the Reapers deciding to swing back for another clense.....

yhea, good job, there, bro.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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South East London

The Chigs in Space Above and Beyond.

Basically, Earth started it.....

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 LordofHats wrote:
Honestly both of the Incredibles movies have this really bad. Like so bad. The second movie even more so than the first. Like, the bad guys are bad guys but from a 'reasons' level both Syndrome and Screenslaver had very good points about everything wrong with superheroes and the world of superheroes. Things that both movies bring up and then just kind of gloss over with nary a care because I guess the moral of the films is that might makes right feth those guys we have power and we do what we want or something. Honestly, I think both these films are actually really fethed up as kids movies. They teach all the wrong lessons while pretending to be wholesome family films.


The Incredibles films are in a weird place because, as far as I can tell, there's never been any super-powered villains in their world (All four villains we see in the films are tech-based, and there appears to be no means of dealing with anyone "unusual" as the polices plan for the Underminer was to just let him get away). Having powers just seems to automatically make you "A good guy".

   
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St. Louis

 aku-chan wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
Honestly both of the Incredibles movies have this really bad. Like so bad. The second movie even more so than the first. Like, the bad guys are bad guys but from a 'reasons' level both Syndrome and Screenslaver had very good points about everything wrong with superheroes and the world of superheroes. Things that both movies bring up and then just kind of gloss over with nary a care because I guess the moral of the films is that might makes right feth those guys we have power and we do what we want or something. Honestly, I think both these films are actually really fethed up as kids movies. They teach all the wrong lessons while pretending to be wholesome family films.


The Incredibles films are in a weird place because, as far as I can tell, there's never been any super-powered villains in their world (All four villains we see in the films are tech-based, and there appears to be no means of dealing with anyone "unusual" as the polices plan for the Underminer was to just let him get away). Having powers just seems to automatically make you "A good guy".

TIL Incredibles is the same world as The Boys.
   
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USA

It's more like The Boys if The Boys was in completely denial of all the obviously fethed up aspects of its setting and dressed up Homelander like he really was a super great guy and could do no wrong even when there's obviously something very very wrong.

And if that is a weird image then yes. That's exactly what I'm getting at about The Incredibles. The entire story is set in a very bizarre world where anyone who thinks there's something wrong with it is automatically evil and the good guys are just goofy family types who do no wrongs.

   
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Terrifying Doombull




 LordofHats wrote:
It's more like The Boys if The Boys was in completely denial of all the obviously fethed up aspects of its setting and dressed up Homelander like he really was a super great guy and could do no wrong even when there's obviously something very very wrong.

And if that is a weird image then yes. That's exactly what I'm getting at about The Incredibles. The entire story is set in a very bizarre world where anyone who thinks there's something wrong with it is automatically evil and the good guys are just goofy family types who do no wrongs.


I mean, at the end, sure. The early and middle parts of the first movie paint Mr Incredible as a real piece of work (anger issues, potential infidelity), and the kids as weirdos & problems. And that's not just to the audience, its to the employer and school and what-have-you.
Officially becoming superheroes again (or for the first time for the kids) makes that all go away, I'll grant you, but the basic premise (being in basically witness protection for being Supers) and Mr I's downward journey doesn't paint a picture of a blindly accepting world.

Can't speak to the 2nd though, didn't see it as it seemed... hamfisted about the obvious villain and not picking up any real new beats.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/23 01:22:03


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Monticello, IN

AndrewGPaul wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The future is disco; I’d sponsor their entry to the United Federation of Planets. I’d sponsor it hard.

Anyway…

Walter Peck from Ghostbusters. He had a point, and we should all be glad he was as determined as he was to make sure these secretive paranormalists were not actually harming NYC with their unlicensed nuclear accelerators.


Walter Peck worked for the EPA, not the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and decided to shut down the containment facility against all the advice from everyone else onsite - including the electrician. If he'd turned up and said "we're investigating this new business for potential hazards; here's a court order for your records and witness statements", that's one thing. Instead, he turns up, insults the proprietor and threatens to shut them down for no reason.

I'll pick the inhabitants of almost any dungeon in a D&D campaign - all those goblins, kobolds, bugbear or whatnot, getting on with their lives when a load of murderous thugs break in and slaughter them all.

And in a similar vein to native Americans in westerns, the North Vietnamese in 'nam films.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Soren in Star Trek Generations. Surely it would have been easier for everyone concerned if, after discovering what he wants, they called him up and offered to just fly him into the ... thingy instead of trying to prevent him and getting Kirk killed and the Enterprise destroyed.



In movie they mentioned the fact that any ship getting close to the energy ribbon was severely damaged or destroyed. I'm thinking stuck on an asteroid flung into the path via tractor beam would have solved it.



