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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Crablezworth wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


It's also sorta sad to have to build tables to accommodate the silliest models like super heavies and knights. We had to to accommodate for them in 30k and it sorta made the tables worse overall imo.


Sensible folk knew from the getgo that IKs and super heavies would ruin any game other than Epic. Either you reserve such models for Epic or create a separate game for them like Pacific Rim.
Apart from that tournament terrain setup has it´s flaws The stars in 30K/40K are still infantry squads but you almost never see intact multi-story buildings where those units get to shine.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Strg Alt wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


It's also sorta sad to have to build tables to accommodate the silliest models like super heavies and knights. We had to to accommodate for them in 30k and it sorta made the tables worse overall imo.


Sensible folk knew from the getgo that IKs and super heavies would ruin any game other than Epic. Either you reserve such models for Epic or create a separate game for them like Pacific Rim.
Apart from that tournament terrain setup has it´s flaws The stars in 30K/40K are still infantry squads but you almost never see intact multi-story buildings where those units get to shine.


that is honestly the biggest problem with 40k in a nutshell.. we need more multi level terrain for infantry. generally in real life infantry doesn't run around in the open when tanks are about, for a reason

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

Yeah, but you still need to be able to physically move those 20-man tactical squads in and around the terrain. Ultimately, terrain still has to be functional.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Was mildly Heresy curious but that whole reaction thing that grumpy Mr Makka's video covered has put me right off, as it seems like a hamfisted bodge of UGOIGO and AA, which may work in low count skirmish games but not so much with big lumps of Marines and dakkatanks

Oh well one day my BFG will come...(with new rules hopefully)

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Have you considered not listening to TOC and maybe looking at reviews from people who didn't spend 3 mins on the topic and 17 on random whinging? Like literally anyone else.
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Was mildly Heresy curious but that whole reaction thing that grumpy Mr Makka's video covered has put me right off, as it seems like a hamfisted bodge of UGOIGO and AA, which may work in low count skirmish games but not so much with big lumps of Marines and dakkatanks

Oh well one day my BFG will come...(with new rules hopefully)


The man's a fool. I would completely ignore him. I've played a few games of 2.0 and it's really good. He almost certainly hasn't played and is basically just making rage videos for a reaction and views or because he actually has some kind of problem. Ignore, get into heresy, and enjoy yourself!
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues, I suspect the power creep as each Legion gets their book (and mandatory FAQ making the book worthless in a month or so) will be quite the thing, I'll see how things are going in a year but currently its a hard pass

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues,

The OP doesn't have any better idea than TOC or you as to what the new game is going to be like as they also don't have the full rulebook. So maybe base your opinions on a variety of sources rather than a whinging self-entitled brat (TOC) and someone who doesn't have the rules.

I suspect the power creep as each Legion gets their book (and mandatory FAQ making the book worthless in a month or so) will be quite the thing, I'll see how things are going in a year but currently its a hard pass

Mind sharing how you know each Legion is getting its own book?
This isn't like 8th Ed Indexes where there are no army rules, relics, etc., these upcoming books are the full package for the Loyalist and Traitor Legions.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I've got a "wait-and-see" attitude towards the whole Reaction thing and how the legions will be balanced. If my gaming group and I like the reactions and don't feel that either it or the different Legion rules are causing enough imbalance to make narrative play less fun, then we'll stick to the current rules. If not, then we'll simply adjust the rules as we feel needed.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Gert wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues,

The OP doesn't have any better idea than TOC or you as to what the new game is going to be like as they also don't have the full rulebook. So maybe base your opinions on a variety of sources rather than a whinging self-entitled brat (TOC) and someone who doesn't have the rules.


Yeah, what would we know, we're not very analytical people. And I mean, what with you being psychic and all, we don't stand a chance fren.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arcanis161 wrote:
I've got a "wait-and-see" attitude towards the whole Reaction thing and how the legions will be balanced. If my gaming group and I like the reactions and don't feel that either it or the different Legion rules are causing enough imbalance to make narrative play less fun, then we'll stick to the current rules. If not, then we'll simply adjust the rules as we feel needed.


You monster, perhaps consider your moral failings as a human, GW will hear of this


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues, I suspect the power creep as each Legion gets their book (and mandatory FAQ making the book worthless in a month or so) will be quite the thing, I'll see how things are going in a year but currently its a hard pass


We basically came to similar conclusions a few weeks before toc made his video, either it's an international conspiracy to sink GW and push forward general negativity, or maybe we have a point. Few mention the whole sabres being faster than jevellins thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Have you considered not listening to TOC and maybe looking at reviews from people who didn't spend 3 mins on the topic and 17 on random whinging? Like literally anyone else.


