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Made in gb
Moustache-twirling Princeps




United Kingdom

U02dah4 wrote:
but have you honestly ever witnessed a game where no saves were fast rolled.
I have - there're some tournament players who claim knowing how many models are being removed in total affects how you choose which models to remove (but I've never bothered to look into it).
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Leo_the_Rat wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
I'd argue that if an aspect of the required-same characteristics can change , then you cannot legally fast roll. An undefined value - a variable - cannot be said to be equal.

So as you NEED to fast roll, to avoid interminable games, then it's on the active player to make sensible concessions as they're the ones choosing to bring the awkward unit.


By your reasoning you can't fast roll any weapon grouping that includes variable damage. So no Dam d3 could be rolled together nor d3+3 weapons nor Dam d6 weapons. I have yet to see someone call anyone out of fast rolling for this. Now that doesn't mean that no one has but I'd be surprised if it happened.

It would also mean you couldn't fast roll weapons with a variable number of hits like flamers. By your rational you must roll each flamer individually and complete their attack sequence before moving on to the next flamer. I have never seen that happen either.


Any time the sequence of attacks matters, you cannot fast-roll. Technically, you can't fast-roll d3 damage weapons against 2 wound models like marines, but you can partially fast-roll them and then roll damage one by one, because it makes a huge difference whether you roll 1, 3, 1 for damage (one dead marine) or 3,1,1 (two dead marines). If someone hasn't called you out on that, the most likely reason is that they are not aware.

The variable hits argument is missing the point that you aren't rolling HITS, but ATTACKS which then auto-hit. No matter how many attacks you roll for a random attack weapon, their profile (BS, S, AP, dmg) will be the same, barring some additional unit interaction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
beast_gts wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
but have you honestly ever witnessed a game where no saves were fast rolled.
I have - there're some tournament players who claim knowing how many models are being removed in total affects how you choose which models to remove (but I've never bothered to look into it).


I do sometimes when it matters - depending on how many models you lose, it might make more sense to keep champion/nob alive or a special weapon guy or a model within range of an objective marker.
It also matters regularly when half a unit in cover and the other half is not.

With "rending" weapons against model with invulnerable saves you can also take all the wounds with higher AP on models not in cover and then have better odds of saving against non-rending one with models in cover.

You need to be aware when there is a benefit for either player and then either slow-roll or at least take make sure no one benefits from speed rolling.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 10:57:36


I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You can only do the latter if the first models aren't still alive - once you start allocation to a model, that model keeps taking hits until the end of the phase.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




nosferatu1001 wrote:
I'd argue that if an aspect of the required-same characteristics can change , then you cannot legally fast roll. An undefined value - a variable - cannot be said to be equal.


I'm just pointing out the fallacy of the first sentence. The #of attacks roll is not the hit roll but it is an aspect of the attack. It is a variable and as such fulfills the definition of nosfeatu's first part of his quote. Therefore the second part must follow. I however play as you have stated regarding variable #number of attacks. If I have a group of weapons whose only variable is the number of attacks then I group them together after determining how many attacks they make in total.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






nosferatu1001 wrote:
You can only do the latter if the first models aren't still alive - once you start allocation to a model, that model keeps taking hits until the end of the phase.


Of course. I had this come up before AoC with blightlords. I had just one of them in cover and was shot by something that got AP-4 on sixes. He speed-rolled them and informed me of something like four AP-4 hits and ten AP-1 hits. One blightlord without cover took the four AP-4 hits with his 4++ and saved two. He then rolled 3+ saves against the AP-1 hits until he died and then the terminator in cover could use his 2+ for the rest of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
I'd argue that if an aspect of the required-same characteristics can change , then you cannot legally fast roll. An undefined value - a variable - cannot be said to be equal.


I'm just pointing out the fallacy of the first sentence. The #of attacks roll is not the hit roll but it is an aspect of the attack. It is a variable and as such fulfills the definition of nosfeatu's first part of his quote. Therefore the second part must follow. I however play as you have stated regarding variable #number of attacks. If I have a group of weapons whose only variable is the number of attacks then I group them together after determining how many attacks they make in total.


