Is Chaos all backwards?

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**blood reaper**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m gonna go one further. Because I can.

When 2nd Ed rolled around, we first saw Chaos and Imperial forces having a difference of tech level. Mk1 Plasma Weapons could do more damage - but were prone to overheating. Imperium used Mk2 and later. Not quite a deadly, but had zero chance of going all Melty-Facey.

I want to see that more in Chaos Forces. Higher risk, higher reward. Do or die. I mean, when you turn to the worship of the Dark Gods? It’s all or nothing, do or die, Death, Prince, Spawn (which sounds like a 40K version of snog, marry, avoid now I think about it).

Higher rates of fire. More powerful but temperamental rounds. Elf ‘n’ Safety are for the weak.

I will say I don't necessarily think "higher risk, higher reward" is the best way to approach the design of CSMs, because the asymmetry of "risk for reward" is alway skewed pretty badly - the risk is always going to be higher than the reward when the enemy can put out more consistent damage - which overall just results in a lot of "killing yourself to achieve nothing".

A better way to approach it (for the sake of creating a balanced book) would be less defensive buffs and more offensive buffs.

**TheBestBucketHead**

I actually like the idea of Imperial Guard being the vast majority of the army, with Space Marines as an elites option, a few Tech Priests and Space Marines available, throw in the Inquisition models. As fun an idea I think it would be for a wargame, to have all the Imperial armies mixed, and to have all the Chaos armies mixed, it'll never happen. And I know it's more possible now than ever, but army purity bonuses, command points, and minimum units in detachments means it would be annoying to build.

**Strg Alt**

Saber wrote:
Way back in 2nd edition the writers explained why they focused Chaos, as a faction, on the traitor marines.

It's what the players wanted.

At the start of 2nd the Chaos list was a mishmash of demons, cultists, mutants, and marines. However, most players focussed on marines with some demons in support. When Chaos finally got its first proper codex, then, the writers chose to reflect that preference by making the "default" army a traitor marine warband that could summon some demons. Sort of like how the default Imperial Guard army is an infantry company, or the default Eldar army is the massed warhost of the craftworld.

This focus also served the writers' goals of simplifying the army and making it easier to both play and balance, as there were fewer moving parts to consider. The codex did have an appendix with rules for mutants and human cultists, but the focus of the list remained on marines.

Yep, 2nd codex was fun. You could even run a WHFB chaos army in 40K with it.

**PenitentJake**

TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I actually like the idea of Imperial Guard being the vast majority of the army, with Space Marines as an elites option, a few Tech Priests and Space Marines available, throw in the Inquisition models. As fun an idea I think it would be for a wargame, to have all the Imperial armies mixed, and to have all the Chaos armies mixed, it'll never happen. And I know it's more possible now than ever, but army purity bonuses, command points, and minimum units in detachments means it would be annoying to build.

It already has happened. On the imperial side, they are Armies of Faith, and the rules are in Vigilus Alone. Check the Goonhammer review of VA for how the rules work- it's Guard + Marines + Sisters. Imperial Agents are allowed to joint.

Another one is the Torchbearer Fleet Rules- that's Marines (Old and New) + Custodes + Mechanicus. These are harder to find, because they were printed in a White Dwarf.

I think that the second Vigilus Book did a Chaos Drak Mirror of Armies of Faith, but I could be wrong about that.

**NoiseMarine with Tinnitus**

Whilst I agree with OP that cultists far outnumber CSM you also need to appreciate CSM came from an age where legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

Unlike the modern Imperium where a chapter is limited in number courtesy of the codex astartes. With a few exceptions e.g. Black Templars and Dark Angels who don't give a stuff.

**Gert**

NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
Whilst I agree with OP that cultists far outnumber CSM you also need to appreciate CSM came from an age where legions numbered in the hundreds of thousands.

