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pelicaniforce wrote:

I’m a fundamentalist on 40k. The very first article ever describing marine organs is the one that specifies “male hormones and tissue types.” The thing is, that article will still exist no matter what GW says, I don’t believe retcons matter, and modern GW has no connection to original/real 40k

I dunno.

Things change. Or is tigurius half eldar, do space wolves still live on lucan, the eye of terror periodically opens and shuts etc. And marines were t3 and were jusy drugged up junkies/criminals.

To me, just because something was originally written a certain way the first time doesn't make it any more 'real' or 'true' than a modern version; and the modern different version similarly isn't somehow 'lesser' either because stuff has been altered. Most of our stories, fairy tales etc have been changed over time like this.

Changing 'male' to 'youths' isn't much of a leap.

Wyldhunt wrote:It's awkward. There always *should have been* FSM, especially for the sake of not making the flagship army a boys-only club. But there's so much lore either stating or implying that there are no FSM that it's kind of hard to change at this point without it feeling really clunky and ham-fisted. The introduction of the primaris probably would have been the time to do it; emperor knows that doubling the size of the recruitment pool would have been way more helpful than adding a couple inches to the marines' height.

Basically, I'm all for FSM, I'm just not sure there's a particularly elegant way to introduce them. Then again, apparently squats have just kind of been around this whole time, so... *shrug*

Yeah, my thoughts are along these lines. If marines were designed today, i cant see them being mono-gendered.

While I have *no* major problems with the status quo and while I feel 'marines as make only' as a design choice is fine in principle, I also have no problems with a change, and marines drawing from both and can see legitimate value to the change, and not just on 'inclusion' or whatever buzz words the kids are using these days. Times have changed. And frankly there are far more important things that are core to marine 'identity' than them being a boys club. It's just one line written 40 years ago. Change 'male'to 'youth' and marines are still marines.

Im thinking more that it increases the design space and there are some very interesting directions to go. History and myth have sone wonderfully strong female characters and groups (valkyries being an obvious one) that would be wonderful source material. l've seen some awesome third party sculpts of female 'not-reivers' for example and would love to see more.

Primaris as an introduction would have been perfect. Caul giving a dry snarky response 'it could always be done this way' and gulliman just nodding his head and accepting it would have been enough.

Things change. Or is tigurius half eldar, do space wolves still live on lucan, the eye of terror periodically opens and shuts etc. And marines were t3 and were jusy drugged up junkies/criminals.

To me, just because something was originally written a certain way the first time doesn't make it any more 'real' or 'true' than a modern version; and the modern different version similarly isn't somehow 'lesser' either because stuff has been altered. Most of our stories, fairy tales etc have been changed over time like this.

All that stuff was RT/2nd ed era when the entire game wasn't anything more than a parody of WHFB that was considered the flagship game at the time.

The lore wasn't really set in stone until 3rd edition when the designers at the time decided to take a more serious approach to the game and its setting.

For roughly 20 years the lore was fixed and decided. it is the setting that has drawn in and kept so many loyal fans.

sci-fi and fantasy universes have a type of fanbase that is like no other. hardcore fans of Star Wars know what it is as do the trekkies. that is why when Disney destroyed the SW EU, or paramount does trash like STD the fans revolt.

It is no different with 40K. the fact that the current staff with few exceptions do not even understand the universe they are in charge of because they are so far removed from all the legendary creators who left the company long ago (Andy Chambers, Rick Priestly, Alan Bligh etc...) doesn't mean that it is good for them to tear the universe asunder to make it fit some modern troupe that has no basis in the setting.

It is loved because it is NOT our universe, it does not play by our rules.

 aphyon wrote:


sci-fi and fantasy universes have a type of fanbase that is like no other.

Toxic?

I still haven't yet heard a decent justification as to why we *need* FSM. The only excuses I've heard are generic:

- "We need representation!". No, we don't *need* this, and representation for who? 8' tall women? I'm partially deaf, should I be hounding GW to introduce Space Marines who can't hear above a certain frequency?
- "Because we should." Well that's pointless circular logic and doesn't help anything.

More like dedicated and invested. unlike the "anti-fan" who comes in new to the setting/hobby and tries to forcibly change it to fit a personal ideology....like demanding female space marines in a setting where they do not and cannot exist.

Valkyrie wrote:I still haven't yet heard a decent justification as to why we *need* FSM. The only excuses I've heard are generic:

- "We need representation!". No, we don't *need* this, and representation for who? 8' tall women? I'm partially deaf, should I be hounding GW to introduce Space Marines who can't hear above a certain frequency?
- "Because we should." Well that's pointless circular logic and doesn't help anything.

I also think 'need' is a bit too strong. There's nothing *wrong* per se with how it is now. But only doing stuff for *need* gets awfully reductive awfully quick.

