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 Thadin wrote:
While more durability is beneficial to the game, the GW implementation of Smoke launchers on vehicles always rubbed me the wrong way. How would a smoke screen that only covers the vehicle make it harder to hit? Just aim at the smoke cloud. If it projected even a little bit of an aura, that would make more sense to me, allowing other units to hide in it as well, making it seem more like a cloud.

It’s an abstraction. Even if it did just cloak the vehicle, it would make it harder to pick out weak points.

IIRC in the real old days it tossed out multiple templates that messed with shooting. But that was RT/2nd edition, so memory is fuzzy.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Krak is easy. Just allow any model equipped with Krak grenades to make 1 attack with a Krak grenade at their base WS against [VEHICLES] in melee. Oh, and let Guardsmen have Krak grenades again.

Against Vehicle or Monster - let's not regress to Monsters being Vehicles+ again, especially if the attacker is still going to have to use their WS on the attack.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Krak is easy. Just allow any model equipped with Krak grenades to make 1 attack with a Krak grenade at their base WS against [VEHICLES] in melee. Oh, and let Guardsmen have Krak grenades again.

Against Vehicle or Monster - let's not regress to Monsters being Vehicles+ again, especially if the attacker is still going to have to use their WS on the attack.

Yeah, agreed. Same for weapons like chainfists, they should get their more consistent damage against [VEHICLES] and [MONSTERS].

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Krak is easy. Just allow any model equipped with Krak grenades to make 1 attack with a Krak grenade at their base WS against [VEHICLES] in melee. Oh, and let Guardsmen have Krak grenades again.

Against Vehicle or Monster - let's not regress to Monsters being Vehicles+ again, especially if the attacker is still going to have to use their WS on the attack.

Yeah, agreed. Same for weapons like chainfists, they should get their more consistent damage against [VEHICLES] and [MONSTERS].

nonono, you see, chainsaws are much better when cutting metal than when cutting flesh

Im going to second the idea of making grenades an abstract thing again.

Maybe it can negate the bonuses from cover for frag, or it can allow for a single high strength hit on a vehicle in close combat. Theres definitely a lot of places they could with it.

I'd love to see a suppression mechanic added in that only specific weapons like mortars and grenades (and the sad Grenade Launcher) can trigger. Maybe it could cause a flat -1 to hit in CC for one turn, prevent overwatch (which isn't exactly used a lot these days but it could definitely do work).

Alternatively grenades could become a keyword stratagem like SMOKESCREEN and have varied effects like causing mortal wounds to vehicles/monsters with krak or making a unit fight last with frag (for a hefty fee of course)

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why would a frag grenade ignore cover and auto-wound when a battlecannon doesn't?

I'd argue they lobbed the grenade into the trench/bush so they get less effect from cover?

Obviously grenades need something but that's definitely not it LOL

Assault grenades (=frag grenades, stickbombs and similar): unit attacked in melee gets -1 to its hitrolls because they're disordered from being attacked with grenades

Defensive grenades (= Blight grenades, Tau grenades and similar): attacker doesn't get to hit first

Krak grenades: as people mentioned, a single attack per model in CC vs vehicles/ monsters, and please make them D2.

I made the Assault grenade a defensive bonus because lethality in the game is too high already, we don't need vortex bombs being thrown everywhere to make humble grenades viable.
You may keep the current shooting profiles additionally, because in the end it just feels cool rolling for that single grenade guy, despite it hardly doing anything.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Has anyone ever opted for, instead of shooting, moving closer and throwing Frag Grenades? Krak Sorta have a slightly better value, but the grenade system is currently worthless. Most all shooting is generally always the better option.

Pretty late to the discussion but:

Bolt guns/rifles are always better than one frag grenade that may only be one die hitting on a 3, and more often than not wounding on a 4.

I don't know what the math is for how many "shots" I'd need from a frag to equal a bolt weapon. But regardless I'd opt to just make a 0 Cp stratagem to allow a whole unit to throw grenades.

Doesn't seem game breaking since technically you can only use a stratagem once per turn so if you get a squad within throwing range you should get a reward.

