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Iconoclast destroyers are apparently famous for that reason. That it is very easy to mock them up as other ships of a similar size.

Presumably, that's one of the main reasons lots of pirate types use them.

Why do navigators have to come from navigator houses? Aren’t they just patchers with a certain type of power and they have setup houses to feed navigators to the imperium rather than be fed to the corpse emperor?

Other psychers could be found with the same abilities and selectively bred by nefarious people.

There are also demon worlds and everything in between where controlled people can be obtained.

I think imperial authority is subjective depending one where you are in the galaxy. I aldehyde thought the idea that one of the necromunda houses could keep a secret STC and produce unique technology without the ad mech tearing up the planet to find it broke the setting. But I was told I was wrong, lol, so if that can happen anything can. And to be fair 40K is a bit of a universe where anything can happen it’s sci fi fantasy.

The Iconoclast is actually more like the Cobra destroyer. Small, fast, maneuverable, while being reasonably well armed (30cm range Firepower 3 weapon batteries) vs. a Cobra's (30cm Firepower 1 weapon battery and Strength 2 torpedo tubes). Such designs make sense both for pirates and as patrol ships against piracy. The physical appearance of the Iconoclast is also a nod and reference to the multiple smokestack funnel destroyers of WW1.

Transport ships, armed transports, and Q-ships all are slow by comparison. Armed transports and Q-ships match or exceed in weapons and armor, but remain very slow and clumsy to turn by comparison.

mrFickle wrote:
Why do navigators have to come from navigator houses? Aren’t they just patchers with a certain type of power and they have setup houses to feed navigators to the imperium rather than be fed to the corpse emperor?

Other psychers could be found with the same abilities and selectively bred by nefarious people.

There are also demon worlds and everything in between where controlled people can be obtained.

I think imperial authority is subjective depending one where you are in the galaxy. I aldehyde thought the idea that one of the necromunda houses could keep a secret STC and produce unique technology without the ad mech tearing up the planet to find it broke the setting. But I was told I was wrong, lol, so if that can happen anything can. And to be fair 40K is a bit of a universe where anything can happen it’s sci fi fantasy.

My understanding is that navigators are not just psychers trained/gifted with specific powers, but a stable mutation (so technically abhuman) that is passed on to their children. Hence the houses and families.

Don’t forget the 3rd option besides charted/short jumps and navigators: asking the locals in the warp for directions. Aka sorcery and pacts with the dark gods. Which does give a leg up to chaos pirates.

 Nevelon wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Why do navigators have to come from navigator houses? Aren’t they just patchers with a certain type of power and they have setup houses to feed navigators to the imperium rather than be fed to the corpse emperor?

Other psychers could be found with the same abilities and selectively bred by nefarious people.

There are also demon worlds and everything in between where controlled people can be obtained.

I think imperial authority is subjective depending one where you are in the galaxy. I aldehyde thought the idea that one of the necromunda houses could keep a secret STC and produce unique technology without the ad mech tearing up the planet to find it broke the setting. But I was told I was wrong, lol, so if that can happen anything can. And to be fair 40K is a bit of a universe where anything can happen it’s sci fi fantasy.

My understanding is that navigators are not just psychers trained/gifted with specific powers, but a stable mutation (so technically abhuman) that is passed on to their children. Hence the houses and families.

Don’t forget the 3rd option besides charted/short jumps and navigators: asking the locals in the warp for directions. Aka sorcery and pacts with the dark gods. Which does give a leg up to chaos pirates.

I stand corrected and I do now remember that you are right it’s a stable mutation but I think that makes it easier for a family or or just some navigators to elope and make a living on the black market. Or worse kidnapped although I’d expect a kidnapped navigator could quite easily broadcast their position to other navigators.

Going back to the OP I think there must be a lot of self sufficient societies currently building their own warp capable vessels in the dark imperium, although we have see that over time that ability gets lost

Navigators are a specific type of mutant. They have the Navigator gene, which gives them their massive psychic powers and most importantly a 3rd Eye which can look into the warp and let them steer a ship through it.

