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 Tyran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Neophytes and Brood Brothers are, for all intents and purposes, human.

It's once you get into the Acolytes and their ilk that things become more alien.

They also share a hive mind that allows far greater amounts of coordination, mindless fervor that simply cannot be matched by natural human courage and also are usually trained to the same standards as the Guard.

lol, noooooooooope. That's supposed to be the Brood Brothers' schtick, which is less "they are trained to the same standards as the Guard" as "they've subverted local organizations to the point that a Guard founding might actively be infiltrated by elements loyal to the GSC without realizing it".

The actual GSC? Usually trained, roughly, on par with a low-end PDF. Which is not the same standard of training as the Guard.

What they lack is the equipment, although not always.

Again, they're usually stealing crap from the PDF.

Well. I guess guard got a price "increase" but also get free wargear and auto-wound things when they roll a 6 to hit. So uh. I guess that's the buff we're going with.

Not sure how I feel about all that. The auto-wounding on 6s feels really weird. It also feels like an attempt to reduce dice rolling that doesn't actually remove the to-wound step. (Although it does shrink the number of dice you roll at a time.)

I think I might like the free wargear thing? Free points have been a bad idea in the past, but here they specifically only let you take it on a platform that was considered not worth it when said wargear cost points. So like, a cheeky plasma gun and power sword in an infantry squad gives the unit a little boost without making them seem over the top.

Yeah, this is a very weird band-aid and sets up bizarre implications of how a lasgun toting guardsman is somehow more effective at hurting land raiders and tyranid monstrosities en masse than bolters and mid-level weapons like autocannons are.

Free wargear is bad in the sense that you would pretty much NEVER take a sniper rifle or grenade launcher even moreso now when you have clearly superior weapons from plasma and a lascannon. Very few people willingly take worse weapon choices.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, this is a very weird band-aid and sets up bizarre implications of how a lasgun toting guardsman is somehow more effective at hurting land raiders and tyranid monstrosities en masse than bolters and mid-level weapons like autocannons are.

Free wargear is bad in the sense that you would pretty much NEVER take a sniper rifle or grenade launcher even moreso now when you have clearly superior weapons from plasma and a lascannon. Very few people willingly take worse weapon choices.

I guess if we assume that...
* Guard troop squads need a buff.
* No one was taking any upgrades on them before.
* Everyone will take the optimal upgrades in the future.

... Then guardsmen squads remain just as mono-build as before, but their power is increased. So a lateral move for diversity, but an improvement for gameplay?

Wyldhunt wrote:
Well. I guess guard got a price "increase" but also get free wargear and auto-wound things when they roll a 6 to hit. So uh. I guess that's the buff we're going with.

Not sure how I feel about all that. The auto-wounding on 6s feels really weird. It also feels like an attempt to reduce dice rolling that doesn't actually remove the to-wound step. (Although it does shrink the number of dice you roll at a time.)

I think I might like the free wargear thing? Free points have been a bad idea in the past, but here they specifically only let you take it on a platform that was considered not worth it when said wargear cost points. So like, a cheeky plasma gun and power sword in an infantry squad gives the unit a little boost without making them seem over the top.

Do you think it's justified or a bit too far? For 60 points, the infantry squad can now be upgraded for free to what before the dataslate was the equivalent of 90 pts. And they also have this 6s to-hit auto-wound.

bibotot wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Well. I guess guard got a price "increase" but also get free wargear and auto-wound things when they roll a 6 to hit. So uh. I guess that's the buff we're going with.

Not sure how I feel about all that. The auto-wounding on 6s feels really weird. It also feels like an attempt to reduce dice rolling that doesn't actually remove the to-wound step. (Although it does shrink the number of dice you roll at a time.)

I think I might like the free wargear thing? Free points have been a bad idea in the past, but here they specifically only let you take it on a platform that was considered not worth it when said wargear cost points. So like, a cheeky plasma gun and power sword in an infantry squad gives the unit a little boost without making them seem over the top.

Do you think it's justified or a bit too far? For 60 points, the infantry squad can now be upgraded for free to what before the dataslate was the equivalent of 90 pts. And they also have this 6s to-hit auto-wound.

Hard to say without playing against it. It's a big change. I never saw anyone taking special weapons in infantry squads, so it's probably safe to assume that those upgrades weren't considered worth their cost. So the designers probably had a cushion there. On paper, I'm definitely not scared of the new and improved guardsmen because they're still super easy to remove. However, I do like the idea of having a few extra heavy/special weapons with a pile of ablative wounds protecting them. I wouldn't pay points for those weapons before the changes, but having them for free makes them much more of an asset.

