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OMG your serious? What did we get besides another wound then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I gotta see the book to believe this now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:48:50


 
   
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dominuschao wrote:
Jesus that sounds pretty harsh. So what's our go to for shooting then? And by no more you mean literally there's no JPs now? I can't see even gw pulling something like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoa and 1 lord too?! Nah you guys messing with me now. Nice joke 🤣


I think they want CSM armies to focus more on melee rather than shooting.

The only jump packs we have now are on our raptors and our warptalons. Sorry, I know a lot of people are disappointed about this. There are like probably twenty pages about this in the CSM rumors thread. But I rather just move on and focus on what we do have.

Erm, the restriction is true. You can't have more than 1 chaos lord in a detachment. Flying Daemon Princes are really powerful now though, because you can buff their already powerful weapons with relic daemon weapons. And its possible to have a character carry two relics. Its a good consideration if you want something to replace a fighty jump pack lord.
   
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Cultist HQs... and some fancy more mutated cultists!

Umm... what else did we lose... we lost Mutilators... and Berzerkers... and Plague Marines... and Rubric Marines... and Greater Possessed (new Possessed are now basically units of Greater Possessed though, but as separate characters they are gone).

CSM squads can't take two of the same special weapon for some reason, but Raptors can, and Bikers can take lots of things that aren't in the kit. Because of this a new word was invented: "Chaosistency", the act giving options to Chaos armies that make no God-damned sense at all.

Warp Talons don't have Lightning Claws anymore, they have "Warp Claws".

Chosen and Terminators no longer have power swords/axes/mauls/chainaxes or lightning claws. They have "Accursed Weapons", which are basically generic "power weapons". Terminators can still take power fists (though only 3 per 5 because of asinine reasons), and 1 fist per 5 (same asinine reasons).

Only Jump Pack Lord in the book is Haaken, so have fun all you Night Lord players I guess.

The Daemon Prince entry will be invalid in 6 months time when the new Daemon Prince model arrives, and it has options that aren't part of these rules.

Terminators and Chosen have strict limits on combi-weapons, again, all based on what's on the sprue, except Power Fists, which Chosen can't have, and despite other units having more options despite the same limited sprues (or nothing on the sprue at all). There's that "Chaosistency" again.

Marks are back, but you can't give them to Possessed because... *mumble mumble mumble*

The new Traitor Guard kit that first came out in the KT box didn't get rules in this book, unlike Eldar Corsairs that did. This also somehow makes sense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:56:28


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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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dominuschao wrote:
OMG your serious? What did we get besides another wound then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I gotta see the book to believe this now.


A ten man terminator can be made seriously tanky now. You can give it Mark of tzeentch so that it negates the first failed save each phase. You can also let the aspiring champion carry a relic Dark Rune of Damnation that gives the unit a -1 to wound. You can further buff it with psychic spells and prayers. Or you can go mark of nurgle and spend 2CP to give this unit transhuman. A ten man terminator unit is hard to shift now with buffs applied.

Their melee damage is great too. A ten man unit with their default accursed blades is doing 41 attacks that are Str 5, AP 3, Dmg 1. This is before any buffs or auras are applied.

Basically, the designers have made CSM somewhat less shooty, for stronger Melee. As a starting point, my advice would be to focus on the melee and just treat shooting as decent (but not going to win the game for you). The only CSM list I can think of that has been improved in shooting would be a triple predator list along with a Lord of skulls, or 1 Land Raider, 2 predators and a Lord of Skulls. Those datasheets all got their shooting improved. And predators are T8 now, LR are T9 now, and LOS is 30W now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 04:02:34


 
   
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Eldenfirefly wrote:
You can give it Mark of tzeentch so that it negates the first failed save each phase.
Is this a good thing?

What's to stop your opponent just showering you in pathetic small-arms fire until you fail on save and then hitting you with the big stuff?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 03:58:57


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
You can give it Mark of tzeentch so that it negates the first failed save each phase.
Is this a good thing?

What's to stop your opponent just showering you in pathetic small-arms fire until you fail on save and then hitting you with the big stuff?