Ehat could be considered a Cultist (i.e. anyone who actively participates in a Chaos Cult) numbers in the billions across the Galaxy. Imperial worlds are full of them and they are numerous. Necromunda alone has hundreds of smaller Cults that would band together in the event of an invasion of the planet by the forces of Chaos.
Even if you combine the numbers of all CSM in the galaxy together, you wouldn't get close to the number of mortal servants of the Dark Gods.

**Cheex**

With the scale of a 40k game, it's not unreasonable to assume it's just a zoomed-in snapshot of a larger battle or war.

I imagine that just about any full-scale Chaos invasion involves having one specific goal in mind (whether it be conquest, retrieval of a relic, disruption, etc). The majority of the Chaos hordes are unleashed on the enemy world to keep them occupied, while a concentrated force of CSM move in to achieve that goal. Those Chaos hordes are still present in the war, they're just not on the battlefield in proportional numbers because they aren't the narrative focus.

If you were to represent a Chaos army proportionally, you'd be looking at mostly hordes of weirdos with a couple of Marines to lead them. While I'm sure that's interesting for some, I daresay that most Chaos Marine players want to run, you know, Chaos Marines.

**Gert**

Well as MDG says, it should be a choice. The newest Chaos Codex would have been perfect but Cultist units are limited to 1 per Astartes unit so you can never have the Cult horde.

**ccs**

Gert wrote:
Well as MDG says, it should be a choice. The newest Chaos Codex would have been perfect but Cultist units are limited to 1 per Astartes unit so you can never have the Cult horde.

There's a reason you can't do the Cult horde your dreaming of with this book.
Its because the book your complaining about isnt Codex: Chaos. Its Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
Wanna guess what it's focused on?

**H.B.M.C.**

ccs wrote:
Its because the book your complaining about isnt Codex: Chaos. Its Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
Wanna guess what it's focused on?

The Adeptus Custodes book lets you do a Sisters of Silence detachment and it's not a Sisters of Silence book. The Eldar Codex lets you do a Harlequin army, and it's not Codex: Harlequins anymore.

So that excuse doesn't fly.

**TheBestBucketHead**

If there's less customizeability for a faction because it's named Chaos Space Marines instead of Hordes of Chaos or whatever, but it's the same faction, all I petition is that they change the name to Codex: Chaos and make it customizable again. Codex: Imperial Guard changes to Codex: Ogryn. I imagine people wouldn't be happy.

**mrFickle**

I thought one of the recent press releases said you could have a cultist army as we now have cultist HQs

**jeff white**

Is it possible to represent this with a detachment of traitor guard and conscripts for cultists alongside one of heretic marines?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I actually like the idea of Imperial Guard being the vast majority of the army, with Space Marines as an elites option, a few Tech Priests and Space Marines available, throw in the Inquisition models. As fun an idea I think it would be for a wargame, to have all the Imperial armies mixed, and to have all the Chaos armies mixed, it'll never happen. And I know it's more possible now than ever, but army purity bonuses, command points, and minimum units in detachments means it would be annoying to build.

I feel the same way.

**Not Online!!!**

mrFickle wrote:
I thought one of the recent press releases said you could have a cultist army as we now have cultist HQs

Nope, since gw expanded the "mere mortals" rule.
Further without anti-tank and elites you can hardly field an army.

**Gert**

ccs wrote:
There's a reason you can't do the Cult horde your dreaming of with this book.
Its because the book your complaining about isnt Codex: Chaos. Its Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
Wanna guess what it's focused on?

Word Bearers and Alpha Legion make heavy use of Cultist elements as force multipliers. You can't have your Word Bearers Dark Apostle leading a devoted flock with his chosen few warriors because you can only take as many Cultist units as there are Astartes. You can't have a cadre of Alpha Legionaries leading an uprising of PDF forces because of the above issue and the fact that the Traitor Guard units aren't in the Codex.
Hell make it so Cultist units can't fill mandatory Force Org slots and remove the 1 for 1 limit so you still have to take Astartes.
GW actually put effort into the Cults aspect of Chaos and then said "lol no" to any kind of extensive Cult based army.

**Dai**

Sure you can have all those things, stop playing matched play for a while.

