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Made in us
Pious Palatine




 Jidmah wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When asked about the recent codex balance, it was discussed that a lot of the codexes were balanced against each other before they were released (and subsequently adjusted) then the next would come out but still be based off the balance they had against the previous release
This runs counter to observed results.

One of the conversations people have had is if they should just unnerf the books but I'm not sure if anyone has tried the previously nerfed books against the newest stuff or not.

You can find a bunch of battle reports down that alley.

It probably would help some codices, but you still have toxic lists like any variant of indirect fire/plane spam that just needed the axe, plus other codices which have never really have been nerfed like necrons or marines.


Or codexes that were the nerf like Sisters.


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




GW should not design armies around one list using one specific unit, often spamed, when they know that their modus operandi is to release stuff and then nerf it 1-6 months later.
Because this creates a huge gap between the books of haves, that can build multiple armies, and the have nots, where if you remove buggies the faction stops to work. And I don't think if this is made to future proof new releases ala primaris, where they are horrible on day one, but become good at the end or next edition. Or should not be made to wait for their prime orks to be good in 1-2 edition time.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




The Great State of New Jersey

What I am saying is that your beliefs don't make sense because GSC should have been tested against Custodes which should reveal that one or both of them needed to be changed, same thing for Sororitas against AdMech and so on. It's not like the codexes are internally balanced either, internal balance hasn't been terrible either though.


I literally addressed both of those scenarios in my post and explain how they went awry as a result of GWs rolling development methodology.

Sororitas were playtested against Ad Mech early on, but not after Ad Mech was finalized and sent to print. Sororitas ended up getting toned down because their dev cycle (along with the next several books after) was far enough back that that they could account for some of the balance adjustments that were made post-release to the Necron/Space Marine/Death Guard books, etc. whereas Ad Mech (and Drukhari) were too far along in the dev cycle to capture feedback from the live meta before release. GWs designers aren't completely incompetent at their work - they understand that they need to make adjustments based on live feedback, but their dev cycles and lead times don't necessarily allow them to do so.

Basically what I'm saying is that there was likely a point where Sisters, Grey Knights, and Thousand Sons were much more powerful than they were when released, but they got toned down based on live meta feedback prior to going to print, whereas Drukhari and Ad Mech probably started out less powerful than they were prior to release (i.e. they started out looking more like SM, Necrons, and Death Guard), but got scaled up as a result of their exposure to early versions of Sisters/GK/TSons which were at the time much more powerful books as they didn't yet have feedback from the released books to tone them down.

GSC on the other hand are an underappreciated book - they are IMO more powerful than most of the books that came before them (barring Ad Mech/Drukhari), but eclipsed by Custodes who had more exposure vs the sublimely overpowered books that are Tau, Aeldari, and Tyranids. Note though that Custodes are extra-OP due to day 0 points cuts and balance adjustments because they were perceived as not being powerful enough in playtesting against the armies that released afterwards. So yes, GSC were playtested against Custodes, but the Custodes that they were playtested against are not the same as the Custodes that were published (which likely got some limited exposure to Aeldari/Nids prior to release), and definitely not the same as the Custodes that everyone has been playing since the day they released (which are even more powerful than they were as they were published.

You can kinda see this play out if you look at Codexes in "batches" in terms of performance - as they are eventually able to adjust based on feedback received and trends observed, just way further down the line than any of us would like or realistically expect it. If you play 40k games between two books that are within a given "batch", the relative power levels of those books tends to be much more consistent than the relative power level of books from across separate batches. I.E. a game between Necrons and Space Marines or between Grey Knights and Thousand Sons (post-release balance updates notwithstanding) will generally be more balanced than a game between Necrons and Adeptus Custodes or Space Marines and Drukhari.

These are the observed "batches" thus far:
1. Necrons, Space Marines, Death Guard
2. Drukhari, Ad Mech
3. Adepta Sororitas, Grey Knights, Thousand Sons
4. Orks, Genestealer Cults
5. Adeptus Custodes*, Tau, Aeldari, Tyranids
6. Chaos Knights, Imperial Knights

*Custodes are hard to gauge because of the aforementioned day 0 FAQ intended to make them even more powerful.

Batch 1 established the baseline, the balance between these books isn't perfect, but you at least feel like you're playing the same game when you play matches between them.

Batch 2 scaled up the power because while these books playtested against Batch 1 early on, they were also heavily playtested against Batch 3 (which were never playtested against Batch 1 themselves) which resulted in power creep prior to release.

Batch 3 scaled down the power - even though Batch 2 scaled up, Batch 3 was far enough back that they could eventually incorporate feedback from Batch 1 after those books released, and thus could be adjusted and balanced relative to live feedback, whereas Batch 2 was too far along for this to occur, and thus were sent to print before Batch 1 feedback could be taken into consideration.