Nothing prevents that. But if they are going to spam small arms fire on a terminator unit with armor of contempt. They are welcome to try. That's a lot of small arms fire that are going to do very little. Mark of Tzeentch also allows you to cast the 4++ psychic power on them. And that will definitely help against big guns.
   
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Some strong combinations in the book. Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emps children and creations of bile are all looking great.

I'll probably start with a Discolord with Gorget and Flames of spite. The Gorget gives you +1 to Save and a 4++. With AoC that means you have to hit -3 AP before taking him off his 2+ save. Rerolling all wounds with the +1 damage to vehicles is also very nice. He should blend elite infantry and light vehicles pretty good with that profile.

A MoP is also a must. Their powers are fantastic and all the important ones do not require LoS and are 18' range. Easy casts. I'm planning on running a squad of oblits, some possessed and Venomcrawlers so this is perfect.

I'm probably going to take a large squad of Terminators with Abbadon. A huge hard to shift brick that's a massive threat in melee and even with AP 0 bolters can put out a ton of damage with abbadon, especially if you are black legion.

troops are going to be cheap... just your 3x5 with no upgrades I think. I may take the book, but that's an easy drop if I need points elsewhere.

Here just my initial ideas at a list

Discolord
MoP
3x5 Troops
10 Terminators
5-10 possesed
3x Venomcrawlers
3x Oblits
Abbadon

Will need to work in some numbers but this is my initial ideas skeleton.

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Looks like a great list, Sasori ! Share with us here on this thread how it turns out!

On a separate note, I read that you can make an absolute monster out of a Master of Executions by giving him a relic daemon weapon, or/and a warlord trait. He can be a real Mortal Wounds monster. But he is a glass cannon though because he doesn't have a invul save. Unless you want to give him the relic Gorget of Eternal Hate, which gives the bearer a +1 armor save and a 4++ invul. But that would means spending 3CP just to equip out one character, which sounds like a lot.

Anyway, if you just want a glass cannon. He can be equipped with the daemon weapon Ul'o'cca the black, which makes his weapon - every successful wound deal a MW extra. At a base, he is already doing 6 attacks with Str 7, AP3, Dmg 2, and 6s to hit do 2 MW. And he already rerolls wounds against characters. So, just with this alone, you are probably going to kill most characters with tons of MW.

If its not enough MW, you can add on flames of spite. So now, you reroll wounds on everything and 6s to wound cause 1 extra MW. lol Alternatively, you can go hatred incarnate for +1A, +1S and you now reroll hits all the time. So you can reroll all of your 7 Str 8 hits to fish for 2MW each hit, and if you are in Wanton Slaughter, 6s also explode for more hits lol.

And all this for just 65 points. Hmm... I wonder if there is a possible list where we spam three of these things, because they are only an elite choice. So, they don't even take up a HQ slot.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 04:34:18


 
   
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Well I'm stunned. I feel like I missed a whole edition somehow..

The tanky terminators sound cool. Prefer shooty but maybe that will work for me.

The bad ass disco sounds good too I have a FW model I stand in so that's cool.

But FFS I can't believe my entire army was gutted in one swoop.
Guess I could dust off the warp talons again always loved them. Maybe they got better odds to ds into combat now.
But what's our high str/ap/rof shooting now? I don't think land raiders make a good firing platform. Oblits sure I'll take some. Where's the plasma come from now? Preds I don't own anymore. Are defilers better maybe? And havocs? Sorry I guess I could read the rumours thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 04:35:53


 
   
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Oblits are good, or will be until GW knee-jerks them to 120 points each.

The shooty Dinobot ain't terrible. Daemon Engines in general are up to WS3+/BS3+ (as they always should have been; Defilers having the same weapon skill as Guardsmen has been been a bugbear of mine since 2007!). Land Raiders and Predators are tougher, finally. Not 100% certain that that'll save 'em, but they should last longer and therefore shoot more!

Havocs are now 5 models that still can't have any extras but have 2 wounds rather than 1, so that's a bonus. They can still jump out of a Rhino and fire for full effect, which is also nice.

Bikes might be able to shoot well in a pinch, given that they haven't had their weapon restrictions limited in the same bizarre way as other units have (despite having zero options in the kit... Chaosistency! ).