Basically, new guardsmen don't seem super scary, but the extra wargear gives them a couple of teeth to bite with. They might actually contribute to offense now, albeit in a limited fashion.

I don't think I like the auto-wounds rule though. Not because it's OP (haven't seen any math) but because it feels mildly clunky. Based on my very limited experience with the new swooping hawk rules (their guns got a something similar), it just feels a little weird. Like, in my last game, half the wounds my hawks put on Mortarion were from the to-hit rolls. I'm not sure GW was trying to make hawks better at hurting high-Toughness targets. The mechanic just doesn't click for me yet, and it kind of feels like a thing they're experimenting with. I think that they think that it reduces dice rolling because it literally reduces the number of dice you pick up, but scooping up dice isn't really the step that slows down attack resolution in my experience; it's more the number of individual dice pools. Which this mechanic doesn't reduce.

I kind of like that Guardsmen get some free kit in the new slate. Maybe all squads come with a Vox as standard, and can take a flamer/grenade launcher and missile launcher for free? Then the better upgrades can be cheap upgrades.

Sure GLs and MLs are pretty naff, but it's a much easier pill to swallow when you're not paying for them. It also means that things like plasma guns and lascannons aren't free, which is silly.

The best fix would be for GW to make the game less lethal as a whole while also recognising that they have far more design space than just "unit needs to kill things fast". At the end of the day, lasguns directly getting any damage buff will feel increasingly off while basic boltguns are still S4 AP- so instead GW should give the masses of Guardsmen more utility.

For example (numbers and all that not balanced, conceptual only):

Suppressing Fire (Action): One or more units from your army can start to perform this action at the end of your Movement phase. When a unit starts to perform this action, choose an unengaged enemy unit within range and line of sight of a majority of the performing unit's ranged weapons. The action is completed at the end of your next shooting phase as long as the perfoming unit has 5 or more models. If a unit performing this action has 10 or more models upon successfully completing the action, treat the action as having been successfully performed twice.
At the end of your Shooting phase, for each enemy units were chosen as the target for one or more successful Suppressing Fire actions roll a D6 and add 1 to the result for each successful Suppressing Fire action perfromed against it. If the result is equal to or exceeds the enemy unit's Leadership value, it is Suppressed until the end of your next turn.
While Suppressed, the unit reduces the distance it can Move or Charge by 2, cannot Advance and suffers a -1 to their To Hit rolls with ranged weapons.

Spotting (Action): One or more of your VOX CASTER units from your army can start to perform this action at the start of your Movement phase. The action is completed at the start of your Shooting phase. If this action is successfully completed, select one enemy unit within 24" of one model in the unit equipped with a vox caster. ARTILLERY units in your army ignore the Indirect Fire penalty when targeting that unit. Furthermore, units within 6" of the unit that perform the action or that have the VOX CASTER keyword ignore cover when firing at the selected unit.

I like your idea of giving guard squads actions. Maybe merging actions with some of the orders.

FRFSRF could be your proposed suppression action, and BID could be the spotting one.

Make each unit capable of buffing other friendlies when fulfilling their orders, actually working as a cohesive force rather than a group of individual squads. This would make Guardsmen still pretty naff in a straight fight, but they don't care because they're directing in the bigger threats.

I assume the Suppressing Fire action only works on infantry?

 Mr Morden wrote:
I assume the Suppressing Fire action only works on infantry?

Restricting it to certain unit types certainly would make the most sense, whether that be just Infantry or including Beasts, Cavalry and Bikes (and whatever else I'm forgetting) too

Lasguns definitely shouldn't be higher Strength or AP IMO. I also don't think Guardsmen should get a better save by default. What I do think is that they should get more upgrade options that make them bigger threats in other ways.

Some half-formed thoughts to supplement the ones already here:

UNITS:

- Give Infantry Squads access to two special weapons (like real-life infantry sections, which typically have one support weapon per fireteam). This would allow them to specialise (or generalise) a little better, and could make shooting with special weapons (like meltaguns) more reliable. (Also, please just let me take lasguns on my section leaders, or shotguns.) You could also remove Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry Squads and make them a separate unit that can be taken in the same detachment slot as an Infantry Squad (see below); Infantry Squads would be more about mobile firepower, leaving the big, cumbersome weapons to other units.