But that said, representation isn't a bad thing either. And it's not for 8' women unless male sm's are also for 8' males... I mean are you an 8' superhuman?

aphyon wrote:More like dedicated and invested.

I'm also 'dedicated' and 'invested' and have been for 20 years.

aphyon wrote:unlike the "anti-fan" who comes in new to the setting/hobby and tries to forcibly change it to fit a personal ideology...

Or the toxic fan who refuses to consider any kind of change or deviation from their dogma because of their entrenchment in their own personal ideology regardless of how problematic it is/could be or its negative repercussions and consequences? See how easy it is to be reductive and nasty?

Wanting s change doesn't make you an 'anti fan'. Wanting things kept the same doesn't make you more of a 'fan' either.

And in any case, let's say Smudge puts some female heads on their marines. Or my Minotaurs captain is a female third party model. Neither affects you or the models you've built.

I'd be far more bothered if they turned 40k into 'peace and love-hammer', If tau tamed nids who then put aside teef and claws in favour of a vegetarian diet, with bio-ploughs and sustainable agriculture or if space wolves suddenly got civilized and threw away their beer, axes and pelts, and replaced them with prayer books than i would be if marines became co-ed. They're sexless agendered warmachines at the end of the day. Shouldn't really matter what they were before they were dosed with astartestosterone and marine-ified.

aphyon wrote:like demanding female space marines in a setting where they do not and cannot exist.

Half right. They don't exist in the setting (unless you write your own). But they can exist. And it wouldn't be the first time gw have changed things either... if they see a market or a use for it they'll do it, fluff be damned.

Deadnight wrote:

Or the toxic fan who refuses to consider any kind of change or deviation from their dogma because of their entrenchment in their own personal ideology regardless of how problematic it is/could be or its negative repercussions and consequences? See how easy it is to be reductive and nasty?

What negative repercussions and consequences are there if GW refuses to make FSM?

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

Or the toxic fan who refuses to consider any kind of change or deviation from their dogma because of their entrenchment in their own personal ideology regardless of how problematic it is/could be or its negative repercussions and consequences? See how easy it is to be reductive and nasty?

What negative repercussions and consequences are there if GW refuses to make FSM?

I was talking in general about an adamant refusal to change from a status quo whether its politics, real life or just 'fans' refusing to consider changes or additions to IPs especially decades after they were conceived.

But for me, personally- there's a great scope of design space that is left unexplored. (Im all about the models). Theres also the sillyness that marines are supposed to be a blank canvas and can be a pastel copy/paste of any colour, creed, culture, organisation,historical group, fantasy trope etc, but anything with breasts is banned and can't be allowed because of reasons. The dissonance just kinda bugs me, you know? Of all the things to say 'this isn't a part of their identity' I just think this is a silly hill to die on, you know? When it's a singke word in a book 40 odd years ago. At the end of the day, I just think it's a bit of a shame, really. If Halo's Spartans, for example can have female troopers, I dont see any issues with Astartes, in principle being the same - its the 20s now, not the 50s.

For other folks (like Smudge etc) there's a sense of alienation in not being represented (but they are better speaking for themselves than me). That's for them and I can't really speak for it - I'm represented well enough 'in game' by models and things thay vaguely look like me.
What i will say is the hostility inherent i
the response to those that do want this is often quite ugly with folks especially being made to feel unwelcome or unwanted in this space. And that's true for folks already engaged in the hobby as well as those that could be, but aren't because they feel disinclined to engage because of this. Imo it's not a good look for a community that is supposed to be welcoming and inclusive.

Just my 0.02

Edited for rule 1 - ingtær.

Can we drop this topic already?

No, the obligatory incindiary politisation must commence because some people can't deal with other opinions and or like to troll.

why is there a need to make the genetic killer-machines of a neo-fascist sci-fi society female?

so that they are a little less fascist and more kids friendly while killing civilians because of possible chaos corruption?

space-nazis should have female soldiers so the setting is more appropriate to modern times is stupid to begin with
not because there should be no female soldiers in a sci-fi setting, but that those are still space-nazis no matter if you include woman or not, so including them does not make them any better or the good guys

Here is the twist:

Cawl finds away to give SoB a Primaris treatment. Opens up a whole new Sisters of Battle Primaris models and their stats have all been punched up. They would still be in the SoB book, but they'd be Primaris in more or less every aspect.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Here is the twist:

Cawl finds away to give SoB a Primaris treatment. Opens up a whole new Sisters of Battle Primaris models and their stats have all been punched up. They would still be in the SoB book, but they'd be Primaris in more or less every aspect.

I'm playing devils advocate when I say this, but that is in itself the problem for some people. You're mistaking their gender identity with their physical form.

Oh goody, this thread again. Amazed to see we didn't even manage 2 pages before it went the way of all the rest.