I'm not sure I can follow. Attacks are resolved separately. Determining the number of attacks comes before resolving them.

Let's pick the eldar nightspinner as an example.

It's doomweaver is Heavy 2D6 S7 AP-2 2dmg
It als has a twin shuriken catapult that is Assault 4 S4 AP-1 1 Shuriken(+2 to ap on sixes)

To resolve the doomweaver, you roll 2d6 to see the number of attacks. You roll a 7. You then have 7 attacks which all share the same BS, strength, AP, damage. Therefore you can fast roll 7 dice at once or roll all 7 one after the other.
For your unsaved wounds, your opponent is allowed to roll them all at once and remove casualties.
If there is FNP on the target units and the units, he is not allowed to speed roll that but has to roll them two at a time - the sequence can change how many models die.
Technically, your opponent has less information to decide which units to allocate the wounds to if you don't speed roll, but I feel like that rarely matters in reality.

To resolve the shuriken catapult you have a fixed 4 attacks which might or might not have the same BS, strength, AP and damage. As this depends on the wound roll, you cannot speed roll them as the sequence of the AP-1 and AP-3 hits might change the outcome (as seen in my example above). Your opponent then has to save against each attack you before you roll for the next one.

Of course, you can just speed roll them anyways and allow your opponent to pick the order most beneficial to them.
Same applies if both AP-1 and AP-3 completely ignore the enemy armor or reduce it to their invul save - you can just speed-roll here as well.
If you do, your opponent also can speed-roll their FNP, because for 1 wound models being shot by 1 damage weapons always results in the same amount of casualties (= number of failed FNP rolls), no matter the sequence.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/05/18 13:40:27


I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Leo_the_Rat wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
I'd argue that if an aspect of the required-same characteristics can change , then you cannot legally fast roll. An undefined value - a variable - cannot be said to be equal.


I'm just pointing out the fallacy of the first sentence. The #of attacks roll is not the hit roll but it is an aspect of the attack. It is a variable and as such fulfills the definition of nosfeatu's first part of his quote. Therefore the second part must follow. I however play as you have stated regarding variable #number of attacks. If I have a group of weapons whose only variable is the number of attacks then I group them together after determining how many attacks they make in total.

I think you've misread.

Number of attacks is not required to be the same. It is not one of the required-same char, namely strength, ap and damage.

If an attack can be ap-2 OR ap-4 it does not qualify for fast rolling
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

beast_gts wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
but have you honestly ever witnessed a game where no saves were fast rolled.
I have - there're some tournament players who claim knowing how many models are being removed in total affects how you choose which models to remove (but I've never bothered to look into it).


It could in a hypothetical way but in reality it only matters when the actual differs massively from the probable. And only in one direction. (as in if you save massively better than you should). If the unit dies it doesn't matter and if its the expected result it probably doesn't change anything.

I go to lots of tourneys and you don't normally encounter this if you do I'm doing it on a clock on their time

It's probably more the persons perception it makes a difference than the actuality.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/18 14:47:47


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




There's multiple scenario where fast rolling gives you far too much info - contesting objectives being the obvious one.

It's far more abusive to fast roll where you have Harlie rerolls tho
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.
Citation needed.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There's multiple scenario where fast rolling gives you far too much info - contesting objectives being the obvious one.

It's far more abusive to fast roll where you have Harlie rerolls tho


Not really I have 5 battle sisters on an objective they have 3 models

3 Sisters die it doesn't matter which in anyway.

You would have to have some on the objective and some not for it to even matter and even then your almost always removing the non objective models either way

Sure whether or not you use a CP reroll might vary but only if you were very close to a unit being wiped

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/18 18:48:49


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.
Citation needed.
Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 103, Datasheet Bloodletters, Hellblade Weapon Ability: "Attacks with a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon have a Damage characteristic of 2 instead of 1"
There are plenty of other examples I could find you, and others have already mentioned some of them.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




U02 you've missed the obvious as to whether the slow roll vs fast tells you to waste a cp reroll or not. Similar for harlie rerolls.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.
Citation needed.
Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 103, Datasheet Bloodletters, Hellblade Weapon Ability: "Attacks with a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon have a Damage characteristic of 2 instead of 1"
There are plenty of other examples I could find you, and others have already mentioned some of them.
What you quoted has nothing to do with the fast rolling rules.