- Heavy weapon teams aren't available as a direct upgrade for Infantry Squads. They come only as budget (25-30pt) heavy support units: basically 5-man Infantry Squads, but with access to one heavy weapon instead of two special weapons. For every Infantry Squad in your detachment though, you can take a Heavy Weapon Squad in the same detachment slot. You could also potentially take up to 5 of these in the same detachment slot. They can also take plasma cannons, multi-meltas, etc… maybe a gun shield upgrade/feature as well that gives the gunner +1 to his T and Sv, and couples with the extra bodies to help them soak up damage a little better? Or a signum/scanner upgrade/rule that lets another Guardsman model sacrifice its shooting phase to 'assist' the gunner model (+1BS)?

- Command squads could become better at buffing nearby infantry and protecting characters. They could have more powerful medic characters who automatically heal wounds/revive models – not just on a 4+ – and who could have something akin to the Apothecary’s “Narthecium Aura” ability (units within 3" can ignore wounds on a 6). The Command Squad could also include vox ‘administrators’ or something, who count as regular vox operators but also grant any officers within 3” an additional order, or let officers order the same unit twice. The squad should also start off with regular Guardsmen to keep its cost low, not BS3+ Veterans (see below). Maybe this could be paired with them losing special weapon access (it seems unfluffy to me that they often end up roleplaying as special weapon squads).

- No more dedicated Veteran squads. Any non-Scion infantry unit (or this could include vehicle units?) could be upgradable with the <Veteran> tag, in which case all models in those units gain +1 to their A and Ld. <Veteran> units could also double their existing access to special weapons, and benefit from a stratagem that gives them +1 or similar to hit (ranged or melee) in a given phase (rather than having flat BS3+ for example).

- No more dedicated Conscript squads. Some infantry/vehicle units (maybe all <Core> units?) could be upgradable/degradable with the <Conscript> tag. Models in <Conscript> units would lose -1 WS, BS and Ld, and halve their access to special weapons… however any time <Conscript> units get destroyed they can redeploy again on the field the turn after. Maybe Conscripts should also lose the ‘orders only take effect on a 4+’ rule as well. If you want a big Conscript squad, use the Consolidate Squads stratagem.

- Scions get the same range on their hotshot weapons as non-hotshot ones – all “hotshot” does is confer extra AP (and/or Strength, with hotshot lasguns being S4 AP-1?). A stratagem like the 'variable power setting' one below could mean that a loss of 1 AP could be compensated for elsewhere. I’d also like if Scions could swap out their hotshot lasguns with “hellguns”: a different weapon entirely at something like Range 18”, S3, AP0, Assault 4. And giving Scions options for auxiliary weapons, combi-weapons or plasma/melta pistols could be interesting – more flavourful IMO than just letting them pick the same special weapons as regular infantry.

- Ditch Special Weapon squads. If you want concentrated special weapons, take a <Veteran> Infantry Squad or Scion Squad.

WARGEAR

- Additional wargear options. Infantry units (or at least Sergeants) should be able to take krak grenades, maybe melta bombs or demo charges too. Non-hotshot volley guns could also be included in the special weapons list to give regular infantry a cheap high-RoF weapon (especially if HotE is around to stay), as could new single-shot anti-tank or anti-flyer missile weapons? You could also do other misc things, like let any infantry unit take cameleoline cloaks, carapace armour or medipacks. Things like cameleoline and medipacks could be particularly valuable for Scions dropping into danger, and would also help infantry squads trying to hold objectives.

- Maybe some actual bonuses for taking bayonets (aka, as a lite melee option for Infantry Squads). Something defensive (like a bracing stratagem) could be interesting, and might gel well with their battlefield role. Alternatively, just something like +1 WS and/or AP in a turn where they charge/are charged.

- Turn the grenade launcher into a Heavy 2 weapon using the current rotary-magazine model? Alternatively, make the current weapon profile an auxiliary/combi-weapon option on the Sergeant, with a new underslung model? Another option to make grenade launchers more appealing could be to let them indirect-fire, like short-ranged budget mortars.

- I think flamers should become Assault 2D6, Blast. On the flip side, I also think they should fire at regular or +1 BS instead of auto-hitting (meaning the firer’s BS still matters), and should maybe have a range of 6” instead of 12”. They (or ‘flame’ weapons more broadly) could also reduce cover bonuses by 1, and/or reduce the Ld of any unit they successfully wound/damage.

- To make meltaguns more reliable (on top of being able to take 2 per Infantry Squad), they could also be +1 to hit or Assault D3, Blast (with a worse statline). I mean, you’re talking about unleashing the plasma energy of a fusion reaction, right? Lava is hot enough to kill you from dozens of metres away… how the operators of these weapons survive is beyond me.