We spent 52 minutes and you still think we have some agenda while also fabricating the leaks we have. We also made it clear that our video is not where to go to be informed, it's our own analysis and opinion, pretty clearly. We're not exactly holding the leaks up to the camera.



And if anyone can read a video title, toc made a video about warlord traits in 2.0 and he seems to like them, I guess that means they're probably terrible and you shouldn't watch the video. I'm sorry the guy pointed out the toxic positivity problem in the hobby but it's there for all to see.


This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2022/05/25 16:40:12


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Crablezworth wrote:
Yeah, what would we know, we're not very analytical people. And I mean, what with you being psychic and all, we don't stand a chance fren.

I mean do you have the rulebook? No? So my point to that poster was to maybe not only base their opinion on people who haven't seen the full ruleset.

We spent 52 minutes and you still think we have some agenda while also fabricating the leaks we have. We also made it clear that our video is not where to go to be informed, it's our own analysis and opinion, pretty clearly. We're not exactly holding the leaks up to the camera.

Never said you had an agenda chief.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Gotta say Crablesworth, you sure push this guys videos so I'm gonna ask..

Are those your videos?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

BrianDavion wrote:
Gotta say Crablesworth, you sure push this guys videos so I'm gonna ask..

Are those your videos?


Our video is in the OP. (Not Australian last I checked )

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/CoverSlaves/videos






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Yeah, what would we know, we're not very analytical people. And I mean, what with you being psychic and all, we don't stand a chance fren.

I mean do you have the rulebook? No? So my point to that poster was to maybe not only base their opinion on people who haven't seen the full ruleset.

We spent 52 minutes and you still think we have some agenda while also fabricating the leaks we have. We also made it clear that our video is not where to go to be informed, it's our own analysis and opinion, pretty clearly. We're not exactly holding the leaks up to the camera.

Never said you had an agenda chief.


Was the latest toc videos positivity levels up to standards?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/25 21:35:25


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






I don't know because I don't watch TOC as I stay away from clickbait YouTubers.
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Yeah, but you still need to be able to physically move those 20-man tactical squads in and around the terrain. Ultimately, terrain still has to be functional.


Three solutions:

1) Build an intact building with a detachable roof and detachable floors. This might seem to be fiddly but works well in regard to SM armies due to low model count. I played this way a lot during 3rd when one of my buddies had built a fantastic city terrain collection which came along with streets.

2) Build an intact building with non detachable parts. This means you can only place models on the flat roof. Minis on lower levels may be represented by hugging the walls on the ground floor with the addition of a die representing the corresponding level.

3) Build a L-shaped ruin with LARGE floors. Take a look at Cityfight 3rd how it is supposed to be done. This provides best access to all levels for easy play. However you usually can´t pull off cinematic stuff like landing on the roof (LZ is generally too small) with your jump packs and blowing up tanks on street level with equipped special weapons.


In all cases you need abstract terrain rules which grant troops cover and LOS (3rd allowed LOS of six inches through any kind of terrain with the exception of solid stuff like hills) wherever they are in the building. So it doesn´t matter if they face a wall with a few windows or the open area of a demolished building.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.

2022 painted/bought: 307/419 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.


No one demanded skyscrapers. Out of my experience I would suggest four levels for the TALLEST buildings on the board:

0: Ground Level
1: Floor 1
2: Floor 2
3: Roof

Moving though difficult terrain worked like this in 3rd: Roll 2D6 in your move phase and the unit in question may move BOTH horizontally and vertically according to the highest score of a single dice. In order to climb/descend a single level, a unit needs at least a score of 3 rolled on a dice. This means if you rolled a six you could even climb up/down up to two floors in a single move. Next comes the assault phase in which you can move again and cover ground. Instead of shooting a unit can opt to run. And remember that in HH 2.0 your run score is fixed as it is equal to your initiative value which will be in most cases four (SM). So you will automatically be able to at least ascend/descend one level when sprinting.

All this considered doesn´t imply multi-level buildings to be game breaking obstacles. The players would need to adapt to a new combat environment. Suddenly USRs such as "Move through cover", "Infiltrate", "Deepstrike" and "Jetpack" become more important than sheer killing power. In a nutshell: All USRs which give a boost to movement are very handy. Special mentions go to jetpack troops which can reach rooftops in a single move. Tanks with templates which ignore cover also become more attractive. And blobs of Tactical marines are safe in buildings from rampaging bikes and dreadnoughts making internet cookie-cutter lists less effective which are traditionally played on flat boards with hardly any relevant floor levels.