They're not strictly necessary, but if you want to go any great distance with any precision they are important.

If you got a hold of a few navigators you could breed your own Navigator house of course, but. again. Navigators are hideously powerful psykers. They can destroy your mind just by looking at you with their 3rd eye, which is why they cover them up with something most of the time. It's tough to force someone with that kind of power to become a slave. They're either going to be in charge or a partner, not a pawn.

Its also worth noting that Navigators only produce Navigator offspring with other Navigators. They're forced to reproduce with their own kind. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Navigator

Interesting, maybe a lot of pirate captains are rogue navigators. I believe they are prone to the type of decadence that would suit a pirate captain.

Regular humans would have to be pretty open-minded about having a mutant, let alone a Psyker as their leader.
It is however very easy to bribe, drug, threaten, or blackmail someone. Pirates will very easily be able to do at least one of those things, it is sort of in the job description.

 Gert wrote:
Regular humans would have to be pretty open-minded about having a mutant, let alone a Psyker as their leader.

They don't have to be open minded, just fearful of what that psyker can do. If I saw Jimmy get turned into goo just because a psyker took off his headband and looked at him I would have zero issues taking orders from the psyker dude with the headband.

Depends really, witch hunting mobs are a thing and if you just watched a Psyker kill one of the crew, you and your friends might be angry enough to lynch them. A good dose of fear is good but murder by a mutant is a stretch most Imperial raised people won't go for unless they are waaaay down the path of heresy.

 Gert wrote:
Regular humans would have to be pretty open-minded about having a mutant, let alone a Psyker as their leader.
It is however very easy to bribe, drug, threaten, or blackmail someone. Pirates will very easily be able to do at least one of those things, it is sort of in the job description.

This is only because of imperial dogma though, telling everyone to be afraid of anything different so that they can maintain control.

I’m sure that on the fringes of imperial space there are all sorts fraternising because people will learn that there are advantages to dealing with mutants and xenos. The inquisition know this, so one sure regular humans can figure it out aswell

Well yes on the outer reaches of Imperial control people are likely to be a bit less dogmatic. But pirates don't only operate on the fringes of the Imperium, in fact it would be stupid to do so with the lack of merchant shipping.

the lovely thing about the Imperium, that almost all of it is "on the fringes". There are such big empty areas between Imperial worlds and sectors, that pirates must have a field day.

Yes, there is a lot of mutant hate dogma in the Imperium. But there are also a LOT of mutants. Much of the lower population of hive cities or the workforces of mines and industry will be mutants.

Likewise, anybody who is on a space ship is going to be aware that the Navigator is a mutant, and the lower decks are probably full of them as well. Mutants are something to be feared, but they are also something that is fairly common.

And again, "hideously powerful psyker". A mob coming after a Navigator is most going to turn to a bunch of charred corpses very quickly. The Warp Eye is no joke. Its basically an on-demand zero effort flamethrower.

In terms of Navigators? They existed pre-Crusade, and at least some would’ve gone off world as a result.

So whilst the Navigator Houses are the Imperium’s source, it’s entirely feasible there are other sources out there, including renegade or at the very least mercenary groups.

It’s also worth considering that Traitor CSM can navigate The Warp using Sorcerors, so in theory, you could have Mortal Sorcerors/Magi doing much the same.

The four broad categories of Navigator House are as follows:

- Magisterial Houses are those most closely related to the original Navigator families, they are the wealthiest and most traditional and will have holdings in the Navigator's Quarter on Terra. Due to the maintenance of their bloodlines, they are less susceptible to the symptomatic mutations of being a Navigator.

- Nomadic Houses have relinquished their properties and have taken entirely to spaceborne lifestyles; they are perhaps the most skilled of Navigators but have difficulty relating to planetary cultures.

- Shrouded Houses have somehow lost their status in relation to other houses and exist in a state of decline; sometimes referred to as Beggar Houses by other Navigators. Individual Navigators have little support from their own families, making them quite resourceful, while their Warp Eye often becomes more perceptive.

