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Made in us
Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot




Somerdale, NJ, USA

Done.

Few minor spelling errors and the formatting on page 4 were my only (minor) gripes. Otherwise, very thorough and nicely laid out survey.

"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."

"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."

- 8k /// - 5k /// - 5k /// - 6k /// - 6k /// - 4k /// - 4k /// Cust - 3k 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Cool. I sat out the "Dark Ages" - but if I hadn't, I'd be a Long Hauler.

(After all, the dark ages were particularly dark for Sisters and GSC- my two favourite armies!)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/09 16:22:04


 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

"Early Classic Players" - those who played some combination of 3rd-5th edition moderately

"Dark Age Players" - those who played some combination of 6th-7th edition moderately

"Renaissance Players" - those who played 8th/9th moderately.


Thats going to be a hard one to nail down.

I played heavy from 3rd-5th, bailed out in 6th because it was so bad, came back moderately in 7th, played a little bit of early 8th and walked away permanently by the time of 8.5.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in gr
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Done! Played all the way from 4rth onwards... With Guard and Sisters through the 6-7 cluster%^&.

You shouldn't be worried about the one bullet with your name on it, Boldric. You should be worried about the ones labelled "to whom it may concern"-from Blackadder goes Forth!
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Finally got to this, apologies for the delay.

I started in 2nd, and filling out the survey made me realize that I probably had 50+ games for nearly all of 2nd through 8th, with a lull only during 5th, but even then it was a long enough edition that I played a bunch.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Filled out the survey, bit of a long thing but was honest as I could be.
I find the two biggest issues is the I-go/you-go method and the stupid amount of sources for game updates.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






364 survey responses and counting - thanks to all that have submitted. There is a LOT of data in there to unpack

My current plan is to leave it up until September 30th (Friday) and then lock it.

It'll take a bit to tease out some fun/interesting findings, but when I share an initial analysis of the results I'll also share the summary graphs for all of the responses and make the raw data available too.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Mezmorki wrote:
. . . but when I share an initial analysis of the results I'll also share the summary graphs for all of the responses and make the raw data available too.
^awesome. It'll be really interesting to see the data. Congrats on the poll!

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

Done.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Finished. I only had problems with one question - about unit reactions. Overwatch and Going to Ground are very different things IMO. The former is just added boring upkeep, a step that the game tells players to perform with no player agency involved. The latter is an interesting and relevant decision for players to make. Two entirely different worlds, hate the first one, love the second.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Overwatch is a relevant decision in 9th, and it's the first it feels like a tactical asset instead of a waste of everyone's time at the cost of balance.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Oh, I have hardly played any 9th (1 or 2 games before leaving with disgust), I was definitely referring to the "waste of time overwatch" you mention.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Cyel wrote:
Oh, I have hardly played any 9th (1 or 2 games before leaving with disgust), I was definitely referring to the "waste of time overwatch" you mention.


I understand, but my point was more like that overwatch can actually be a cool mechanic akin to going to ground if it comes with a downside - and downside doesn't have to be "pay X CP".

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





 Jidmah wrote:
Cyel wrote:
Oh, I have hardly played any 9th (1 or 2 games before leaving with disgust), I was definitely referring to the "waste of time overwatch" you mention.


I understand, but my point was more like that overwatch can actually be a cool mechanic akin to going to ground if it comes with a downside - and downside doesn't have to be "pay X CP".


I think Overwatch can be a fine mechanic without a downside, but it needs to actually do something. Hitting on 6's doesn't meaningfully impact the charging unit at a statistical level and just takes time to resolve. It doesn't kill enough models to either cause the charge to fail, give the defending unit an advantage, or degrade the attacker's power enough that the defender might survive. At best, it's just that meltagun giving your independent character pause, but one you take a moment to look at it rationally in the bigger strategic picture the risk of the meltagun drops out of the equation.

I would guess it was put in to avoid declaring multicharge on everything within 12" when the changed charges from 6" to 2d6". One unit firing overwatch doesn't do anything, but having half the army shoot at you on 6's does.




Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in cz
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers




Done. Thank you for making this.
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Cyel wrote:
Oh, I have hardly played any 9th (1 or 2 games before leaving with disgust), I was definitely referring to the "waste of time overwatch" you mention.


I understand, but my point was more like that overwatch can actually be a cool mechanic akin to going to ground if it comes with a downside - and downside doesn't have to be "pay X CP".


I think Overwatch can be a fine mechanic without a downside, but it needs to actually do something. Hitting on 6's doesn't meaningfully impact the charging unit at a statistical level and just takes time to resolve. It doesn't kill enough models to either cause the charge to fail, give the defending unit an advantage, or degrade the attacker's power enough that the defender might survive. At best, it's just that meltagun giving your independent character pause, but one you take a moment to look at it rationally in the bigger strategic picture the risk of the meltagun drops out of the equation.

I would guess it was put in to avoid declaring multicharge on everything within 12" when the changed charges from 6" to 2d6". One unit firing overwatch doesn't do anything, but having half the army shoot at you on 6's does.