Noise Marines, the only Cult unit still left in the book ('cause they don't have a new kit), can put out an ok amount of firepower up close, but lost a Blastmaster because *mumble mumble mumble* reasons.

dominuschao wrote:
Well I'm stunned. I feel like I missed a whole edition somehow.
Some might say Chaos did too.

And never forget: Tau Drones got 2 wounds before Chaos Space Marines did.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 04:53:10


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So, here's a vehicle theme list. Based on trying to pack lots of vehicles with high Strength guns.

Warpsmith (Warlord)
Master of Possession

5 x Legionaires
10x cultists
10x cultists

3 X Hellbrutes with multi melta, fist with combi bolters

2 X Venomcrawlers
3 X Chaos Bikers

3 X Chaos Vindicators with combi melta

1 X Lord of skulls (Hades Gatling Cannon, Gorestorm cannon).

So, it will push up the board with the LOS, venomcrawlers, hellbrutes with the two HQ sticking near the LOS to provide it with support.

Its packing the following high strength guns:

12 shots of Str 8 Gatling cannon (LOS)
3D3 shots of Str 9 Gorestorm Cannon (LOS)
9+3D3 shots of Str 10 (from Vindicators)
3 shots of Str 8 (from Vindicators)
6 shots of Str 8 (from Hellbrutes)
12 shots of Str 6 (From Venomcrawlers).

And the Master of possession and warpsmith will repair the LOS every turn, give it +1 to hit, increase its toughness to T9, give it a 4++ Invul save ... Thats... a lot of buffs. lol

Iron Warriors is probably the best legion for this type of army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 08:30:17


 
   
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I kind of feel deepstriking Oblits feels old fashioned. If its the bottom of turn 2, your opponent has had a lot of time to shape the board so you can't put them anywhere good. Equally making an unbuffed 9" charge isn't reliable.

Thinking from a CoB perspective - if you liked Oblits, I'm not sure why you wouldn't take say a Hellbrute with MM & power scourge. Its 20 points more - but the shooting is about the same. (Oblits more flexible - but I don't think the lower powered shots would usually be worth the points.) In melee its 8 attacks (S8 AP-2 2 damage) compared with 4 attacks (S11 AP-3 2 damage) and I feel 8 T7 3+ AOC with minus 1 damage wounds is probably harder to chew through than 5 T5 2+/5++ AOC wounds. Outside of CoB the fist is probably a better shout as the Power Scourge doesn't hit S8 (unless you break out the mark of Khorne, which is possibly pricy). The fist may just be better anyway depending on your meta. Being Core the Hellbrutes also benefit from most buffs and reroll 1s to wound if they have taken any damage.

Mark of Tzeentch is perhaps worth looking at (although at 125 points I think a more significant gap on the Oblits 90 is adding up). Tend to agree on the line that yes, you can spray these sort of things with bolter fire, but its not terribly efficient so arguably its still having an effect to reduce your opponents output. Especially on Terminators. Every time you absorb a lascannon/melta/thunderhammer hit etc, its paid for itself.

The sideline is recovering Oblits with Pact of Flesh - but I have a suspicion it will end up nerfed, because getting a 90 point model back is a bit crazy and GW have gone "oh wait woops" when we've seen similar in the past.
   
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I'm interested to see how Noise Marines pan out. I have two squads with a Blastmaster each and a full compliment of Sonic Blasters. The improved statline of the Blastmaster seems to be *excellent*.

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Do rubric marines with warpflamers get let the galaxy burn, or not ? A unit of 10 doing 10D6+20 autohits sounds hilarious.
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Do rubric marines with warpflamers get let the galaxy burn, or not ? A unit of 10 doing 10D6+20 autohits sounds hilarious.

Seems like they do.
   
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EviscerationPlague wrote:
Seems like they do.


There are no Rubrics in this book, TS only. Woops, nm, missed the Slaves to Darkness part, ugh, that's still really terrible. They really don't want you to take cult marines outside of their home legion.

"fallen, Berserkers, Rubrics, and Plague Marines have been removed from this book."