Throwing a single grenade always had a wonky feeling. I'd wager tau flash grenades would get used more often than just shooting, maybe.

*Looks up the massive record of Necron grena-*
Oh right, we get nothing.

 Blndmage wrote:
*Looks up the massive record of Necron grena-*
Oh right, we get nothing.

Not since 3rd edition, at least.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
*Looks up the massive record of Necron grena-*
Oh right, we get nothing.

Not since 3rd edition, at least.

No grenades in 3rd


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Assault grenades (=frag grenades, stickbombs and similar): unit attacked in melee gets -1 to its hitrolls because they're disordered from being attacked with grenades

Defensive grenades (= Blight grenades, Tau grenades and similar): attacker doesn't get to hit first

Krak grenades: as people mentioned, a single attack per model in CC vs vehicles/ monsters, and please make them D2.

I made the Assault grenade a defensive bonus because lethality in the game is too high already, we don't need vortex bombs being thrown everywhere to make humble grenades viable.
You may keep the current shooting profiles additionally, because in the end it just feels cool rolling for that single grenade guy, despite it hardly doing anything.

Multiple Kraks in melee is kinda silly, and I've been saying that ever since you could do that

 fraser1191 wrote:

I don't know what the math is for how many "shots" I'd need from a frag to equal a bolt weapon. But regardless I'd opt to just make a 0 Cp stratagem to allow a whole unit to throw grenades.

Rough math:

T3:
- Bolter: 0.593 unsaved wounds.
- Frag grenade assuming 3 shots: 0.667 unsaved wounds.

T4:
- Bolter: 0.444
- Frag grenade assuming 4 shots: 0.593 unsaved wounds.

T5:
- Bolter: 0.296
- Frag grenade assuming 2 shots: 0.296

Assuming the bolter is always AP0, you’re getting more damage from a grenade against T3 66% of the time. Against T4, you’re getting more out of grenade 50% of the time. Against T5 you’re the same or more from a grenade 83% of the time.

The biggest issue is the range and rolling low. If you roll less than any of the above assumptions you should have just shot the bolter. If you’re under tactical doctrine or have a better bolter than the regular one then just fire the bolter.

I don't think Grenades should be "autohitting" but I feel like they should have better odds at hitting something than a flamer.

Also, I think your math is off.

So if Grenade does 3 shots, 1 hits, and it's better than likely (3+) that they save the wound. Where are you getting .593 unsaved wounds? I apologize If my math is off right now, I'm just not following.

As for grenades, would making them a "special form of blast" be possible? Auto does 2 shots at anything under 5 model unit, and 5+ model unit does max shots?

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Assault grenades (=frag grenades, stickbombs and similar): unit attacked in melee gets -1 to its hitrolls because they're disordered from being attacked with grenades

Defensive grenades (= Blight grenades, Tau grenades and similar): attacker doesn't get to hit first

Krak grenades: as people mentioned, a single attack per model in CC vs vehicles/ monsters, and please make them D2.

I made the Assault grenade a defensive bonus because lethality in the game is too high already, we don't need vortex bombs being thrown everywhere to make humble grenades viable.
You may keep the current shooting profiles additionally, because in the end it just feels cool rolling for that single grenade guy, despite it hardly doing anything.

I think this is the right general direction to go, although I'm not sure about those specifics. Defensive grenades specifically could let an army wreck a glasscannon melee army that relies on swinging first to be effective. Although I like how assault and defensive grenades don't cancel each other out.

I also like the idea of letting grenade launchers put down buffs/debuffs/smoke screen tokens.

Eldar plasma grenades are actually probably fine as-is? My dire avenger exarch with a pistol or shield instead of a catapult likes having some grenades handy, and a plasma grenade is generally better than a wych's splinter pistol.

I'd love for grenades to have abstract effects that represent their broad capabilities, but not in a game where we care about exactly what shape of power weapon an officer is carrying.