Also, Magneto. Magneto was right.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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Voss wrote:
Officially becoming superheroes again (or for the first time for the kids) makes that all go away, I'll grant you, but the basic premise (being in basically witness protection for being Supers) and Mr I's downward journey doesn't paint a picture of a blindly accepting world.


Becoming heroes again basically comes with zero ill consequences in the first film, so I'd say it definitely paints that picture and the sequel makes it even worse. The whole 'super heroes are illegal' thing is kind of a paper thin rouse for the plot. Other than existing for dramatic tension, it comes to essentially nothing but that's just my point again. The Incredibles has an incredibly ill-defined world and message about it, and the villains are ironically the only people who seem to recognize that the world they live in is a chaotic mess. That's how they kind of had a point.

Can't speak to the 2nd though, didn't see it as it seemed... hamfisted about the obvious villain and not picking up any real new beats.


It was mostly just a rehash of the first one, but way more blatant in the message seems kind of messed up department.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 04:15:47


   
Made in us
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 LordofHats wrote:
Voss wrote:
Officially becoming superheroes again (or for the first time for the kids) makes that all go away, I'll grant you, but the basic premise (being in basically witness protection for being Supers) and Mr I's downward journey doesn't paint a picture of a blindly accepting world.


Becoming heroes again basically comes with zero ill consequences in the first film, so I'd say it definitely paints that picture and the sequel makes it even worse. The whole 'super heroes are illegal' thing is kind of a paper thin rouse for the plot. Other than existing for dramatic tension, it comes to essentially nothing but that's just my point again. The Incredibles has an incredibly ill-defined world and message about it, and the villains are ironically the only people who seem to recognize that the world they live in is a chaotic mess. That's how they kind of had a point.


Why would it have ill consequences though? They... saved themselves from being horribly murdered. That's not exactly something punishable. Then they show up to stop an actual threat to the city? Hurrah?
As for the 'paper thin ruse,' it... seemed to be working, and the world wasn't particularly a chaotic mess. Maybe I just haven't seen it in a long time, but it seemed like a pretty tame version of Marvel or DC where everyone had quietly retired and not much was going on.

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Voss wrote:
Why would it have ill consequences though? They... saved themselves from being horribly murdered. That's not exactly something punishable. Then they show up to stop an actual threat to the city? Hurrah?


Yeah, it's almost like the idea that you can ban superheroes is kind of absurd, which makes one wonder why the pretense is even there.

As for the 'paper thin ruse,' it... seemed to be working, and the world wasn't particularly a chaotic mess.


Except for the five seconds flat it takes for super villains to start coming out of the woodwork for superheroes to fight... who apparently weren't a problem anyone needed superheroes to solve while they were banned? And the zero meaningful consequences the heroes pay for breaking the ban.

Maybe I just haven't seen it in a long time, but it seemed like a pretty tame version of Marvel or DC where everyone had quietly retired and not much was going on.


You're kind of overthinking a setting that no real thought was put into. The Incredibles plays on all the conventional superhero tropes and pops out some jokes from them, but bother to look around and the setting makes very little sense. It's all just a bunch of contradictions that set up some initial drama for the plot to run with. Except if you pay attention to the villains of both movies. The villains seemed to be the only ones who realized what was really going on and how little sense everything made. The second movie has it especially bad, where Screensaver's criticisms are mostly correct and absolutely no one comments about it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/23 04:47:56


   
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dorset

 Just Tony wrote:




Also, Magneto. Magneto was right.


he might be right, but his actions and attitudes are part of the reason he's right. Hes convinced that it will become a mutant vs normal race war...so he repeatedly attempts to start mutant vs normal race wars, thus becoming the very thing the that drives the normal's fear of mutants.......


is professor X unrealistic in his hopes for peace between mutant and normal? maybe, but at least he is trying the peaceful route rather than jumping straight to the genocide button.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
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Leicester

 Just Tony wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Soren in Star Trek Generations. Surely it would have been easier for everyone concerned if, after discovering what he wants, they called him up and offered to just fly him into the ... thingy instead of trying to prevent him and getting Kirk killed and the Enterprise destroyed.


In movie they mentioned the fact that any ship getting close to the energy ribbon was severely damaged or destroyed. I'm thinking stuck on an asteroid flung into the path via tractor beam would have solved it.


Yes, Soren says that he’s spent the intervening 200 years exploring every way of getting back into the rift and that his plan is the only way. Now a) he’s an unreliable narrator and we don’t know if that’s true and b) ultimately it’s a selfish goal. He’s not doing it to open up the Nexus to other people or help anyone else. He’s willing to sacrifice billions of lives just to ease his own pain. So he doesn’t have too much of a point as far as I’m concerned.

