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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Let me put it this way. If I had a weapon that stated it could be shot up to 12" and it put down a 3" diameter template would you then be saying- that it could hit a target 18" away from you and the template now would be 9" in diameter?

If there would be some special ammunition, like a relic, for your gun which would increase the range of the gun to 18" and the diameter of the explosion to 9", then yes.

In this case the special ammunition is tzeentch boosting the range.

 p5freak wrote:
If there would be some special ammunition, like a relic, for your gun which would increase the range of the gun to 18" and the diameter of the explosion to 9", then yes.

Even you are agreeing that there is a difference between range and effect. The rule makes no mention of changing the effect of an ability only its range.

Thank you for your agreement.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
For those of you wishing a "citation" since GW doesn't publish a glossary of terms for 40K you win. I can't show you an official definition of "range".

Actually, there is a Glossary of terms in the 40K rulebook, but range isn't in it.

Technically, range only exist as a characteristic of weapons. So I guess technically, this ability does nothing

But we all know from common usage that the range of the Psychic Power is the maximum distance from the psycher to a viable target when manifesting that psychic power.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
If there would be some special ammunition, like a relic, for your gun which would increase the range of the gun to 18" and the diameter of the explosion to 9", then yes.

Even you are agreeing that there is a difference between range and effect. The rule makes no mention of changing the effect of an ability only its range.

Thank you for your agreement.

There ís no such thing as an effect for a psychic power in the rules, you made that up.

Well, you made up range as part of a psychic ability so I guess we're even.

JakeSiren wrote:
Infernal Gateway has two range components and, as much as I like repeating myself, I'll just quote what I said earlier.

JakeSiren wrote:
As per "Basic English comprehension": Infernal Gateway uses two ranges to identify affected models/units. You have the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model.

But that is not what Lorekeeper of Tzeentch is referencing.

There is a difference between the range of the psychic power, and the effect of the Psychic power. It having a range for targeting is all that Lorekeeper of Tzeentch alters. It does not alter the effects of the power, just the powers range.

Your comments do not make grammatical sense.

 p5freak wrote:
There is no such thing as an effect for a psychic power in the rules...

Things that are not defined in the rules, can be defined with the English language. That is how rules are written.

 alextroy wrote:
But we all know from common usage that the range of the Psychic Power is the maximum distance from the psycher to a viable target when manifesting that psychic power.

100% this. I do not get how people do not understand this.

JakeSiren wrote:

Codex: Chaos Daemons pg 128 wrote:Lorekeeper of Tzeentch: Add 6" to the range of the first psychic power manifested by your Warlord in each Pyschic phase.

Codex: Chaos Daemons pg 132 wrote:Infernal Gateway: Infernal Gateway has a warp charge value of 8. If manifested, identify the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker and visible to it; that model’s unit, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model, suffers D3 mortal wounds. The number of mortal wounds inflicted is D6 instead if the power is manifested with a Psychic test of 12+.

Lets look at this in another manner. How is the caster manifesting the damage between the first unit and all of the other units within 3" of it? He's not casting a second spell (that would also void the ability since it says "first psychic power"). He's not the origin of the the secondary damage so there is no range betweeen him and the secondary targets (otherwise all of the units would have to be within 18" of him at the time of the casting). So in what sense do you want to say that the 3" becomes 9"? There's nothing that allows you to consider the non-targeted unit(s) to have anything to do with the range of the caster.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


Lets look at this in another manner. How is the caster manifesting the damage between the first unit and all of the other units within 3" of it? He's not casting a second spell (that would also void the ability since it says "first psychic power"). He's not the origin of the the secondary damage so there is no range betweeen him and the secondary targets (otherwise all of the units would have to be within 18" of him at the time of the casting). So in what sense do you want to say that the 3" becomes 9"? There's nothing that allows you to consider the non-targeted unit(s) to have anything to do with the range of the caster.

What are you talking about ? What secondary damage, and what secondary targets ? The psychic power targets the nearest enemy model (unit) within 12" and every other unit within 3" of that unit. All are primary targets, so to speak.

No they're not, because the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules... you never pick the other units. They're automatically selected by the spell

Either take range as defined e,se hare, a single measure betwen target and object, or the trait does nothing at all

The tzeentch warlord trait doesnt say that its required to pick or select a target for a range increase.

I never said it did. Please try to deal with what's said, not what you've made up.