- Renegade Houses are those families that have been rejected by the Paternova either by turning from their ancient traditions or have been exiled due to conflicts with other houses. They are unable to maintain their genetic purity and often suffer the most mutation but can also benefit from new strains that might occur.

So what if the navigator has a third arm and a couple of extra ears instead of nipples? You're making a killing stealing from traders and the like. It'll be grand.

The crazy warp mutant is more mutanty than normal… what could possibly go wrong

In terms of ship building and real world stuff?

Once you have a stable orbital platform, and reliable surface-orbit technology, it’s going to be an awful lot easier than we might think. We can reasonably infer that infrastructure is not in fact new. Yes it will require maintenance and upkeep, but that is relatively easy compared to putting it up there in the first place.

Remember most, if not all worlds in the Imperium will have a centralised economy. And a unified, vested interest in interstellar travel.

So with the entire planetary economy in one set of hands, and the majority of the necessary infrastructure? Building even a mile long spacefaring craft probably isn’t anywhere near as hard as it seems to us today.

Add in they’re built from largely long established blueprints, and the difficulty likely reduces even further. That of course largely covers system patrol craft and commercial type vessels.

The Imperium of course has dedicated naval shipyards for maintenance and construction. The necessary materials and skilled personnel are shipped in as needed.

Chaos? Well…we have to assume they have some form of shipyard. But, being inherently less cohesive than The Imperium, that involves dealing with the owners, including the Dark Mechanicum (god that needs a better name already) or potentially worse. So as well as the materials to build your ship, you’ll need some form of…erm…let’s euphemistically call it “coin of the realm” to pay for those with the know how to put it all together.

Of course, Chaos has less qualms about salvage than The Imperium, who likely wouldn’t attempt to take a Chaos ship as prize.

Sure, the Dark Mechanicum are likely to rip out the best stuff for themselves and replace it with “it’ll do” analogous replacements, but unless your powerful enough to command their respect (or, possibly, have a second ship they can do what they want with entirely) there’s sod all you can do about it,

And yeah, I guess there is the same risk within The Imperium. Because let’s face it outside of The Mechanicus and Space Marine Chapters, few are going to be able to spot what’s a crappy, 2nd hand, spit string and polish replacement for what was previously a perfectly servicable and unfathomably rare part pinched for the Mechanicus’ own purposes. And like Chaos, so long as it still goes vroom and boom, you probs wouldn’t care that much.

Thanks for all the input. Now I have a better idea for what I have in mind for my homebrew fluff. It's a system in the Segmentum Pacificus that stayed loyal during the night of a thousand rebellions. Their local SDF was practically destroyed down to a couple of System Defense boats and naturally there are also few warp capable Imperial ships currently free, so I was thinking about how, when and from where replacements would likely come.

They don't have orbitals around their main planet, but a relatively large repair, refuel and drydock facility around a gas giant. So from what I take from your information I guess the logical thing would be that they start building SDF boats there immediatly. For the meantime they might send an application to the navy if they could station some ships in system, at least until they are done. Then I think it would not be too far fetched to imagine a "second hand" market for worn out former navy and trader vessels that are not warp-worthy any more. Something a system could buy relatively cheap and transform into a monitor for system defense in the drydock. Top it of with haggling with the next Forgeworld able to build such and you might restore a SDF over a century or so.

Another question for those having the BFG source material or just a better idea of numbers: what size would be normal for an SDF of a medium sized (maybe 2-3 billion people) system? Is something along the line of a hand full of Monitors + some dozen defense boats and a hundred fighters roughly in the right ball park?

That will depend on its importance.

A system like ours right now? Probably lightly defended, as there’s bugger all here to protect by comparison to say, Ultramar’s 500 planets.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Thanks for all the input. Now I have a better idea for what I have in mind for my homebrew fluff. It's a system in the Segmentum Pacificus that stayed loyal during the night of a thousand rebellions. Their local SDF was practically destroyed down to a couple of System Defense boats and naturally there are also few warp capable Imperial ships currently free, so I was thinking about how, when and from where replacements would likely come.