 Just Tony wrote:

Also, Magneto. Magneto was right.


The beauty of Magneto as a character (and Killmonger in Black Panther), is that he is both right and wrong; I think they see the problems in the world far more clearly than the heroes and understand the dark side of humanity that drives those problems better too, but ultimately they choose to take extreme, evil actions to try and address those problems.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Black Panther is a very interesting film to me because ultimately the hero does exactly what the villain was planning to do, just in a more humane way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 09:11:21


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 Zed wrote:
*All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
 
   
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Leader of the Sept







Hmm. Not sure the two have the same goal in mind. Killmonger wanted to redress old/existing wrongs and install a new world order through violence and conquest. New boss just like the old boss, but now with vibranium weapons.

I felt that T’Challa was more looking for equality through education and uplift from the bottom. I haven’t read the comics, does anyone know if Wakanda ever goes in to the peacekeeping/enforcement side? We see them at the start of black panther interfering with violent oppressors.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 Jadenim wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Soren in Star Trek Generations. Surely it would have been easier for everyone concerned if, after discovering what he wants, they called him up and offered to just fly him into the ... thingy instead of trying to prevent him and getting Kirk killed and the Enterprise destroyed.


In movie they mentioned the fact that any ship getting close to the energy ribbon was severely damaged or destroyed. I'm thinking stuck on an asteroid flung into the path via tractor beam would have solved it.


Yes, Soren says that he’s spent the intervening 200 years exploring every way of getting back into the rift and that his plan is the only way. Now a) he’s an unreliable narrator and we don’t know if that’s true and b) ultimately it’s a selfish goal. He’s not doing it to open up the Nexus to other people or help anyone else. He’s willing to sacrifice billions of lives just to ease his own pain. So he doesn’t have too much of a point as far as I’m concerned.

 Just Tony wrote:

Also, Magneto. Magneto was right.


The beauty of Magneto as a character (and Killmonger in Black Panther), is that he is both right and wrong; I think they see the problems in the world far more clearly than the heroes and understand the dark side of humanity that drives those problems better too, but ultimately they choose to take extreme, evil actions to try and address those problems.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Black Panther is a very interesting film to me because ultimately the hero does exactly what the villain was planning to do, just in a more humane way.


I was referring to Data stating the line about ship inviability.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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 Flinty wrote:
Hmm. Not sure the two have the same goal in mind. Killmonger wanted to redress old/existing wrongs and install a new world order through violence and conquest. New boss just like the old boss, but now with vibranium weapons.

I felt that T’Challa was more looking for equality through education and uplift from the bottom. I haven’t read the comics, does anyone know if Wakanda ever goes in to the peacekeeping/enforcement side? We see them at the start of black panther interfering with violent oppressors.


I think the point simply was that Killmonger had a point, one that T'Challa was confronted with during their conflict, accepted, and decided to do something about. Wakanda could be doing more rather than hiding from the world. A villain having a point isn't the same thing as 'the villain was right about everything.'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 14:33:36


   
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 LordofHats wrote:
Voss wrote:
Why would it have ill consequences though? They... saved themselves from being horribly murdered. That's not exactly something punishable. Then they show up to stop an actual threat to the city? Hurrah?


Yeah, it's almost like the idea that you can ban superheroes is kind of absurd, which makes one wonder why the pretense is even there.

You somehow took that almost exactly opposite of what I meant. They aren't breaking any bans by refusing to die on a private island far away from the public eye.
The pretense is there because its a fun movie quietly linking not being a crap father with being a hero.

Maybe I just haven't seen it in a long time, but it seemed like a pretty tame version of Marvel or DC where everyone had quietly retired and not much was going on.


You're kind of overthinking a setting that no real thought was put into.

I'm not sure I'm the one overthinking this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 15:41:27


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Voss wrote:
They aren't breaking any bans by refusing to die on a private island far away from the public eye.


But that's not what happens in the movie? Either movie, actually. The big fight at the end of the first film happens in a city, not the island.

I'm not sure I'm the one overthinking this.


I'm literally taking it at face value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 15:53:12


   
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SoCal, USA!

Magneto has never been wrong. As a Nazi concentration camp survivor, and then hunted as a mutant, his vigorous, lethal self-defense in the face of actual, genocide threats are entirely reasonable.

If Magneto had done to the world what the United States / Anglosphere / Colonial West has actually done to the Global South, he would be justified in killing the US leadership several times over, along with millions of military forces and collateral civilians. Marvel has never pushed this line, but it is instructive to show just how much restraint Magneto has generally shown toward his enemies.

   
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On Magneto, and as I’m not that familiar with the comics….

Am I right in thinking he mostly just wants full equal rights for Mutants, and for them to be left the hell alone?