Resolving individually thrown grenades as weapons is in line with the current level of detail/abstraction of the rest of the game, and to me it would seem strange to return to simple unit-wide effects for grenades when every other offensive weapon is explicitly modeled.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Assault grenades (=frag grenades, stickbombs and similar): unit attacked in melee gets -1 to its hitrolls because they're disordered from being attacked with grenades

Defensive grenades (= Blight grenades, Tau grenades and similar): attacker doesn't get to hit first

Krak grenades: as people mentioned, a single attack per model in CC vs vehicles/ monsters, and please make them D2.

I made the Assault grenade a defensive bonus because lethality in the game is too high already, we don't need vortex bombs being thrown everywhere to make humble grenades viable.
You may keep the current shooting profiles additionally, because in the end it just feels cool rolling for that single grenade guy, despite it hardly doing anything.

I think this is the right general direction to go, although I'm not sure about those specifics. Defensive grenades specifically could let an army wreck a glasscannon melee army that relies on swinging first to be effective. Although I like how assault and defensive grenades don't cancel each other out.

You have a point, I think Plague Marines would become pretty annoying with this .
A different idea to stay within the 9th paradigm could be:
When charging a unit with Defensive grenades you can't reroll or modify your charge rolls.

Wow, people really seem to have an issue with getting charged by boyz.

Delete them from the game. There is too much stuff in the game, we all knw it, so some of it has to go. Grenades is start, they won't be missed.

leerm02 wrote:
Wouldn't another easy fix just be to remove the whole "you can either shoot or throw grenades but not both"? I mean, you can still keep the only-one-grenade thing too, but this would give you just a little extra oomph if you move a squad close enough. It would be a sorta bonus attack for being in close range but not melee (which isn't exactly how real grenades are used, but 40k doesn't much resemble real combat anyway).

Am I missing something that would make this totally broken?

This has always seemed to me to be the obvious, simplest, lowest impact way to make Grenades somewhat relevant.

Throwing 1 grenade for free is a very minor buff, but then at least your regularly see them! And it might encourage units to consider movement a bit more to add that extra bit of grenade damage in.

I liked it when grenades were an abstract unit rule rather then a weapon.

For example...

Frag Grenades: When an enemy unit declares a charge against this unit, roll a D6, if the roll is a 6, the charging unit has -1" to their charge move. Add 1 to the die roll of this unit is in defensible terrain and has Set to Defend.

Krak Grenades: When a unit equipment with krak grenades declares a charge move, if the target unit is in defensible terrain, that unit cannot Hold Steady.

 catbarf wrote:
I'd love for grenades to have abstract effects that represent their broad capabilities, but not in a game where we care about exactly what shape of power weapon an officer is carrying.

Resolving individually thrown grenades as weapons is in line with the current level of detail/abstraction of the rest of the game, and to me it would seem strange to return to simple unit-wide effects for grenades when every other offensive weapon is explicitly modeled.

Broad effects for grenades are still used, but they also rely on stratagems, tangle foot and smoke launchers/grenades immediately spring to mind.

Considering the countless variations of "This unit deletes your ability to do that" that currently exists in the game, I'm not interested in adding MORE special rules ontop of an already bloated weapons roster, especially for extremely niche weapons which are never used.

Smoke grenades and Tanglefoot grenades were great, until factions became suddenly immune to their effects. Plague Marines flat out remove Tanglefoot's effect, and Smoke grenades were devalued as soon as factions started being able to stack mortal wounds or Auto-wounds. What good is -1 to hit on a rhino when you don't even have to roll to hit?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering the countless variations of "This unit deletes your ability to do that" that currently exists in the game, I'm not interested in adding MORE special rules ontop of an already bloated weapons roster, especially for extremely niche weapons which are never used.

Smoke grenades and Tanglefoot grenades were great, until factions became suddenly immune to their effects. Plague Marines flat out remove Tanglefoot's effect, and Smoke grenades were devalued as soon as factions started being able to stack mortal wounds or Auto-wounds. What good is -1 to hit on a rhino when you don't even have to roll to hit?

man you're being dumb.

ONE faction whose whole shtick is being slow but unstoppable not being stopped by one wargear in your army doesnt make it suddenly useless.
If you make smoke provide Obscuring instead of -1 to hit (like we suggested), then it also protects you from smites (which is like 2.5 factions in the game)

Just make them standard weapons any model can use, not limited to one per unit.