Disagree, we use it in our 5th ed games and can be quite punishing. forcing players to make a tactical decision to charge or not especially when the charged unit has flamers. i have lost dreadnoughts, characters and assassins on the overwatch damage. against larger squads it usually does some attrition. it also helps both players feel more involved in the IGOUGO system.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Well there's a huge difference between Overwatch when implemented in post 8th than when it's plunked into something like 5th ed. For starters marines in 5th ed only have one wound, so some lucky small arms fire can actually knock out models of importance. (And a single Meltagun can actually cripple or destroy a Dreadnought relatively easily) Post 8th the ecosystem is different. Rolling and then rerolling a ton of dice only to have at most a single wound done to a 3W Custodes, or even a few wounds off a Dreadnought which slams into you anyways, or whatever sure feels like a big waste of time.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I would guess it was put in to avoid declaring multicharge on everything within 12" when the changed charges from 6" to 2d6". One unit firing overwatch doesn't do anything, but having half the army shoot at you on 6's does.

100% agree. It's crucial as a balance for assault mechanics.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well there's a huge difference between Overwatch when implemented in post 8th than when it's plunked into something like 5th ed. For starters marines in 5th ed only have one wound, so some lucky small arms fire can actually knock out models of importance. (And a single Meltagun can actually cripple or destroy a Dreadnought relatively easily) Post 8th the ecosystem is different. Rolling and then rerolling a ton of dice only to have at most a single wound done to a 3W Custodes, or even a few wounds off a Dreadnought which slams into you anyways, or whatever sure feels like a big waste of time.



That i can agree with. in 5th it enhances game play, but i walked away from current 40K after 8th dropped so i am not looking at it from that perspective since it is effectively an entirely different game.





GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Overwatch was criticized back in 6th already, when it was implemented. It made charging in an edition that made CC already very difficult even harder. I can't imagine it being useful in 5th edition. Shoot the orks, shoot them again in Overwatch, hit them first in CC and then watch the remaining nob kill a Marine...
In 9th they toned it down luckily so you only use it on units that can actually have an impact.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Overwatch was criticized back in 6th already, when it was implemented. It made charging in an edition that made CC already very difficult even harder. I can't imagine it being useful in 5th edition. Shoot the orks, shoot them again in Overwatch, hit them first in CC and then watch the remaining nob kill a Marine...
Well it appears that you're saying that Overwatch was too effective, in which case we're in agreement that it had a meaningful impact. Whether it was too effective might be up for debate, but the point stands that it was implemented in order to discourage assaulting players from simply declaring a charge against everything within 12".

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols





washington state USA

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Overwatch was criticized back in 6th already, when it was implemented. It made charging in an edition that made CC already very difficult even harder. I can't imagine it being useful in 5th edition. Shoot the orks, shoot them again in Overwatch, hit them first in CC and then watch the remaining nob kill a Marine...


I do not know how far removed you are from 5th, i went back to playing it regularly about 5 years ago and from experience i can tell you CC is not only NOT difficult to get into and use effectively, but also very common to the point i always build my armies with roughly 50% focus just to deal with it. in the last couple weeks i have done battles against infantry based grey knights and khorne berserkers. while we were both mauled in both games, i was clearly on the losing side of those fights. on the question of orks specifically. i had a game where i was doing pretty well against NOB bikers but just got overrun by shoota boys who were thrown into the fray even though they were not that great in CC. with orks it is literally the green tide that makes up for the lower S/I stats.

We like using things like overwatch, snap fire, grenade throwing, and the like in our 5th edition games because it enhances game play and gets both players more involved within the IGOUGO systems restrictions.







GAMES-DUST1947/infinity/B5 wars/epic 40K/5th ed 40K/victory at sea/warmachine/battle tactics/monpoc/battletech/battlefleet gothic/castles in the sky,/heavy gear 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Total aside (but still on the topic of overwatch) .... in ProHammer we have "classic" overwatch and a reaction fire system.

Classic overwatch is like in 2nd edition where you give up your normal shooting in order to put the unit on overwatch. A unit on overwatch can fire normally at the start of your opponent's shooting phase (alternating fire with any units your opponent that remianed stationary). Overwatch fire is ranged limited (only with 24") AND fire arc limited (we use a direction arrow counter, and each model only fires in its forward arc). The latter in particular gives you maneuver options for counter-play.

Reaction fire is a little different. It can be used either in response to being shot by non-overwatch fire attacker OR in response to having a charge declared against you. Reaction fire is limited in that each weapon makes HALF its number of normally allowed shows (rounded up) with a -1 to hit. Makes it a bit more effective than only hitting on 6's.

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

Just filled it out. A lot of my answers are probably a bit middle of the road. Very few rules got the worst or best responses, just variations of the middle responses. I think that's my biggest problem with most of GW's rules: decent-to-good ideas that just need refinement.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Jidmah wrote:
Cyel wrote:
Oh, I have hardly played any 9th (1 or 2 games before leaving with disgust), I was definitely referring to the "waste of time overwatch" you mention.


I understand, but my point was more like that overwatch can actually be a cool mechanic akin to going to ground if it comes with a downside - and downside doesn't have to be "pay X CP".


its impactful now, but i would argue its another step of making a shooting game more shooty, seems most editions are less and less assault friendly tyranids manage to do it well now but not many other armies manage it at high levels of play.

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






"Making a shooting game more shooty" :

The transition to TLOS in 5th played a big part in making the game more shooty. Better terrain rules help bring that under control, making more "shooty" room available for Overwatch.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Survey is now closed! 397 responses - which given the depth of the survey feels pretty good.

Feel free to drop a line here if there are particular questions that you think would be cool for me to analyze.

In the meantime, I need to do some heavy cleanup and reformatting of the data to be able to run the types of pivot tables operations I'd like.

I'll need a couple of weeks to get the data crunched and my initial findings posted. I'll start a new thread and link to that from here.

Thanks!

Want a better 40K?
Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
 
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