They don't have orbitals around their main planet, but a relatively large repair, refuel and drydock facility around a gas giant. So from what I take from your information I guess the logical thing would be that they start building SDF boats there immediatly. For the meantime they might send an application to the navy if they could station some ships in system, at least until they are done. Then I think it would not be too far fetched to imagine a "second hand" market for worn out former navy and trader vessels that are not warp-worthy any more. Something a system could buy relatively cheap and transform into a monitor for system defense in the drydock. Top it of with haggling with the next Forgeworld able to build such and you might restore a SDF over a century or so.

Another question for those having the BFG source material or just a better idea of numbers: what size would be normal for an SDF of a medium sized (maybe 2-3 billion people) system? Is something along the line of a hand full of Monitors + some dozen defense boats and a hundred fighters roughly in the right ball park?

The Dan Abnett book Guns of Tanith I think mentions that when it talks about the SDF. I think your ballpark is probably about right. I'd have to dig through the book to find something from it.

I think the size of the SDF space forces will depend on the system space infrastructure. As MDG notes, our modern solar system has nothing out there to defend/supply/inspect. As soon as you get substantial systemwide offworld infrastructure, you need ships to move stuff about. As soon as you have that, and the ability to mine asteroids, then anyone can wander off and create their own little pirate nest snuggled away on an out of the way rock. Then you need to defend the space lanes, and what you need to succeed in that depends on the number of assets out there, the distances between them, the effectiveness of sensors and targeting systems (I.e. what volume of space can a single vessel dominate) and the speed of the vessels. As the mighty Douglas Adams once said, space is big…

100 fighters is not much in the scale of a solar system.

@ Flinty: good point.

the following is about my homebrew fluff, so feel free to skip it if you are only interested in the general topic of "who builds those ships?"



What my dudes have is a system with a couple of worlds that have to work together to survive. Basically a small forgeworld dedicated to energy production and glas/laser tech, a civilized world with the bulk of the population, some vital Agri-Moons around one Gasgiant and a network of Navy-owned spacestations around another Gasgiant for refueling and repair of Navy ships and traders. So in-System travel is necessary but should mostly be limited to a couple of standard "shipping lanes". They are a backwater system and should "feel" like one, kind of very low on the imperial priority list on the brink of being forgotten, but important enough that they don't want to just hand it over to the first small pirate band either.

So maybe:
1. A couple of defense satelites and ground based anti ship lasers on the (almost atmosphereless) Forgeworld
=> they have the tech and energy to run those and without an atmosphere, ground based guns sound pretty practical
2. Some satelites, and the aforementioned SDF (5 Monitors, 50 SDF boats, 500 small fighter craft sounds sensible) protecting the main world, the agrimoons and the shipping routes between them
=> should be enough to discourage the odd pirate band and at least not just hand the world over fightless to an invasor, while still not too big for a backwater system
=> regarding the topic, the SDF boats and fighters build in system, the monitors "bought" from other systems Forgeworlds or rogue traders. Likely refitted older destroyers and merchants that were decomissioned as they won't survive a voyage through the warp anymore. Still good enough to slap a lance in it and let it patrol around a planet.
3. The Navy Facility doing their own thing and being protected by the odd destroyer or frigate that happens to be there for repairs and fuel.

Sounds better

Who builds imperial ships? Same people who do everything in the imperium: Slaves. Vast numbers of slaves, countless billions upon billions of slaves.

Navigators: I would see 2 likely origins for them:

1. DA emprah created them to make it possible to spread humanity out and lay the groundwork for the imperium.

2. The chaos gods created them to let humanity spread and expand to create a vast pool, or ocean, of new followers, resources, etc, plus it was probably fun to watch.

As to navigator reproduction, in the nightlords omnibus a female navigator and a human male had a son who wasn't a navigator but a powerful precognitive psyker who became a prophet.