Another thing to be considered is that the aforementioned Tactical blobs have a smaller footprint on the board due to the fact that they can be placed vertically on multiple levels. This means you have less problems with space on a smaller table. One important note though: Plan your city with streets in mind as you may want to leave enough space for your transport vehicles to unload marines. How wide should a street be? When two rhinos can drive comfortably on it next to each other then it ought to be enough.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I've thought about allowing vertical movement to be faster if there's a ladder or other obvious mode of ascent, for gameplay reasons. I dunno, I think it's a shame not to use vertical terrain but in practice you'll often end up ignoring it because of the cost in movement, unless you put objectives up there.

   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Da Boss wrote:
I've thought about allowing vertical movement to be faster if there's a ladder or other obvious mode of ascent, for gameplay reasons. I dunno, I think it's a shame not to use vertical terrain but in practice you'll often end up ignoring it because of the cost in movement, unless you put objectives up there.


A Cityfight is characterized by having multiple buildings in your deployment zone as well as in no-man´s land. So it is a no-brainer to put your troops with heavy weapons on a roof during the deployment phase of the 1st turn. And with Infiltrate you can directly deploy troops before the game in buildings which are located in no-man´s land.

Ladders:
That´s fiddly stuff better reserved for skirmish games like Necromunda. If you insist on these things you better model battered furniture all across the ruins as well. Nah, better keep it abstract with smooth floors allowing a healthy amount of models to be placed without suffering from Wobbly Model Syndrome.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Da Boss wrote:
I've thought about allowing vertical movement to be faster if there's a ladder or other obvious mode of ascent, for gameplay reasons. I dunno, I think it's a shame not to use vertical terrain but in practice you'll often end up ignoring it because of the cost in movement, unless you put objectives up there.


We'd used a house rule in the past where if half a unit or more could make base contact with a ruin floors looking top down, they could instead of running in the shooting phase all basically climb one level up but they'd have to remain pretty tightly packed like they all just helped one another climb up. The balance was basically it forced infantry units to clump up when they might not ideally like to to give them the movement bump. It worked ok.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/31 21:07:25


   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 godardc wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !


I agree lol suggested just that in the last post.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 godardc wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !


Intact building might have still functioning elevators. Ruins on the other hand are less likely to have still reliable lifts. Then there will be a risk associated for troops using an elevator while all types of ordnance hits the structure thus running the risk of being stuck in said elevator due to damage.

Even when such notions as functioning lifts are left aside allowing troops to use an elevator to effortlessly move up towards the top devalues any troops with the aforementioned movement perks such as jetpacks. This reminds me of the good, old D&D times: Why bring a thief to the game when you have a wizard who can emulate ALL thief skills with wizardry.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 Strg Alt wrote:
 godardc wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !


Intact building might have still functioning elevators. Ruins on the other hand are less likely to have still reliable lifts. Then there will be a risk associated for troops using an elevator while all types of ordnance hits the structure thus running the risk of being stuck in said elevator due to damage.

Even when such notions as functioning lifts are left aside allowing troops to use an elevator to effortlessly move up towards the top devalues any troops with the aforementioned movement perks such as jetpacks. This reminds me of the good, old D&D times: Why bring a thief to the game when you have a wizard who can emulate ALL thief skills with wizardry.


it was only introduced because some buildings were not internally accessible, it was that or limit where objectives could be placed so we went with that. Jump troops and skimmers and jetbikes all still had a clear advantage. it just have infantry units a chance.


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.


"You know these incredibly brave, superhuman warriors who are really, really brave? Well here's a subfaction who is even braver."

Ironically, I think this is why Night Lords are great when depicted as the low morale faction among the Space Marines - because it's actually a meaningful difference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/01 09:13:54


The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.  
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.


Paint scheme is more important than rules which may change from edition to edition.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.

I mean they also got a rule which means they don't draw combat, which is very good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/01 12:09:41


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

 blood reaper wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.


"You know these incredibly brave, superhuman warriors who are really, really brave? Well here's a subfaction who is even braver."

Ironically, I think this is why Night Lords are great when depicted as the low morale faction among the Space Marines - because it's actually a meaningful difference.


You just summed up my problem with most of the Imperium factions fluff in general. "You know those extra special troops that are the pinnacle of humanity? Well these guys are even extra specialer". It finally hit me last week when I was reviewing the SM Legions fluff, I think in part thanks to WarCom articles. Basically every legions description has some sort of "angle" to it about how they are the extra special snowflake legion that the Emperor kept hidden or in reserve for mysterious reasons or assigned special tasks/honors, etc. under mysterious circumstances. Like, every single one of them has something in the fluff that either implies or directly states that they were special-er than the other legions - the problem with that is that they can't all be specialer than the others. Thats like a double-negative, if they are all equally specialer than they are all equally mundane - if they are all specialer than the other legions, than none of them are.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
 
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