I need a citation that proves what you (JakeSiren) said, specifically:
JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.

Basically the citation provided needs to prove that "attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling."

There is not any rules that make attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution ineligible for fast rolling. Unless you have a citation to the contrary.

The fast rolling rules care about the listed items before you roll to hit.

The fast rolling rules state:

"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it's a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it's a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics, they must inflict the same Damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit."

A to hit or would roll changing the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the roll is not taken into consideration in the fast roll rules, as the damage of the weapon used is the same at the point you are going to make attacks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 01:05:24


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.
Citation needed.
Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 103, Datasheet Bloodletters, Hellblade Weapon Ability: "Attacks with a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon have a Damage characteristic of 2 instead of 1"
There are plenty of other examples I could find you, and others have already mentioned some of them.
What you quoted has nothing to do with the fast rolling rules.

I need a citation that proves what you (JakeSiren) said, specifically:
JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.

Basically the citation provided needs to prove that "attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling."

There is not any rules that make attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution ineligible for fast rolling. Unless you have a citation to the contrary.

The fast rolling rules care about the listed items before you roll to hit.

The fast rolling rules state:

"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it's a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it's a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics, they must inflict the same Damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit."

A to hit or would roll changing the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the roll is not taken into consideration in the fast roll rules, as the damage of the weapon used is the same at the point you are going to make attacks.
Oh, you were unclear on what you wanted cited, I can see now how you might have been asking for proof on the fast roll.

The proof is simple, before rolling the dice you don't know if the attacks will have the same strength, armour penetration, or damage characteristic. The best you can say is that they might have the same characteristics. Therefore you cannot fulfil the condition that all fast-rolled attacks must have the same characteristics.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

JakeSiren wrote:
Spoiler:
 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.
Citation needed.
Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 103, Datasheet Bloodletters, Hellblade Weapon Ability: "Attacks with a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon have a Damage characteristic of 2 instead of 1"
There are plenty of other examples I could find you, and others have already mentioned some of them.
What you quoted has nothing to do with the fast rolling rules.

I need a citation that proves what you (JakeSiren) said, specifically:
JakeSiren wrote:
.... Some units have rules that change the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the to wound. It's these attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling.

Basically the citation provided needs to prove that "attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution that makes them ineligible for fast rolling."

There is not any rules that make attacks where the weapons characteristic can change mid-resolution ineligible for fast rolling. Unless you have a citation to the contrary.

The fast rolling rules care about the listed items before you roll to hit.

The fast rolling rules state:

"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it's a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it's a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength and Armour Penetration characteristics, they must inflict the same Damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit."

A to hit or would roll changing the weapons damage characteristic after rolling the roll is not taken into consideration in the fast roll rules, as the damage of the weapon used is the same at the point you are going to make attacks.
Oh, you were unclear on what you wanted cited, I can see now how you might have been asking for proof on the fast roll.

The proof is simple, before rolling the dice you don't know if the attacks will have the same strength, armour penetration, or damage characteristic. The best you can say is that they might have the same characteristics. Therefore you cannot fulfil the condition that all fast-rolled attacks must have the same characteristics.
That's not proof. That is an assertion that lacks any proof. You need to use actual rules statements to make a proof.

The fact is all attacks of a Shuriken Cannon made by a model have the same Ballistic Skill (the model's), are Strength 6, AP -1, Damage 2, and have the Shuriken ability. The rules for Fast Rolling in no way stipulate that you cannot fast roll if one of the Abilities that the attacks share might change the Strength, AP, or Damage of the attack. They therefore are eligible to be Fast Rolled.