- As a general rule, the minimum number of attacks made by blast weapons could be half the model count of the squad they're targeting. Maybe this could be a quarter for 'small blast' weapons like flamers and grenades, or equal to the target squad size for 'large blast' weapons.

- Vox casters could be longer range? They could also provide indirect fire units with direct line-of-sight if other units (ones with line-of-sight to the weapon’s target) are linked via vox. This might be a more sensible way of circumventing the new ‘-1 BS to indirect fire’ rule than just straight-up saying AM are exempt.

- Missile launchers (and potentially other "missile" weapons) should be able to re-roll misses by default, or fire at +1 BS.

- Bolt weapons need a boost in power and cost (although this is probably an argument for elsewhere). I personally think +1 AP would be a good start, plus either +1 Strength or +1/D3 Damage (or mortal rounds on wound rolls of 6?). I actually really like the idea of representing a bolt's internal explosion with multiple damage – D3 damage would be clunkier than just +1 damage, but would give bolt weapons a lot of utility as anti-MEQ or anti-Gravis/Custodian weapons... which is exactly what occurred during the Horus Heresy. Mortal wounds on 6's would also achieve something similar in a simpler way (and a way in which the in-game mechanism synergises well with the concept behind it), but would mean that you couldn't one-shot a 3-wound model.

ORDERS/STRATEGEMS

- Maybe a 'variable power setting' order/stratagem for las weapons (or just lasguns and hotshot lasguns)? I.e. a 'maximum power' option wherein las weapons get +1 Strength, rerolls to wound, or +1 AP. You could also have a 'minimum power' option (replacing FRFSRF, and being less of an auto-choice) which could do the opposite: +1/double shots, -1 Strength and/or -1 AP. This would allow a bit of tactical flexibility, and would also bolster weapons like lascannons (you can always fire 2 minimum-power shots to improve your chances of a hit).

- A martyrdom-style stratagem that lets guardsmen 'overcharge' their lasgun power packs could be fun as well. E.g. if a unit is killed during a Fight Phase with this stratagem active, the attacking unit suffers D6 hits/mortal wounds.

MISC THOUGHTS

- Infantry Squads get the "long-las", not sniper rifles. Long-lases could have AP1 or AP2 (in the lore, they often use hotshot packs)? Sniper rifles are reserved for Ratlings (and made a bit more potent)? Just like vehicle squadrons, snipers could be bought as units but then split up and operate independently once the game starts. Each sniper could upgrade with a spotter (similar idea here) and form a two-man unit; the spotter can assist the sniper (+1 BS) during the shooting phase in lieu of shooting himself. 48" range, AP1, and mortal wounds on hit (not wound) rolls of 6?

- Maybe we could start replacing heavy bolters in the AM lineup with multilasers – mostly for fluffy reasons, but also because of the similarity between the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon statlines. On the same note, I wish pintle weapons were volley guns instead of the less-fitting (IMO) heavy stubbers and storm bolters.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Lasguns definitely shouldn't be higher Strength or AP IMO. I also don't think Guardsmen should get a better save by default. What I do think is that they should get more upgrade options that make them bigger threats in other ways.
.

If Fleshborers are S5 AP1 (though 1 shot only) and Shootas are S4 AP0, why should Lasgun have S3 AP0?

Whatever the change, I just want the Guardsman to have a higher point value than Termagants, Hormagaunts, and Ork Boyz. Tyranids and Orks always outnumber the Astra Militarum, so it's weird when fielding the opposite on the tabletop.

bibotot wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Lasguns definitely shouldn't be higher Strength or AP IMO. I also don't think Guardsmen should get a better save by default. What I do think is that they should get more upgrade options that make them bigger threats in other ways.
.

If Fleshborers are S5 AP1 (though 1 shot only) and Shootas are S4 AP0, why should Lasgun have S3 AP0?

Whatever the change, I just want the Guardsman to have a higher point value than Termagants, Hormagaunts, and Ork Boyz. Tyranids and Orks always outnumber the Astra Militarum, so it's weird when fielding the opposite on the tabletop.

Not saying I agree with fleshborer or shoota stats (especially the former), but lasguns' current statline seems representative atm (I picture a modern-day rifle being something like S2 AP0).

Maybe if las weapons were going to do something a bit more characterful, it could be some kind of accuracy buff/strategem (due to their lack of recoil and excellent ballistics), and maybe an extra penalty for firing through environmental effects (like smoke). Or as I posted above, even stratagems that let them play with their weapon power settings, or even overcharge them like grenades upon death.

bibotot wrote:

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Lasguns definitely shouldn't be higher Strength or AP IMO. I also don't think Guardsmen should get a better save by default. What I do think is that they should get more upgrade options that make them bigger threats in other ways.
.