Measuring ranges is pretty easy. Not sure why it's an issue for you here. Did you actually read the OP this time?

 p5freak wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


Lets look at this in another manner. How is the caster manifesting the damage between the first unit and all of the other units within 3" of it? He's not casting a second spell (that would also void the ability since it says "first psychic power"). He's not the origin of the the secondary damage so there is no range betweeen him and the secondary targets (otherwise all of the units would have to be within 18" of him at the time of the casting). So in what sense do you want to say that the 3" becomes 9"? There's nothing that allows you to consider the non-targeted unit(s) to have anything to do with the range of the caster.

What are you talking about ? What secondary damage, and what secondary targets ? The psychic power targets the nearest enemy model (unit) within 12" and every other unit within 3" of that unit. All are primary targets, so to speak.

So to speak means that you are saying that something is almost the same but not quite the same (or close enough). Since you like definitions so much show me where you are allowed to change the meaning of a rule even slightly from what is written. I'm not even sure what your poiint is anymore. All you keep saying is, "no that's not correct" but you are not stating what you think is the correct usage of the rules and backing it up with rules and/or (one of your favorites) citations.

p5freak please state exactly what your stance is and why. Thank you for playing.

I already mentioned my statement, both the 12" and 3" are ranges, and both are increased by the warlord trait.

citation please. Where in the rules is "range" defined for psychic abilities?

Also, you can't seriously be that ignorant of the difference between an attack and the effect of an attack. Based on your logic if I had a weapon that had the following rules you would be OK with the outcome.

Pick a point on the board within 12" of your caster. Everything within 3" of that point is now removed from the board.

Now add in a rule that says my caster can add 6" to the range of my weapon/ability (doesn't matter which it is). Now, according to you, I can pick a point on the board that is up to 18" away from my caster and everything with 9" of that point would be removed from the board. While I agee with the first part 12" -> 18" for selection of the point on the board. The second is clearly not about range but about effect.

I am not going to repeat the entire thread, we have already been through this. Read it, or move on.

 p5freak wrote:
I am not going to repeat the entire thread, we have already been through this. Read it, or move on.

We have been though this, and your stance is still not correct.

You have no citations, nor does common English support what you have claimed.

"range" is not defined for psychic abilities. So we fall back on the common English interpretation for the phrase " Add 6" to the range of the first psychic power manifested by your Warlord...".

Commonly, when talking about ranges for abilities in a game, it is the distance between the acting character and the target. This is what the range of a psychic ability is. In the case of Infernal Gateway, the range of the psychic power is 12".

 p5freak wrote:
I am not going to repeat the entire thread, we have already been through this. Read it, or move on.

You being rude when you’re caught out is a pathetic look. Arguing against consensus but telling people to move on. Truly sad. You’re not less of a person for admitting you’re wrong. Dogmatically refusing to back down from your (I’m gonna say it) contrarian edge cases is just boring.

 p5freak wrote:
I am not going to repeat the entire thread, we have already been through this. Read it, or move on.

And all you have given is your obtuse claim with no proof or rationale other than your word "from on high". I don't blame you for wanting the conversation to move on. I'd be embarrassed if I were in your position as well.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No they're not, because the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules... you never pick the other units. They're automatically selected by the spell

Either take range as defined e,se hare, a single measure betwen target and object, or the trait does nothing at all

Actually, the player never gets to select a target. The spell automatically selects the closest enemy model within 12" and every unit within 3" of that model. So that line of reasoning is flawed.

JakeSiren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No they're not, because the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules... you never pick the other units. They're automatically selected by the spell

Either take range as defined e,se hare, a single measure betwen target and object, or the trait does nothing at all

Actually, the player never gets to select a target. The spell automatically selects the closest enemy model within 12" and every unit within 3" of that model. So that line of reasoning is flawed.

No one said the player gets to select a target. Nos said " the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules"

The line of reasoning is not flawed.

The first unit is the target of the Psychic Power. One that is determined by the power, not the player, but it is still the target of the power.

 DeathReaper wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No they're not, because the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules... you never pick the other units. They're automatically selected by the spell

Either take range as defined e,se hare, a single measure betwen target and object, or the trait does nothing at all

Actually, the player never gets to select a target. The spell automatically selects the closest enemy model within 12" and every unit within 3" of that model. So that line of reasoning is flawed.