If you feel my proof is incorrect, please show us a rule or an actual flaw in logic that says I am wrong.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
Oh, you were unclear on what you wanted cited, I can see now how you might have been asking for proof on the fast roll.

The proof is simple, before rolling the dice you don't know if the attacks will have the same strength, armour penetration, or damage characteristic. The best you can say is that they might have the same characteristics. Therefore you cannot fulfil the condition that all fast-rolled attacks must have the same characteristics.
Actually, at the time you go to fast roll, the Bloodletters do have the same characteristics, So you can fast roll.

I do not understand why you say "that they might have the same characteristics" when I looked at the Dataslate and all Codex: Chaos Daemons, pg 103, Datasheet Bloodletters have the same Strength characteristic (User), Armour penetration characteristic (-3), and they inflict the same Damage (1)

They do not do 2 damage unless you meet a certain condition, which is not met when determining if fast rolling is allowed. Ergo, fast rolling is allowed since the Bloodletters have the same Strength characteristic (User), Armour penetration characteristic (-3), and they inflict the same Damage (1)


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




It appears that my argument is not convincing for you. At least inappropriately fast rolling in this situation potentially allows the defender to gain a considerable advantage over the attacker.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




"They MUST inflict the same damage" is t fulfilled if the damage is either damage 1 or damage 2, because it does not state "before you roll9. Inflict requires that the damage inflicted must be the same.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/19 08:11:29


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

JakeSiren wrote:
It appears that my argument is not convincing for you. At least inappropriately fast rolling in this situation potentially allows the defender to gain a considerable advantage over the attacker.
Well, your argument does not follow the rules, so of course it is not convincing.

As an attacker, you have the choice to fast roll or not...

If the defender gains a considerable advantage over the attacker with fast rolling, then just do not opt to fast roll. Simple. You do not ever have to fast roll, it is optional.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"They MUST inflict the same damage" is t fulfilled if the damage is either damage 1 or damage 2, because it does not state "before you roll9. Inflict requires that the damage inflicted must be the same.
They DO inflict the same damage. The damage they inflict is 1, it says so on the Dataslate.

The damage is not "1 or damage 2". The Dataslate says the Damage is 1, therefore the damage is 1.

When you determine if fast rolling is allowed, they do 1 damage. That is what is listed.

The fact that they might be able to do more than one is not taken into consideration when you determine if they get to fast roll, because when you determine if you can fast roll, they do 1 damage, and not 2.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






DeathReaper, "Inflict damage" is a defined term and that definition does not agree with yours.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 10:09:12


I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




As above. Even if it wasn't a defined term, I can prove they DONT inflict the same damage. That the rule isn't on the dataslate is completely irrelevant to the requirement that they MUST inflict the same damage.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

How much damage they inflict is unknown, because thats determined when rolling dice. Because of that you cannot fast roll bloodletter attacks. The damage characteristic is not the same as inflict damage, in this case.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Honestly, the less you fast roll the fewer edge case problems that shouldn’t exist you create.

If you fast roll you accept certain concessions.

If you fast roll things the rules don’t permit, like damage or AP that might change, or like saves, you’re into the weeds and need to find a way through with your opponent because you left the rules behind!

It takes less time to slow roll things that matter than fast roll when you shouldn’t, argue, figure out how to resolve this broken area you shouldn’t be in, move on with bad feelings because someone had unintended benefit etc etc.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't think there's any basis for it - but we always just fast rolled, and then the defender can choose to fast roll all modified saves or unmodified saves - then the other. D3 damage into say 2 wound models has to be rolled separately. This does I guess give the defender certain advantages - but it seems likely to be modest outside of the most skewed scenarios.