Batch 4 gradually scaled up the power relative to Batch 3 because they received late playtesting relative to Batch 5 which trended them back towards being OP, but not enough to push them over the edge as they were too far in dev for Batch 5 to fully influence them and the balancing decisions ahd to be made within the context of their earlier playtest performance vs Batch 3 books. (i.e. - "Hmm these batch 4 books seemed decently balanced against the batch 3 books but are struggling against the batch 5 books now, we better give them a couple buffs to try to level it out, but we won't have time to take them back against the batch 3 books to see how they fare, so best be cautious and conservative with it"). Likewise, Batch 4 would have had the benefit of some of the feedback from Batch 2 and early Batch 3 which would have moderated some of the decisionmaking here.

Batch 5 is batch 5, they never were playtested against Batch 1, 2, or 3 properly, but they were far enough back in development that they could incorporate additional feedback from Batch 3 - these codexes were generally regarded as being middling and overbalanced books by the community. That feedback means that the design studio is being encouraged to be more aggressive with their rules writing and to ramp up the power relative to them in order to be more responsive to commuinty feedback (middling and overbalanced doesn't sell the way exciting and OP does, after all), and so Batch 5 is born as a result of the designers pushing more aggressively in order to compensate for Batch 3 being too tame.

Batch 6 - too early to say how they'll perform, but I suspect that they will be toned down relative to Batch 5 as a result of early feedback from Batch 4. Batch 4 feedback (especially with regards to Orks) seems to have scared GW. While Orks are (according to some) not particularly OP they were able to demonstrate the worst failures and exesses of GWs failed game design and balancing concepts in a very public manner by effectively tabling what was until then regarded as the most OP faction in the game being played by someone considered to be one of the communities best players. I think that will translate to GW downtuning the two knights books relative to the Batch 5 books which would have been too far along in dev to benefit from the Batch 4 feedback. The fact that Knights could very easily run amok with the meta if GW doesn't moderate their performance carefully is probably extra incentive for the design studio to end up overbalancing them a bit.

I don't know what books will constitute "Batch 7", or if there is another book that will fall into the "Batch 6" category, but I expect that Batch 7 will end up looking a lot more like Batch 3 as they incorporate further feedback from Batch 5 and the absolute debacle that those books have been.

Even within those batches you can also see trends, Space Marines were more powerful than Necrons, Death Guard were more powerful than Space Marines. That trend continued into Batch 2 with Drukhari being more powerful than Death Guard, but then Ad Mech were less powerful than Drukhari were as the balance issues of the previously released books became more readily apparent, etc.

You can also think of "codex creep" as being less of a "linear" process, and more of a "market" process. Rather than being a constant pattern of escalation, what you actually have is something more akin to a typical stock market with a bull-bear cycle or escalation to the point of correction. I.E. rather than power levels going 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. ad nauseum, the way it actually works is more like 0, 1, 3, 4, 4, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9, 9, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 7, 13, 15, 15, 7, etc. You get a couple of small incremental increases in performance, a sudden surge, and then a 50-60% crash, following by a return to small incremental increases, a sudden surge, and then another 50-60% crash again, etc.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Plus by the time GW starts working on Knights, they are probably starting or already started testing for 10th ed, so their focus, design wise, is going to be some place else.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

tneva82 wrote:Yea SOB codex had rules that literally did nothing when 9e came out. So much for being 9e in mind...

It's marketing speech to make people think they didn't waste money with the book. "It was designed new edition in mind!"
You do know that most of the SOB 8th edition rules that did nothing in 9th were already baked into 9th Edition Core Rules? They were actually perfect evidence of a codex being built with the next edition in mind.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




This idea of batches is reasonable - but I feel you are getting far too into the weeds to make this theory work.

Historically you've typically seen 3~ phases of design philosophy in a 40k edition. First there's the "supposedly toned down baseline". This is quickly supplemented with the "actually forget toning things down, the fans hate boring codexes" and finally, usually with about a year left, we get the "this is obviously bonkers but it will be okay when everyone gets a book like this in the next edition. Honest."

In 8th Sisters and Marines 2.0 showed how you were going to get dramatic bonuses for not souping. (Plus generally more powerful/functional buff architecture throughout.) Its why both kind of got something of a sidegrade compared with others.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






chaos0xomega wrote:
Batch 2 scaled up the power because while these books playtested against Batch 1 early on, they were also heavily playtested against Batch 3 (which were never playtested against Batch 1 themselves) which resulted in power creep prior to release.

Why would GW increase the power level of C-tier Drukhari to match S-tier Grey Knights after already knowing C-tier Drukhari are balanced against C-tier Necrons instead of lowering S-tier Grey Knights to match C-tier Drukhari and thereby making S-tier Grey Knights roughly equal in power relative to C-tier Necrons?
   
 
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