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-chaos-space-marines-review-9th-part-3-the-datasheets/

Noise Marines, that's it, also, they never get a legion trait except EC.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/29 17:02:32


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I thought someone mentioned taking cult troops as Elites in from the other books, is there actually a way to do that or nah?

I converted up a little squad of iron warrior plague marines and my friend has iron warrior khorne berserkers. It would be a shame if they were also casualties of this book along with my jump lord and my friend's combi-bolter+chainsword chosen that took half a year to build.

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 ph34r wrote:
I thought someone mentioned taking cult troops as Elites in from the other books, is there actually a way to do that or nah?

I converted up a little squad of iron warrior plague marines and my friend has iron warrior khorne berserkers. It would be a shame if they were also casualties of this book along with my jump lord and my friend's combi-bolter+chainsword chosen that took half a year to build.


You can, there is a specific rule that allows this. They never gain a legion trait, but do get let the galaxy burn. So warpflamers with +2 hits are a go.

What will be real intreasting is if they FAQ you to allow the Icon keyword for these units. The Icon in CSM would be -1 Ap for the warpflamers, meaning you get get +2 hit, -3 AP warpflamers for very cheap.

4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
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For Terminators, an option might actually be to give them the Mark of Slaanesh - not only do you get always fights first, but if you're running a Slaanesh psyker of some kind, you'll also have Delightful Agonies as an extra power. A 5+++ on a block of 10 terminators that get a free interrupt when charged, and which are also escorting some fighty character like Abaddon (don't even need to be running Black Legion for this), a DP, or a Lord Discordant, is no joke. It's not quite Blightlord/Deathshroud brick without the -1D rule, but 5+++ really helps.

Secondly, if I'm remembering correctly, we can still absolutely take all of the Cult Troops regardless of which legion we're playing. From Goonhammer's review (Part 1):

Do not despair, however – you can still bring your Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines and Rubricae along. The Slaves to Darkness rule lays out how, plus makes Noise Marines and the Emperor’s Children work analagously to the special Marines from the other three god-specific legions..

Basically, for any of these units, you can use the datasheet from the relevant Codex as an Elites option, with a few restrictions (right now Berzerkers come from this month’s White Dwarf). You have to pay the points to upgrade them to have the relevant Mark of Chaos (see later), their Keywords get shuffled around so they make sense with the rest of the army, and they don’t gain your Legion Trait (Rubricae also have to use the powers from Dark Hereticus from this book). However, they do still get the <Legion> Keyword, and do gain the Chaos Space Marine pure army ability Let the Galaxy Burn. That means they’re still eligible for combination with Stratagems and Auras (as all these units are CORE), and get some extra hits with the right kind of weapons to boot.

For Noise Marines, these same rules apply if you’re taking them in any Legion other than Emperor’s Children, but when you do go full Fulgrim they become Troops and can gain a Legion trait.

Will need to read the book itself to see exactly what they mean by getting <Legion> while not getting a legion trait for buffs that require your own legion, and whether marks buff up the cult troops or whether it's just a tax, but as far as I can tell it's perfectly viable to still be taking cult troops, and honestly with how pushed Plague Marines have been with the points update they could conceivably fit into the same role as like Chosen.
   
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I dont know the exact rules, only leaks, but i have a feeling we will see lists with cult troops, because they are far better than legionaries. Plague marines are far more resilient with T5 and damage reduction. They are NURGLE HERETIC ASTARTES and can benefit from CSM buffs. Rubric marines are resilient with all is dust, armour of contempt, have AP-2 bolters, and the psyker is already built in, for pretty much the same cost as legionaries with a psyker.
   
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I'm just gonna wait for the errata on how Icons work.
   
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Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/29 20:58:40


 
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.

It's not NEEDED but it's what I WANT hahaha
   
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It's just weird that you need to buy marks for Cult Troops.

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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's just weird that you need to buy marks for Cult Troops.


The list of weird design choices in this codex is mind boggling. They're Core, but they don't get the legion trait, but they're <Legion>, the whole thing is just bizarre. It's like some weird mercenary rule, on top of that, marks can only be given to Undivided units, so technically, it's illegal to field them until GW releases errata addressing that bit of brilliant rules writing.