Maybe roll them in with pistol rules. Let a model throw a grenade and fire a pistol. Pistols are basically useless most of the time. 9th edition lethality basically means a model is often dead by the time you have the chance to fire it inside engagement range.

For simplicity why not lump frag and krak grenades together and just say:

one model per unit can use a grenade instead of shooting. Heavy 1, Range 6". On a hit, the target suffers 1 mortal wound.

it's cinematic, effective, gets less effective if you move (to balance it). Guardsmen facing down a marine? lob a grenade. Mrine facing a tank? lob a grenade.

Grenades are, cinematically, an effective weapon, and I don't think it would be too bad to have each squad able to inflict a mortal wound on a 4+ (or so) to a unit within 6" by throwing a grenade at it. Big units won't care, small units might lose a model for it. It's 100% better than shooting a lasgun though, unless you're shooting gretchin!

 addnid wrote:
Delete them from the game. There is too much stuff in the game, we all knw it, so some of it has to go. Grenades is start, they won't be missed.

Don't agree. Yes, there is too much stuff, but its elsewhere (strats, army bonuses, relics, traits, etc, etc, etc).
Basic gear like grenades needs to stay and be useful, otherwise the game goes the same route it went when it stripped out things like psychology and pinning for 'lose to lose more' 'morale' mechanics.

 oni wrote:
I liked it when grenades were an abstract unit rule rather then a weapon.

For example...

Frag Grenades: When an enemy unit declares a charge against this unit, roll a D6, if the roll is a 6, the charging unit has -1" to their charge move. Add 1 to the die roll of this unit is in defensible terrain and has Set to Defend.

Krak Grenades: When a unit equipment with krak grenades declares a charge move, if the target unit is in defensible terrain, that unit cannot Hold Steady.

I like these. I feel frag grenades should have an offensive benefit too, perhaps that successful overwatch hits have to be re-rolled?

I don't think it would be unreasonable to do this and keep them as niche ranged weapons. Could even tie the charge phase benefits to being hit by grenades in the shooting phase within the last turn (grenades would probably need a 9" range for this to work to hit deepstrike charges etc., would give long charges the advantage of being out of grenade range).

I do wish 40k had a suppression mechanic though.

What about armies that don't have grenades? We're just left with, again, no options.

 Blndmage wrote:
What about armies that don't have grenades? We're just left with, again, no options.

I mean, I think the assumption is that any reworked grenade rules would have an associated points cost baked into the unit with the grenades. So the advantage of your army having no grenades is that you didn't pay extra points for grenades.

Right now, units with frag grenades are presumably paying X points for them. So if frag grenades became more powerful, X would increase.

But yeah, I think I'd generally prefer for things like frag/plasma grenades to go back to being special rules. That said, it's probably perfectly reasonable for other grenades to just be weapons. I'd love for my swooping hawks to regain access to haywire grenades that they can use to go after tanks. Ditto giving my drukhkari and harly squad leaders access to that same haywire grenade profile as an X point upgrade. I'd be perfectly happy with fusion/melta bombs getting tweaked so that every fire dragon in a squad can slap one onto the enemy like in the old days.

So I guess the real problem to be solved is frag/krak/plasma and maybe haywire grenades. . The first three just don't feel impactful enough to warrant the time it takes to resolve them. My inclination would be to make krak stronger and to turn frag/plasma/stikk bombz into some sort of special rule.

Haywire grenades probably just need to be reintroduced in something like their pre-stratagem forms. They were definitely victims of GW stratagem-ifying things that didn't need to be stratagems.

Yes


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:
I liked it when grenades were an abstract unit rule rather then a weapon.

For example...

Frag Grenades: When an enemy unit declares a charge against this unit, roll a D6, if the roll is a 6, the charging unit has -1" to their charge move. Add 1 to the die roll of this unit is in defensible terrain and has Set to Defend.

Krak Grenades: When a unit equipment with krak grenades declares a charge move, if the target unit is in defensible terrain, that unit cannot Hold Steady.

Beautiful.
Having them be an optional utility upgrade instead of a 6th finger would be super.