This is admittedly clearly wrong when looking at something like Incubi - where you both modify the AP and the damage. But I've never rolled or been asked to roll the 16~ dice individually, just because the order that AP-4 3 damage hit arguably matters. Which I guess is just bad rules all round, but it keeps things simple.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




If you bring a unit you can't legit fast roll, that's on you. If you need to fast roll to not time out, then you're going to have to give concession to the defender. You don't get the best of both worlds.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






nosferatu1001 wrote:
If you bring a unit you can't legit fast roll, that's on you. If you need to fast roll to not time out, then you're going to have to give concession to the defender. You don't get the best of both worlds.


There are plenty of ways to roll multiple dice quickly while maintaining the sequence of rolls. Colored dice, left-to-right and dice apps for example.

I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Oh absolutely, I'm not saying there isn't. But my point stands that if you can't legit fast roll, you either slow roll or you give concessions to the defender.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






nosferatu1001 wrote:
Oh absolutely, I'm not saying there isn't. But my point stands that if you can't legit fast roll, you either slow roll or you give concessions to the defender.


Agree.

I present you, the the most misquoted part of all 40k lore:
Genetor Lukas Anzion in Codex Orks, 3rd edition wrote:[...] To the Ork, the only conceivable explanation for this is that the vehicle travels faster because it is red. However, as disturbing as it sounds, these 'facts' become true. Red Ork vehicles do travel perceptibly faster than those of other colors, even when all other design aspects are nominally the same. Similarly, many captured Ork weapons and items of equipment should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork. I believe this is linked to the strong psychic aura surrounding all Orkoids and have developed the Anzion Theorem of Orkoid Mechamorphic Resonant Kinetics. I theorise that many Ork inventions work because the Orks themselves think that they should work. The strong telekinetic abilities of the Ork's subconscious somehow ensures that the machinery or weaponry functions as desired.

This is literally all GW ever wrote on this topic - everything else is meme knowledge 
   
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Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Jidmah wrote:DeathReaper, "Inflict damage" is a defined term and that definition does not agree with yours.

p5freak wrote:How much damage they inflict is unknown, because thats determined when rolling dice. Because of that you cannot fast roll bloodletter attacks. The damage characteristic is not the same as inflict damage, in this case.

I'm curious as to what you two think that definition is? The only one I can find is inferred from the Inflict Damage stage of an attack where it states "The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack". This means an attack inflicts damage equal to its Damage characteristic.

For a Bloodletter that value is 1. An ability might change that, but that is find for Fast Rolling since the presence of an Ability is accounted for by that rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you bring a unit you can't legit fast roll, that's on you. If you need to fast roll to not time out, then you're going to have to give concession to the defender. You don't get the best of both worlds.
You are arguing that you can't legit fast roll an attack that follows all the rules for Fast Rolling? That's an interesting argument. So I take it you believe that no attack with variable damage can be fast rolled? That seems to be the implication of your arguments about not knowing the final Damage characteristic when making an attack.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Jidmah wrote:
DeathReaper, "Inflict damage" is a defined term and that definition does not agree with yours.
"Inflict damage" is a defined term, it has its own section in the book (Though it is not in the rules terms glossary).

The fast rolling rules do not say "Inflict damage" it says the attacks "must inflict the same Damage" (I am not sure that changes anything, but accuracy matters).

However P221 (or 18 in the PDF rules) under "5. INFLICT DAMAGE" it says "The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack."

The Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon in question is 1. This is proven on the Bloodletter Dataslate.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above. Even if it wasn't a defined term, I can prove they DONT inflict the same damage. That the rule isn't on the dataslate is completely irrelevant to the requirement that they MUST inflict the same damage.
Except they do. The Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon in question is 1.

 p5freak wrote:
How much damage they inflict is unknown, because thats determined when rolling dice. Because of that you cannot fast roll bloodletter attacks. The damage characteristic is not the same as inflict damage, in this case.
False.

How much damage they inflict is known, it is literally printed on the Dataslate...

The Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon in question is 1.

P.S. Page 7 in the PDF, or Page 202 in the BRB rules proves that the damage characteristic is printed in a certain place on the Dataslate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/19 16:25:33


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