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p5freak wrote:Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.

If icons from other codices are FAQ'd to work properly, Rubrics become one of the stronger options even with the no-legion nerf, as they would get the extra AP as well as the +2 shots per warpflamer so would be extremely good.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Looks like a great list, Sasori ! Share with us here on this thread how it turns out!

On a separate note, I read that you can make an absolute monster out of a Master of Executions by giving him a relic daemon weapon, or/and a warlord trait. He can be a real Mortal Wounds monster. But he is a glass cannon though because he doesn't have a invul save. Unless you want to give him the relic Gorget of Eternal Hate, which gives the bearer a +1 armor save and a 4++ invul. But that would means spending 3CP just to equip out one character, which sounds like a lot.

Anyway, if you just want a glass cannon. He can be equipped with the daemon weapon Ul'o'cca the black, which makes his weapon - every successful wound deal a MW extra. At a base, he is already doing 6 attacks with Str 7, AP3, Dmg 2, and 6s to hit do 2 MW. And he already rerolls wounds against characters. So, just with this alone, you are probably going to kill most characters with tons of MW.

If its not enough MW, you can add on flames of spite. So now, you reroll wounds on everything and 6s to wound cause 1 extra MW. lol Alternatively, you can go hatred incarnate for +1A, +1S and you now reroll hits all the time. So you can reroll all of your 7 Str 8 hits to fish for 2MW each hit, and if you are in Wanton Slaughter, 6s also explode for more hits lol.

And all this for just 65 points. Hmm... I wonder if there is a possible list where we spam three of these things, because they are only an elite choice. So, they don't even take up a HQ slot.

MoE might be a bit of a trap to upgrade in any meaningful way, his base axe cutting out on any 6's to hit will reduce the benefits from daemon weapon/flames of spite upgrades - but for 65 points he's pretty solid as is
   
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 p5freak wrote:
Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.


Nah, I don't think they will. (I hope they don't). The cult troops will always be superior to legionaires because they are elite choices. Only in Emperor's children are noise marines troop choices and I bet they will eventually get their own book and then become an elite choices too. So, honestly, unless we are talking about Emperor's Children, if we are playing all the other CSM legions, then we should be comparing cult troops with our other elite slot units, like Chosen, possessed, Terminators.

When I started looking at it this way, I realised I should stop trying to compare legionaries to things like plague marines, or chosen because they are in a totally different slot. Honestly, we are spoilt for choice when it comes to elite slots. Including the cult troops, we have 7 infantry type units in elite slots. Pretty sure we can find the particular type of elite choice infantry that suits our purpose. And thus, the troop slot becomes a "tax" simply because there is no way legionaires can ever be as good as our elite slot infantry. However, troops can be used to play the mission. Keep the troop units cheap and use them to do actions (which will be wasted on our powerful expensive elite slot units). Use them for mission objectives like Retrieve Nihilim data, any any type of action objective. Or use their objective secured ability to capture objectives. In fact, our troops may end up winning the most amount of victory points for us despite being the weakest infantry units in our army.

With that being said. We then kind of want to keep our troops either cheap but durable, or just cheap. lol There really is no point expending points trying to make them "better". If we want power, use our elite units to do the heavy lifting. (and our heavy support and fast attack choices too).

There is literally no way to improve a legionaire squad until it becomes as good as a rubric marine squad, or a plague marine squad, or a berserker squad. So, don't try. Just bring a cult marine squad in the elite slot if you want to. This also kind of means that Chosen, despite their improvements in their datasheet, are hard pressed to make it into an army list. There is just too much competition for good infantry choices in the elite slots (There are like seven!).

I do think that when it comes to match play. We need to seriously think about how we are going to get victory points. There are other armies out there with relatively easy secondaries. After looking through the chapter approved book, I realise we really need to plan for our secondaries. No point rocking up to a game, killing a lot of our opponent's army, and still losing because of low VP.