**Pandabeer**

Same reason why GW is so focused on Space Marines despite there canonically being only about a million of them in the entire galaxy. Most people want to play the superhero (or in the case of Chaos, supervillain, and I'll readily admit I'm one of those players), not the dime-a-dozen soldier. Making Spiky Marines is simply more profitable than getting creative with all sort of cultist, traitor Guard and Beastmen units. Although I'm happy that cultists are getting more variety even though I'll likely not be getting any of the new cultist kits because as I mentioned they aren't my thing.

**BrianDavion**

Just gonna note, the admech had a constant presence in the background lore of the universe, but didn't get an army until late 7th edition, GW produces the armies they think we'll buy. if they don't mech "codex: chaos cultists" it's proably because they don't belive the army'd be popular.

**mrFickle**

I expect that the 1 cult unit for 1 CSM unit is in existence because GW worked out that allowing a hard of cultists in the new release would be game breaking somehow.

I'd love to see an expansion of the forces of chaos, specifically cults and dark mechanics, but I think GW moves slowly and surely to avoid making losses - I'd like to get an inside view on how they made the decision to bring squats back and why 2022.

I think more chaos armies will come one day but look how long it took for WE to get a codex

**Leo_the_Rat**

Gert wrote:
ccs wrote:
There's a reason you can't do the Cult horde your dreaming of with this book.
Its because the book your complaining about isnt Codex: Chaos. Its Codex: Chaos Space Marines.
Wanna guess what it's focused on?

Word Bearers and Alpha Legion make heavy use of Cultist elements as force multipliers. You can't have your Word Bearers Dark Apostle leading a devoted flock with his chosen few warriors because you can only take as many Cultist units as there are Astartes. You can't have a cadre of Alpha Legionaries leading an uprising of PDF forces because of the above issue and the fact that the Traitor Guard units aren't in the Codex.
Hell make it so Cultist units can't fill mandatory Force Org slots and remove the 1 for 1 limit so you still have to take Astartes.
GW actually put effort into the Cults aspect of Chaos and then said "lol no" to any kind of extensive Cult based army.

You can have a force of chaos that has cultists as numerically superior. You take a 5 man CSM squad and a Max size Cultist squad (I believe the max is 13). So if you had 15 CSM you could have almost 40 Cultists. By the rules you have the same amount but eyeballing it it would look like a lot of cultists and a few marines interspersed within them. While I can see this as not being totally satisfying at least it's something to consider.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Or…and stop me if I’m being radical here?

They could just not place arbitrary limits, or even betterer? Just give us a Lost & Damned Codex already!

Can’t be Marines all the time.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Well yes, your's is the perfect solution. Mine was meant as a way to work with the trainwreck that we have.

**Not Online!!!**

mrFickle wrote:
I expect that the 1 cult unit for 1 CSM unit is in existence because GW worked out that allowing a hard of cultists in the new release would be game breaking somehow.

I'd love to see an expansion of the forces of chaos, specifically cults and dark mechanics, but I think GW moves slowly and surely to avoid making losses - I'd like to get an inside view on how they made the decision to bring squats back and why 2022.

I think more chaos armies will come one day but look how long it took for WE to get a codex

Lol, what are you dreaming of in a night, if you seriously belive a bunch of t3 models in outright braincell melting datasheets would break the game?

**Dai**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or…and stop me if I’m being radical here?

They could just not place arbitrary limits, or even betterer? Just give us a Lost & Damned Codex already!

Can’t be Marines all the time.

I wouldn't count it out in the current gw age.

**Gert**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
You can have a force of chaos that has cultists as numerically superior. You take a 5 man CSM squad and a Max size Cultist squad (I believe the max is 13). So if you had 15 CSM you could have almost 40 Cultists. By the rules you have the same amount but eyeballing it it would look like a lot of cultists and a few marines interspersed within them. While I can see this as not being totally satisfying at least it's something to consider.

