Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Slayer6 wrote:
What GW needs to do is outlaw the use of old models if they have newer current ones, that are more than 10% different in scale... The old 3E Stormtroopers seem quite a bit more compact and shorter than the Scions and Kasrkin, and thus are easier to hide behind terrain... I just had a game where an opponent was able to hide virtually his entire Tempestus force behind a series of short walls that the top half of the heads of regular Tempestus Scions would stick over...

Ooooorrrrr you could get better at establishing expectations for your games and enacting social contracts when it comes to games.

If this Tempestus players was a friend of yours, then you could have said, once it was an issue 'hey, normally those models would be taller, can I still target them? You can of course see over that barricade too if you like, representing taller models'

Some people also put their whole squads on scenic bases. Even a little bit of cork board is enough to add a centimeter or two to the height of a model, making an already tall model much taller, and therefore able to see over things. Age of the model hardly matters in this case.

GW already has gotten rid of huge swathes of old models, either by not giving them any new rules at all, or putting them into Legends. I can understand that a person's first instinct at playing against a rogue trader era rhino parking lot is 'those are so much smaller and I should be able to target them easier', but take a step back and at least appreciate that the player has a bit of hobby history.

Now, if that player using rogue trader era models hasn't put a single dime into Warhammer 40k since rogue trader yet demands that the game and company conform to his ideals... well, that's another issue.

But GW don't need any further excuses to invalidate old models. Just work on your social grace when it comes to gaming with other players, or don't play against people that have older armies I guess.

I love how 90% of these "GW should" scenarios pretend as if 40k isn't an overwhelmingly casual sided game, that isn't bothered by, or in the least bit troubled with using out of date rules/models, etc.

"Hey that's a really cool looking model, what is it?"

"It's a 2nd Edition Space Marine Terminator, but it doesn't have the same profile, do you mind if I still use it?"

"Sure, no problem, I think it's really cool you still have those. Why don't we have a really fun game?"


Competitive player Jumps in:

" NO! YOU MUST ONLY EVER PLAY BY THE RULES OF THE CURRENT EIDITON, GET OUT OF HERE YOU FILTHY CASUALS!"

At least as a heavy Legends player, I don't have to worry about the constant shifts.

Pretty sure Catachans are from the late 90's.

Jarms48 wrote:
Pretty sure Catachans are from the late 90's.

Basic guardsmen, yes. HWTs, no.

The HWS is about 20 years old too from memory. Roughly 2002.

Jarms48 wrote:
The HWS is about 20 years old too from memory. Roughly 2002.

I remember the Cadian HWT coming out first, can't remember how far behind the Catachan one was. Cadians came out with the EoT codex in 2003 and the Catachan HWTs were not before that. Stuff of Legends' earliest catalogue (that they have available) shows them in the 2004 one, so late 2003 seems like a good estimate.

drbored 807661 11456713 wrote:

Ooooorrrrr you could get better at establishing expectations for your games and enacting social contracts when it comes to games.

Why should you do that though? In any other enviroment that involved competition you don't need to do the whole social things. Sports can be played by people not just hating each other, but in a litteral war state at the moment, and there are clear rules how to do it. What are people who are unlikable suppose to do? Or people that one to play a one of game at the place they are at, and there is zero chance they can build any social standing with the locals, bar the general dislike for foreign elements in closed groups. What about the age or social status aspect. The problems a 40 year old has with the game, with 20+ years playing the game are not the same as those a 14 year old are going to have. And the chance that the fix to any problem they may face while playing is the 14y old become the friend of the 40y old is rather slim, bordering on impossible. A cohesive set of rules, not matter good or bad, is better then a free for all, where people are told to make up the rules for each game, because such a system ends up bad for those down the social ladder at the store.

Karol wrote:

drbored 807661 11456713 wrote:

Ooooorrrrr you could get better at establishing expectations for your games and enacting social contracts when it comes to games.

Why should you do that though?

Because we're here to have fun and not be an antagonistic melon?

Jarms48 wrote:
The HWS is about 20 years old too from memory. Roughly 2002.

Gods above, 2002 was 20 years ago.
*dies*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

drbored 807661 11456713 wrote:

Ooooorrrrr you could get better at establishing expectations for your games and enacting social contracts when it comes to games.

Why should you do that though? In any other enviroment that involved competition you don't need to do the whole social things. Sports can be played by people not just hating each other, but in a litteral war state at the moment, and there are clear rules how to do it. What are people who are unlikable suppose to do? Or people that one to play a one of game at the place they are at, and there is zero chance they can build any social standing with the locals, bar the general dislike for foreign elements in closed groups. What about the age or social status aspect. The problems a 40 year old has with the game, with 20+ years playing the game are not the same as those a 14 year old are going to have. And the chance that the fix to any problem they may face while playing is the 14y old become the friend of the 40y old is rather slim, bordering on impossible. A cohesive set of rules, not matter good or bad, is better then a free for all, where people are told to make up the rules for each game, because such a system ends up bad for those down the social ladder at the store.