Our CSM secondaries are not great, and they need quite a bit of planning if you want to take them. And if we don't, that means we need to plan for taking one of the generic secondaries. Let me give an example of how we can even shoot ourselves in the foot if we just pick our own faction secondary without thinking it through. Take the CSM secondary "The Long War". This was a good secondary for us previously when we were 1W marines. We would charge onto an objective, kill everything on it and take it from our opponent. And we would be so fragile our opponent would easily kill us off our objective and take it from us again. So, we would keep on trading that objectives and that in itself plus taking the "Stranglehold" secondary would get us high points on both.

But now, there is no more "stranglehold" secondary. Its gone. And, now, our units are much more durable now. In fact, we can make a 10 man chaos terminator bloc that is as hard to kill as any of the other feared tanky blocs like Blightlords or scarab occult terminators bloc. This actually makes it outright BAD to take "the long war". Because we would take the objective with our terminator bloc (plus Abaddon), and we would hold it! While this is good for our primary, its bad for the long war. We could end up scoring low points on this objective.

I notice also that some of our objectives allow us to use biker units to perform the action. This actually means that instead of trying to get a slow moving infantry unit to do that action. We can have a biker unit zip 14 inches onto that point, and then perform the action. Like the black legion secondary "despoil the dominions" or the CSM "For the dark gods" can both be done by biker units. This actually makes me consider having a mark of nurgle biker unit which I can then do "grandfatherly blessings on". Such a tanky unit with transhuman has a good option of surviving while doing the action and it has the mobility to zip from point to point. So, suddenly a chaos biker unit is something I am seriously considering for one of the FA slots in my list.

If we don't want to look at our CSM secondaries, we then need to plan how to get two or three of the generic ones. And this is not easy too, because we have to then plan to get high points on generic secondaries. As an example. Let's say we pick a long time favourite shadow operations category called "Retrieve N data". This only gives 8VP now for capturing 3 and 12VP for capturing 4. If we are planning to take this secondary often, we might as well take 2 or 3 cultist troops units and strategic reserve them so that they can come in from the table edge and get us our VP for this secondary. Then we will be taking few if any legionaires. Bikers can do this too. So again, that nurgle mark bike unit that can zip onto the last fourth table quarter and do the action is really good now.

We should consider the warpcraft category secondaries too. We can make a big block of terminator tanky, marching up the board, and a psyker in that bloc performing warp ritual or mental interrogate is great! Our psykers are too good not to take. People are saying master of possession will be in almost every list. However! all the psychic secondaries require a psyker character to do actions. We cannot use an aspiring champion with a balefire tome to do our psychic secondary. A big consideration point... it is because the malefic discipline is so good, hence why people say the MOP is a must have. This means we want the MOP to cast his psychics every turn, we do NOT want to waste him performing a warpcraft psychic. This means that we need to plan to have a separate character that will be doing such a psychic action (like warp ritual or mental interrogate) instead of our MOP (unless we area ready to spend 1 CP every turn to have him cast one psychic and do one action). So, when planning our lists now, we need to designate a separate "warpcraft action" character, be it another sorcerer, or a Daemon Prince.

Now ignoring the kill secondaries, because that is opponent list dependent. there is also the battlefield supremacy secondaries. There is only two in this slot, behind enemy lines and engage on all fronts. Engage is now harder to do, it needs to be 3 man infantry or vehicle. Planning for behind enemy lines and engage on all fronts may call for different lists. Behind enemy lines, we can have a big terminator block with a character deep strike into the back lines (This can be screened out). Or we can also have individual single obliterator units deep strike in (harder to screen out, but easier to kill than a big termie bloc and a character). Engage on all fronts would be good with fast mobile units that can spread out on different quarters to engage on all fronts, or cheap cultist units coming in from strategic reserve (take note that single obliterators cannot score engage). I read that a qualifying engage unit is one that has at least a starting Strength of 3 models or vehicle/monster. This is big because it means that a 3 man bike can do engage and even if its killed down to 1 bike, it can still do engage! Again, we need to plan to have units in fast attack slots or units coming in from strategic reserve. Also how we play our fast units is different. We need them alive, we don't want to run them up the board, score engage one turn, and then have them blown up and that's it. Again, Nurgle or Tzeetch marked biker units are now looking extremely interesting. They can take a table quarter for engage, while they are doing an action for another secondary, and we can pop grandfather's blessing to give them transhuman to keep them alive.