If Fleshborers are S5 AP1 (though 1 shot only) and Shootas are S4 AP0, why should Lasgun have S3 AP0?

Whatever the change, I just want the Guardsman to have a higher point value than Termagants, Hormagaunts, and Ork Boyz. Tyranids and Orks always outnumber the Astra Militarum, so it's weird when fielding the opposite on the tabletop.

AM lasguns do benefit from the new rule which makes them much more powerful. And AM lasgun dudes can still fire twice. Not to mention that guardsmen are criminally cheap compared to any other troops.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Not sure how I feel about all that. The auto-wounding on 6s feels really weird. It also feels like an attempt to reduce dice rolling that doesn't actually remove the to-wound step. (Although it does shrink the number of dice you roll at a time.)

I've been suggesting doing this to lasguns for ages. Seems like GW just want this to be the Guards pure army rule.

You're absolutely right on the idea of reducing dice rolls. They're both trying to speed up Guard gameplay, as well as make them more reliable and increase damage.

 I_am_a_Spoon wrote:
Give Infantry Squads access to two special weapons (like real-life infantry sections, which typically have one support weapon per fireteam). This would allow them to specialise (or generalise) a little better, and could make shooting with special weapons (like meltaguns) more reliable. (Also, please just let me take lasguns on my section leaders, or shotguns.) You could also remove Heavy Weapon Teams from Infantry Squads and make them a separate unit that can be taken in the same detachment slot as an Infantry Squad (see below); Infantry Squads would be more about mobile firepower, leaving the big, cumbersome weapons to other units.

Heavy weapon teams aren't available as a direct upgrade for Infantry Squads. They come only as budget (25-30pt) heavy support units: basically 5-man Infantry Squads, but with access to one heavy weapon instead of two special weapons. For every Infantry Squad in your detachment though, you can take a Heavy Weapon Squad in the same detachment slot. You could also potentially take up to 5 of these in the same detachment slot. They can also take plasma cannons, multi-meltas, etc… maybe a gun shield upgrade/feature as well that gives the gunner +1 to his T and Sv, and couples with the extra bodies to help them soak up damage a little better? Or a signum/scanner upgrade/rule that lets another Guardsman model sacrifice its shooting phase to 'assist' the gunner model (+1BS)?

...

No more dedicated Veteran squads. Any non-Scion infantry unit (or this could include vehicle units?) could be upgradable with the <Veteran> tag, in which case all models in those units gain +1 to their A and Ld. <Veteran> units could also double their existing access to special weapons, and benefit from a stratagem that gives them +1 or similar to hit (ranged or melee) in a given phase (rather than having flat BS3+ for example).

Ditch Special Weapon squads. If you want concentrated special weapons, take a <Veteran> Infantry Squad or Scion Squad.

I just watched Auspex Tactics' latest video, in which he states that most of the above suggestions may be happening (maybe not exactly as described, but still)...

Can I ask you about how many Guardsmen, you think, should a single Space Marine be worth?

Not regarding the background, but when we have a board and it should be playable. I guess, you could ask, how big a difference (factor) should there be between normal units/models?

Of course, it also depends on how many points in total are played and how big the board is, but can the question be answered, if we put that aside?

Chaospling wrote:
Can I ask you about how many Guardsmen, you think, should a single Space Marine be worth?

If it was up to me, a Guardsman would cost ~7 points and they would be no pushovers for that cost. A Space Marine would cost ~30 points and they would be absolute powerhouses. So a roughly 4:1 ratio, but 4 basic Guardsmen wouldn't stand much chance against 1 basic Space Marine.

However, the standard 10-strong Infantry Squad with a Grenade Launcher and a Heavy Bolter would cost ~125 points, while the standard 10-strong Tactical Squad with a Flamer and a Heavy Bolter would cost ~345 points, so the ratio would go down to roughly 3:1, however-however the 3 Infantry Squads would be an even match for the 1 Tactical Squad. The point is that while the Space Marines are stronger individually (effectiveness increase is linear with number increase), the Guardsmen are greater together than the sum of the parts (effectiveness increase is exponential with number increase).

My ideal game, if I started 40k from scratch without concern for existing armies or marketing, would be for Marines to be like movie marines.

T5, W5, S5, 5 shot bolters etc. An army of around 10 individuals to face 50-100 guardsmen, orks or nids.

The only thing guard needs to be viable is. All forgeworld kreig kits released in plastic.

That is all.