So, whether you're 14 or 40, playing a friendly game of just about anything is indeed possible.
It doesn't matter what age, gender, race, or anything else you are: a jerk is a jerk. If you're having a hard time getting along with people, then one of the first things you can do is swallow your pride, stop blaming external elements for your struggles, and start working on being a nicer person. Therapy is an option, as well as getting out of your comfort zone and trying to meet different kinds of people.

The game should not be designed to make up for people's lack of social skills. If you want a game where you don't have to have any social grace in order to have a good time, then there are many video games where you can solo-queue.

The way you learn social grace is by putting yourself into social situations and actively try to get along with the people around you. Learn what they like/dislike. Ask them questions. Talk about mutual interests.

It's incredible that a topic about 'how long till we get updated models of x and y' has come to this point.

drbored wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The HWS is about 20 years old too from memory. Roughly 2002.

Gods above, 2002 was 20 years ago.
*dies*

I'm pretty sure Skaven are still rocking around with plastics and metal models that are older than that

Tyranid stuff is likely coming with their next release. Not sure if it's going to be the starter rumor or just a big faction refresh in 10th, but I am pretty confident their older range will be cleaned up.

The Chaos Bikers one is weird. It was a part of that super reliable rumor drop, that was like 100% accurate. Not sure what happened there. Didn't come with WE either....

Eldar range has slowly but surely been getting updated. Would not be suprised if they get a kit or two with the Ark of Omens stuff. They've been releasing the aspects with their Phoenix lord recently for the ones that get updated, so I could see that pair as an update.

 Overread wrote:

drbored wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The HWS is about 20 years old too from memory. Roughly 2002.

Gods above, 2002 was 20 years ago.
*dies*

I'm pretty sure Skaven are still rocking around with plastics and metal models that are older than that

The Skryre Acolyte (FKA Poison Wind Globadiers) is from 1996 or so. The former Lord Skrolk, now just a generic Plague Priest is also from that time, as is the Warpfire Thrower. Oldest plastics they have are the Night Runners, which are the Skaven gang from Mordheim in 1999 repurposed.

Honestly, why do some of those need replaced? If the model functions, doesn't look flat out awful, and would serve no purpose but an unnecessary price hike by its redesign, then I see no reason to replace it. The Gaunt models look every bit as fantastic now as they did 20 years ago, there's no need to replace them.

Gaunt stuff definitely needs an update. The sprues are extremely wasteful with space, the heads are pain to assemble and hormagaunts in particular are both very unstable and fragile.

Still the designs should remain mostly the same.

Hormagaunts are vastly more stable now than in their first release (all metal - all leaning forward and with a huge swept back alien head and swept forward lance arms)


Gaunts I could actually see getting a neat rework. One big thing you notice with Tyranids is that everything is big chunky ball and sockets and chunky parts. Compared to their artwork and their lore and most other armies, Tyranids are big chunky!

Now granted ball and socket 100% works for them, however I could see Gaunts getting a slimming treatment to be more, well, gaunt like their lore, art and original model was. And freaking yet get rid of that split head which is a nightmare ot assemble.




That said Tyranids ARE in a good spot. So much so its shocking GW hasn't updated their last models (the bio/pyro vores and lictors). Otherwise its mostly a case of "perhaps a new updated sculpt for the Carny" or such. Replacing rather than adding too.

Of course the big worry is replacements dropping options - I could easily see the carny losing some weapon options with an update and its almost become stuck. It used to be the big toolbox beatstick of the army. The all purpose role unit - now there are specialist big modern models that do those jobs better (at more points cost). So Carny I could see getting a rework .


That said Tyranids are in a decent spot and have been for a long time. If they get centre stage attention I'd be expecting more updates than fresh things.

Tyranids are getting a range refresh next summer, so I'd expect most of the oldest kits to get looked at then.

There was a new Missionary type added in Blackstone Fortress, so they're still part of the current game / vision.

I'm expecting Warp Spiders and Striking Scorpions to come out with the 10th ed. Eldar book in Q4 2023.

Rhinos and Land Raiders are probably lower down the last, same with the Vyper.

drbored wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The HWS is about 20 years old too from memory. Roughly 2002.

Gods above, 2002 was 20 years ago.
*dies*


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

drbored 807661 11456713 wrote:

Ooooorrrrr you could get better at establishing expectations for your games and enacting social contracts when it comes to games.