I have now gone from not planning to have chaos bikers in my list to now thinking that at least one unit of a nurgle/Tzeentch biker unit is a must have. Maybe even more than one unit. Ultimately, if its match play, no point killing our opponent if we then lose on VP because of bad secondary play.

And the roles we have in mind for our characters change once we consider all these secondaries play. Like if we are relying on our Daemon Prince for our warpcraft secondary, then we need him alive, we can't risk flying him recklessly deep into the enemy army lines to assassinate a character.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 03:19:05


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Read all the leaks. Seems like someone might like the new chaos, but I'm just not feeling it. Pretty sad about it but I guess that's why I own other armies. GL I'll check back in on chaos in XI edition.
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





For their points, Plague Marines are the cheapest elite infantry we can spend to get all sorts of special weapons. What was GW thinking when they did this to plague marines lol.

A 10 man plague marine squad plus mark of nurgle only cost 225 points. These can be given tons of special weapon upgrades all for free. And its super durable too because they still retain disgustingly resilient correct?

So, does this mean they get both the Mark of Nurgle rule as well as their disgustingly resilient rule? Str 5 weapons are going to be -1 to wound on them, and they have -1 dmg on top of that!

And they still benefit from being Core and Let the galaxy burn (based on the goonhammer article yes they do). So, given their diverse range of special weapons, no matter what wanton phase we are in, something in the squad will benefit from it lol.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/06/30 03:09:29


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Looking further through this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH2lSGQOWko) to check out actual rules, and some good things.

1) The Cult Demagogue in the Dark Commune is a character, and the Look Out, Sir rule actually protects the entire unit - LOS requires only that the unit 'contain any character models <9W' and then the whole unit can't get shot if it's being protected. So the Commune isn't going to get shot off the board immediately, other units can take the shots. Still probably not that great, but it does let you cram Prescience + Dark Zealotry (or other niche powers/prayers) into a single unit for 100 points that would cost 190 to take as power-armored guys.

2) Let the Galaxy Burn works on warpflame weapons because the definition of Flame Weapons in the codex refers to any weapon that has the word 'flame' in its profile. So a 10-strong rubric marine unit does 27 autohits at minimum if all the rubrics have flamers, and on average does almost 50 S4 autohits at AP-2. Even though they don't gain your legion trait, they do gain your legion keyword, so all of your legion-keyed buffs work on them. The Sorcerer can know Warptime by default, so Advance + Warptime can get a 24+d6" threat range. I play Alpha Legion, so with the pre-game move that gets you up to 30+d6" threat range on Turn 1. Even though it looks like they can't gain the Icon keyword for the extra AP without errata, that's still quite a reasonable threat. And you can use VotLW on them for +1 to wound, or the Great Sorcerer to get action + psychic power.

Or, if you equip the Rubrics with bolters, even though you don't get the Icon, you can use the new Demon Shells strat to give them an extra 6" of range AND a further -1 AP, so now you've got AP-3 bolters, and you can juice that up further with Relentless Devastation to get full rapid-fire out to 30". Honestly, it seems like Rubrics are one of the better units to take buffs. They'll be very command point hungry, but it feels like they're one of the better ranged anti-infantry options we've got.

3) And speaking of Warptime, even though it's nerfed, I still think it'll be very useful for a few other units as well. A fully kitted Plague Marine Squad with 2 Blight Launchers and 3 Plasmaguns (one on the champ) can be moved up much faster than in a Death Guard army, and therefore can be used more effectively as a bullying tool. Unfortunately they don't get Inexorable Advance (not in a Death Guard detachment) so their output won't be as great and they are affected by difficult terrain.

4) Between Rubric Sorcerers, the Dark Commune, and the Balefire Tome, there's a lot of ways to get a bunch of random psykers into the army, so it might be worthwhile to go for a secondary like Psychic Interrogation. You can easily build your army to have enough redundancy in psykers so that you're not losing the spells you need on the turns you need them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/30 21:31:32


 
   
 
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