No one said the player gets to select a target. Nos said " the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules"

The line of reasoning is not flawed.

The first unit is the target of the Psychic Power. One that is determined by the power, not the player, but it is still the target of the power.

Claim: "No they're not, because the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules..."
Justification: "you never pick the other units. They're automatically selected by the spell"
Implication: Models that are "automatically selected by the spell" are not the target of the spell.

With me so far?

Rebuttal: The first unit is "automatically selected by the spell", therefore the claim is not supported by the justification as the justification would exclude the first unit from being "the actual target"

Hence, that line of reasoning is flawed.

JakeSiren wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No they're not, because the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules... you never pick the other units. They're automatically selected by the spell

Either take range as defined e,se hare, a single measure betwen target and object, or the trait does nothing at all

Actually, the player never gets to select a target. The spell automatically selects the closest enemy model within 12" and every unit within 3" of that model. So that line of reasoning is flawed.

No one said the player gets to select a target. Nos said " the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules"

The line of reasoning is not flawed.

The first unit is the target of the Psychic Power. One that is determined by the power, not the player, but it is still the target of the power.

Claim: "No they're not, because the first unit is the actual target as defined by the rules..."
Justification: "you never pick the other units. They're automatically selected by the spell"
Implication: Models that are "automatically selected by the spell" are not the target of the spell.

With me so far?

No, because that is not at all what was implied.

Rebuttal: The first unit is "automatically selected by the spell", therefore the claim is not supported by the justification as the justification would exclude the first unit from being "the actual target"

Hence, that line of reasoning is flawed.

That is not at all what the line of reasoning was.

Ok, I'll bite. Since you want to speak for them, what do you think Nosferatu1001 meant?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I am not going to repeat the entire thread, we have already been through this. Read it, or move on.

You being rude when you’re caught out is a pathetic look. Arguing against consensus but telling people to move on. Truly sad. You’re not less of a person for admitting you’re wrong. Dogmatically refusing to back down from your (I’m gonna say it) contrarian edge cases is just boring.

I am not being rude. Leo is. He wants me to repeat what has already been discussed.

Here we go again. When the rules dont define something, we fallback to the english language. Common usage says that range is a distance between two points. The spell mentions two ranges, 12" and 3". The warlord trait increase the range by 6". Therefore the 12" and 3" are increased to 18" and 9".

You can’t claim common language while ignoring common language and grammar, as others have pointed out. Consensus is not on your side.

p5freak- distance does not always mean range. At least not in everyday English. All ranges are measured by distances but not all distances are range. If a board is 48" across that is a distance not a range. In the same way while a distance is measured between 2 points that does not mean it is a range. The second distance in the ability is a measure of area (distance) not a range.

BtW by your definition the second measure isn't a range since it measures an area and not 2 points. In this instance the area is defined as being all points being within 3" of a given unit's models (also not a point).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
p5freak- distance does not always mean range. At least not in everyday English. All ranges are measured by distances but not all distances are range. If a board is 48" across that is a distance not a range. In the same way while a distance is measured between 2 points that does not mean it is a range. The second distance in the ability is a measure of area (distance) not a range.

BtW by your definition the second measure isn't a range since it measures an area and not 2 points. In this instance the area is defined as being all points being within 3" of a given unit's models (also not a point).

"The second distance in the ability is a measure of area" is not a correct statement. An area is represented in a unit of measurement squared. For example, if the selected model had a 25mm base (~1"), then the area that the second component would cover is approximately 38.5 inch^2. A model with a 100ml base would equate to approximately 78.5 inch^2 (assuming my math is up to scratch).

I don't think it's incorrect to say that any unit within a 3" range of the identified model (the nearest enemy model that is within 12" of the psyker and visible to it), is also affected by the power.

By stating a 3" distance from every point from a models base you are defining an area from first principles l...

If you re-read what Leo_the_rat said nosferatu1001, the claim is "The second distance in the ability is a measure of area". The distance they are referring to is 3", which is, on its own, not a measure of area.

More correctly, the power affects a 3d volume. The volume affected by the power is described with a reference model, and a 3" range from that model.

A simple example would be to imagine the power affecting a tank in ruins, and the models in the level above.

Volume is area in 3d. The 3" tells you how to create that volume, and so is still not a range.

The range of the power is the 12". Anything else requires that the trait does nothing.