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Billicus wrote: Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.
Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.
I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's
I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."
Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.
One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.
As per DG/TS summoning is now gone though, so you have.... morale buffs which aren't great but then what? They like possessed - melee unit and have a slight affinity for mortals as cannon fodder, in melee. With WE gone there needs to be a window for melee oriented foot sloggers and WB fit pretty well imo.
Summoning is from the Chaos Daemons book, not from DG/TS, though.
DG/TS/CSM codexes had reminder text from the Chaos Daemons book but the rule itself has always been from the Chaos Daemons book. So, the removal of the reminder text (as well as the reminder datasheets for summonable units) doesn't indicate summoning will be gone. We'll have to wait until the Daemons book to see.
One thing that I’d like to see is some fun stuff with alpha legion. Either some sort of loyalist brood brother type thing, or an army of renown. They still have caches of weapons and everything else, potentially even far reaching colonies/forge worlds from the time of the heresy. They should be pulling out some scary stuff, less warpy stuff.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.
As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?
Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?
The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.
As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?
Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?
Not if you assume that all of the "Does (X) with weapon types (Y, Z, and Q) abilities are effectively "super doctrines" as others have theorized. At that point, my Night Lords have -2 leadership instead of -1 (but it doesn't stack anymore) and +1 to advance and charge rolls, and on turns 4 and 5 +1 to wound anything below half strength or L6 or less (which will be impossible against some factions since the leadership debuff doesn't stack anymore). Which is absolutely NOT what I'd wish for, as you well know. It's actually pretty "meh".
The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.
As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?
Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?
Eh... I've been burned by the eldar leaks before. Plus while a healthy dose of criticism is always nice, all of this is in good fun.
The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.
As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?
Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?
Ork Clan Kulturs changed quite the bit (other than Evil sunz, Freebooters). Goffs gained +1 str and true exploding 6s when they only had 6s gain an additional attack, snakebites had a 6+++ now that's baby transhuman and +1 to wound for squigs. Badmoons was just reroll 1s to hit, now its a range increase on dakka and heavy weapons and 6s are an additional AP.
A lot of the admech ones also changed and gained an additional dogma trait. I imagine craftworlds will also see revised traits instead of the pretty bad ones they have now. It's fairly common for 9th ed codexes to have 2 traits per chapter and sometimes 3, rather than the 1 only trait for most 8th ed codexes.
I don't find the rumours wishlisty, it just feels like a huge improvement which honestly CSM needs. I'm assuming DttFE is gone, hateful assault is baked in, bolter discipline stays and whatever this chaos doctrine is replaces DttFE, and they get some form of Slaves to Darkness Mark of Chaos rule so that they have 2 - 3 faction traits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/25 16:56:24
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Billicus wrote: Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.
Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.
I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's
I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."
Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.
One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.
As per DG/TS summoning is now gone though, so you have.... morale buffs which aren't great but then what? They like possessed - melee unit and have a slight affinity for mortals as cannon fodder, in melee. With WE gone there needs to be a window for melee oriented foot sloggers and WB fit pretty well imo.
Summoning is from the Chaos Daemons book, not from DG/TS, though.
DG/TS/CSM codexes had reminder text from the Chaos Daemons book but the rule itself has always been from the Chaos Daemons book. So, the removal of the reminder text (as well as the reminder datasheets for summonable units) doesn't indicate summoning will be gone. We'll have to wait until the Daemons book to see.
As others have said, if their trait was "bonus to this rule, see codex daemons page whatever" that would be at best an insult. If it doesn't exist in the CSM book then it won't get a bonus for a legion rule.
I don't see it in the OP, but are CSM getting the same +1W buff across the board as regular Marines did?
I.e 2W infantry/jump infantry Marines, 3W Terminators/Bikes, etc.
Obviously units like Cultists, vehicles, Daemons, etc would not get this, but Marine units with clear Loyalist counterparts should 100% have the same number of wounds per model
Galef wrote: I don't see it in the OP, but are CSM getting the same +1W buff across the board as regular Marines did?
I.e 2W infantry/jump infantry Marines, 3W Terminators/Bikes, etc.
Obviously units like Cultists, vehicles, Daemons, etc would not get this, but Marine units with clear Loyalist counterparts should 100% have the same number of wounds per model
-
Yes, they are getting the additional wounds.
The thread mentions Chosen are also getting 3 wounds, and Havocs are staying at 2 wounds.
Galef wrote: I don't see it in the OP, but are CSM getting the same +1W buff across the board as regular Marines did?
I.e 2W infantry/jump infantry Marines, 3W Terminators/Bikes, etc.
Obviously units like Cultists, vehicles, Daemons, etc would not get this, but Marine units with clear Loyalist counterparts should 100% have the same number of wounds per model
-
Yes, they are getting the additional wounds.
The thread mentions Chosen are also getting 3 wounds, and Havocs are staying at 2 wounds.
Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.
Depends on how dumb the unit entry is as well for terminators/chosen more than anything.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.
Not if they give Chosen Infiltrate back. Then they could be up front and causing your opponent problems turn 1, while Terminators would have to either wait for a turn 2 deepstrike or slog up the board.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.
Sounds like Chosen get Thunderhammers and Terminators don't.
In a Black Legion army, I would take a 3W Thunderhammer unit over Terminators with power weapons.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.
Sounds like Chosen get Thunderhammers and Terminators don't.
In a Black Legion army, I would take a 3W Thunderhammer unit over Terminators with power weapons.
Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Eldenfirefly wrote: Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.
Sounds like Chosen get Thunderhammers and Terminators don't.
In a Black Legion army, I would take a 3W Thunderhammer unit over Terminators with power weapons.
Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
No. I'm assuming a Chosen unit continues to have access to multiple special weapons. WRT Chainfists, that depends on points, Stratagems and a couple other factors.
I just would not take it for granted vanilla Terminators are better than Thunderhammer Chosen.
Few discrepancies in the leak (e.g. Black Legion get absolutely no value out of an Icon of Vengeance? Vindicta is their entire theme...) but overall this all seems plausible. The doctrine + World Eaters not being in the book has been publicly corroborated by one of the Eldar leakers so those parts I'm much more confident about.
As a Word Bearers player I certainly won't complain about no longer being the "re-roll morale" guy.
Also very happy if we're able to pick different profiles to suit different targets with Obliterators; a welcome return to form.
Hopefully Chosen get a 5++ Aura of Dark Glory to reflect their status as up and coming leaders.
Platuan4th wrote: Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.
The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.
Platuan4th wrote: Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.
The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.
Sometimes I foolishly hold on to hope.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Platuan4th wrote: Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.
The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.
Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
Gadzilla666 wrote: 2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.
I will hold out hope the wording of the rule will correct this. It would actually convince me to play my favorite legion on the table, instead of just in Kill Team where legion doesn't matter.
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
DR:80SGMB--I--Pw40k01#-D++++A+/fWD-R++T(T)DM+
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
Platuan4th wrote: Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.
The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.
Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
There is only evidence pointing towards it, not against it, thus it's the most likely outcome.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Platuan4th wrote: Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.
The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.
Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
Reality doesn't work that way.
If there's evidence they've changed the paradigm again to move away from the equipment jigsaw, that would be one thing.
But given that it keeps happening and the chosen we've seen are _really monopose, there isn't any reason to expect anything else.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
It's called 'pattern recognition'.
I suppose you can always see a pattern if you ignore any evidence to the contrary?
GSC units kept the ability to equip multiples of weapon options, with one each in the kit
Tau battlesuits can fit multiples of weapons
The new Warlock kit comes with one of each weapon, the leaked datasheet does not enforce that
Chosen may have a restricted datasheet and they may not, but let's not pretend there has been any consistent pattern here.
Platuan4th wrote: Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.
The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.
Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
Reality doesn't work that way.
If there's evidence they've changed the paradigm again to move away from the equipment jigsaw, that would be one thing.
But given that it keeps happening and the chosen we've seen are _really monopose, there isn't any reason to expect anything else.
Sure there is. Didn't you think it was odd that Chosen were the only unit that got a rules update in C: CSM "2" that didn't get new models? It could be possible that the reason they changed their options was because they already had the models, but have held off their release until now for some reason. We haven’t seen the sprues, and there's no reason to think that the Chosen in the CSM vs Eldar box are the ones that will get a separate release. These could be just for the box, with a different set with other options coming for the separate release, same as the new CSM kit. I think some of the loyalist models were similar. Didn't the Indomitus Eradicators lack multi-meltas? It's entirely possible that the rules for Chosen in C: CSM "2" were based on the new models.
xttz wrote: I suppose you can always see a pattern if you ignore any evidence to the contrary?
Oh for crying out loud...
Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and pretend that this weapon limiting via sprue isn't a thing?
It's been happening in just about every Codex this edition, starting with Marines and the wacky Primaris Captain options. It happened to Plague Marines and Terminators. It happened to Skitarii. It happened to Wyches. It happened with Burna Boyz and Lootaz. With Ork Kommandos. It happened to Sword Brethren. Hell it was happening even before that, what with the old Brood Brother entry.
Some escaped this (like the Sisters), and some don't have enough options in the first place for it to become an issue (Custodes), but please don't try and pretend like this isn't actually happening.
Gadzilla666 wrote: We haven’t seen the sprues, and there's no reason to think that the Chosen in the CSM vs Eldar box are the ones that will get a separate release.
Ok dude. That's reaching. That's really reaching. Everything else in that box is coming out... except the Chosen. They're a special one-off?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/25 23:57:06
"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it? The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The Wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always!" —Jago Sevatarion