I know he ends up with Geonsha as a nation state for Mutants, and Asteroid M. But I’m not aware of him being overly fussed for putting Mutants in control, or taking over the world?

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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Magneto, and as I’m not that familiar with the comics….

Am I right in thinking he mostly just wants full equal rights for Mutants, and for them to be left the hell alone?

I know he ends up with Geonsha as a nation state for Mutants, and Asteroid M. But I’m not aware of him being overly fussed for putting Mutants in control, or taking over the world?


It depends on the version of Magneto (and who's writing him).

In his original appearance? He wasn't a camp survivor or anything. He was just Mutants Uber Alles because villain reasons. He essentially starts the humans vs mutants conflict by creating it (by attacking nuclear submarines or something- forcing 2 fleets to attack each other?), and then the writers had to work backwards to 'well humans are just being bigots.' And a post-hoc justification for magneto's motives.

----
When Genosha first appears, it has nothing to do with Magneto, by the way. Its a random off-the-coast-of-Africa country where mutants are enslaved (ironically using mutants) and culled from the general population and basically lobotimized and put to work. Magneto later conquers it (which... is one of the times he's more justified. I think. It may have been reformed before he conquers it- I honestly lost track).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 20:34:13


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Depends.

On the years where he's written more sympathetically or intended to be a misguided extremist, Magneto is an equal rights warrior who doesn't back down.

At other times he's a mutant supremacist who thinks humanity should just go ahead and die out already.

Like any long-running comic book character, he's got decades of publication behind him and you'll find storylines and reboots supporting a whole range of interpretations for the character.

EDIT: Ninja'd

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 20:34:12


   
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Removed

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/23 22:29:28


   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Magneto, and as I’m not that familiar with the comics….

Am I right in thinking he mostly just wants full equal rights for Mutants, and for them to be left the hell alone?

I know he ends up with Geonsha as a nation state for Mutants, and Asteroid M. But I’m not aware of him being overly fussed for putting Mutants in control, or taking over the world?


The thing is Genosha is the site of the mutant massacre. The night of the sentinels. Magneto literally takes his toys and goes home. Founds his own nation. Invites all mutants to come live in peace. And humanity sends a fleet of sentinels that wipes out millions of mutants in a single evening.

Generally speaking Magneto is contented to be left alone. But he answers every slight with a massive overwhelming response. it's understandable why, but ultimately he is now looking for a fight. He's a revolutionary at heart through experience. Even if he gets what he wants, he sits there waiting for the other shoes to drop so he can go right back to his old ways. It's mostly where he is at right now in the comics with Krakoa. Just, the mutants are winning so damn hard that he's a smug son of a bitch about it. In part thats because he is on the ruling council. Would Magnetos pride ever let him be a part of the nation and not be ruling? Probably not.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/25 02:31:06



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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 LordofHats wrote:
Depends.

On the years where he's written more sympathetically or intended to be a misguided extremist, Magneto is an equal rights warrior who doesn't back down.

At other times he's a mutant supremacist who thinks humanity should just go ahead and die out already.
Spoiler:

Like any long-running comic book character, he's got decades of publication behind him and you'll find storylines and reboots supporting a whole range of interpretations for the character.

EDIT: Ninja'd


Either way, the guy had it right imho.


   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Elvira, Mistress of the Dark.

She is definitely making a point in that film, but I'll get back to you all after I watch it again...

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
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Barpharanges







The Network from Utopia, who plan to sterilise 1 in 20 to bring the human population down to manageable levels and avoid a grievous ecological collapse. The protagonists never really offer a meaningful counterargument or position, whereas the Network have well over 30 years of study and research to back up their actions.





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 blood reaper wrote:
The Network from Utopia, who plan to sterilise 1 in 20 to bring the human population down to manageable levels and avoid a grievous ecological collapse. The protagonists never really offer a meaningful counterargument or position, whereas the Network have well over 30 years of study and research to back up their actions.


That reminds me of a very cheesy 90s movie called Prayer of the Rollerboys...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/31 12:45:10


Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
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Zeon eventually does get what it wants, Freedom from the increasingly weakening Federation.
   
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 blood reaper wrote:
The Network from Utopia, who plan to sterilise 1 in 20 to bring the human population down to manageable levels and avoid a grievous ecological collapse. The protagonists never really offer a meaningful counterargument or position, whereas the Network have well over 30 years of study and research to back up their actions.






The similarities between this and what’s happened over the last two years are Erie. I think the blackmailing Dr sums up the flaw in their plan the best, when everyone gets old and there’s not enough young people to support them everything will collapse, causing society to fail. Kinda makes it sound like flat out genocide is a better option to decrease the population. Their plan just swaps one problem for another.

it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it. 
   
 
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