By numbers sure you can take more Cultists than CSM, but then you also can't take the HQ unit or the possessed Cultists because you've used up your 1-1 ratios already.
It kind of defeats the purpose of having a Cult-heavy army with a variety of mortal troops when you have to follow an arbitrary ratio because the rules writers decided it was the only way to make people take the Legionaries, which they then borked up anyway with the rubbish equipment rules.

**TwinPoleTheory**

It's a very messy codex, which isn't very surprising given that it's designed by the GW art team. Certain aspects being actually illegal until the errata is released (non-Noise cult marines for example).

**Leo_the_Rat**

I haven't seen the actual rule nor the Codex itself but I had assumed that the 1:1 thing was for troop units and not for overall units. Even then, if I've read the rules correctly, you can take a CSM HQ and a Cult HQ and still have the coven. It is my understanding that the coven is a special unit in and of itself.

If I'm wrong then I apologize.

**mrFickle**

Not Online!!! wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I expect that the 1 cult unit for 1 CSM unit is in existence because GW worked out that allowing a hard of cultists in the new release would be game breaking somehow.

I'd love to see an expansion of the forces of chaos, specifically cults and dark mechanics, but I think GW moves slowly and surely to avoid making losses - I'd like to get an inside view on how they made the decision to bring squats back and why 2022.

I think more chaos armies will come one day but look how long it took for WE to get a codex

Lol, what are you dreaming of in a night, if you seriously belive a bunch of t3 models in outright braincell melting datasheets would break the game?

I dunno but if it was obvious it wouldn’t be game breaking

**Huron black heart**

A cultist majority army would be interesting, and I entirely agree there should be loads more of them than chaos space marines, but I'm not sure how well they'd work. I don't think from a fluff point of view they'd have the military set up for heavy support units, or fast attack etc. They'd be a rabble led by perhaps a possessed leader, maybe some could receive marks of chaos, some units could be possessed themselves. Chaos marines could be an elite option within the force, maybe a Dark Apostle leading the way.

**Amishprn86**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

So this is a bit of an aimless moan, filtered through the ol’ rose tinted.

No, not Backwards in the derogatory term for someone not of expected educational performance. Or clinging to outdated methods and ideals.

Backwards in how the Faction is represented.

See….there really aren’t all that many Chaos Space Marines. Not really. But there are at least as many Chaos Cults as there are Imperial Words. Sure, most are small fry, thankfully for The Imperium either too ill equipped or ill trained to be a particularly deadly threat. But when they are? Their cultists come in staggering numbers. The sneakier ones will incite a Popular Revolt without revealing their true motivations to their Followers (including those genuinely fighting for better rations and conditions etc) until it’s all far too late.

Yet…on the tabletop? It’s Maureens a-go-go. Yes you do get Cults and equivalent, but they’re a minority on the board.

And I don’t think simply introducing Lost and the Damned or equivalent is going to be enough. Because for far too long (as in, 2nd Ed to now) it’s all been about those naughty post-human heretics.

I think that’s a real shame. If they’d focussed on the mortal misbehaviour, CSM could’ve been, individually, forced to be reckoned with. As in even a basic CSM, to represent their decades of experience and survival, being a Low Level Character in terms of stats. With less standardised equipment options, because part of being Chaos is a greater individual freedom of sorts (granted you just swapped one oppressive master for another, but at least the new guy doesn’t dictate what guns you can carry).

Think them all being Chosen in terms of stats and equipment (not the latest Chosen, who I understand to have silly equipment restrictions?), with Chosen being particular blessed (think exhibiting useful mutations and nascent psychic abilities as they swell, and contain, dark power).

Sorry. This thread really doesn’t have much of a point.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And where are all the manky mutants and other oddities of the Eye of Terror? Trolls, Ogryns, Minotaur, Beastmen etc?

Chaos should arguably be a riot of choice, with the player free to have their force focussed or as hodge-podge as they please.

IA:13 is indeed an excellent example of what could’ve been.

I used to play 100 cultist in 7th, does that make you feel better?