Why should you do that though? In any other enviroment that involved competition you don't need to do the whole social things. Sports can be played by people not just hating each other, but in a litteral war state at the moment, and there are clear rules how to do it. What are people who are unlikable suppose to do? Or people that one to play a one of game at the place they are at, and there is zero chance they can build any social standing with the locals, bar the general dislike for foreign elements in closed groups. What about the age or social status aspect. The problems a 40 year old has with the game, with 20+ years playing the game are not the same as those a 14 year old are going to have. And the chance that the fix to any problem they may face while playing is the 14y old become the friend of the 40y old is rather slim, bordering on impossible. A cohesive set of rules, not matter good or bad, is better then a free for all, where people are told to make up the rules for each game, because such a system ends up bad for those down the social ladder at the store.

So, whether you're 14 or 40, playing a friendly game of just about anything is indeed possible.
It doesn't matter what age, gender, race, or anything else you are: a jerk is a jerk. If you're having a hard time getting along with people, then one of the first things you can do is swallow your pride, stop blaming external elements for your struggles, and start working on being a nicer person. Therapy is an option, as well as getting out of your comfort zone and trying to meet different kinds of people.

The game should not be designed to make up for people's lack of social skills. If you want a game where you don't have to have any social grace in order to have a good time, then there are many video games where you can solo-queue.

The way you learn social grace is by putting yourself into social situations and actively try to get along with the people around you. Learn what they like/dislike. Ask them questions. Talk about mutual interests.

It's incredible that a topic about 'how long till we get updated models of x and y' has come to this point.

Pretty sure Karol has opened up to tell us he is autistic, while I agree that wargaming is a social hobby the world at large needs to do far more at accommodating and welcoming neurodivergant folk, including in social situations.

I worry about my Space Marine Scouts.

I know they're ugly, outdated, and unplayable these days but they're a big part of my armies fluff.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I worry about my Space Marine Scouts.

I know they're ugly, outdated, and unplayable these days but they're a big part of my armies fluff.

Shame that both the rules and models are so lackluster for them. (I don’t mind the sculpts on the snipers as much, but the other kit is just sad)

My pipe dream is that they put the rules/fluff/options for them and all the phobos marines in a blender and remove the distinctions, so you could use either the old scouts or new phobos models to play flexible initiate units. But that would require them to erase the distinction between primaris and firstborn, and the NMNR kit-based option restrictions, so I don’t see it happening.

Which is sad. I love scouts and their place in the lore/army, but they just suck SO hard these days.

Dai wrote:



Pretty sure Karol has opened up to tell us he is autistic, while I agree that wargaming is a social hobby the world at large needs to do far more at accommodating and welcoming neurodivergant folk, including in social situations.

Karol's opinions on gaming have nothing to do with whether or not they're autistic, but more to do with the super competitive sport academy place they attend.

You can have friendly competitive communities in which people are expected to social and respectful and friendly, but are also expected to play to win.

In most games, social skills has nothing to do with how good you play. 40k is weird in which playing to win can be considered bad to the point WAAC and competitive player are almost considered synonyms.
To be fair this is in great parts thanks to GW's poor rule writing, but to be also fair sometimes it seems part of the 40k community doesn't want a tight ruleset.

 Tyran wrote:
You can have friendly competitive communities in which people are expected to social and respectful and friendly, but are also expected to play to win.

In most games, social skills has nothing to do with how good you play. 40k is weird in which playing to win can be considered bad to the point WAAC and competitive player are almost considered synonyms.
To be fair this is in great parts thanks to GW's poor rule writing, but to be also fair sometimes it seems part of the 40k community doesn't want a tight ruleset.

I think the WAAC bit is because 40k has like... A gak ton of investment.

Competitive games are, broadly, easy to swap things around in. I can play League of Legends or SC2, and all I have to do to chase the meta or be super competitive is pick a specific hero and follow a build order. It's a 40 minute commitment, tops. While there are "physical" examples of competitive nerddom such as MTG, even that is relatively small in time commitment. It doesn't take me long to throw together a deck (assuming I can buy all the competitive cards with unlimited money$$$$) and, when I'm playing someone, it's generally a 10-15 minute commitment to be competitive.

40k on the other hand is fething expensive. A competitive 40k army, with a sideboard, is substantially more expensive than a competitive MTG deck (in my limited knowledge). And that's before talking about the time commitment. Where as I can buy an MTG deck and simply go play, I have to buy a 40k army and then spend literal days assembling and painting it. There's a lot more time involved in playing too. A fast gave of 40k is comfortably two hours, which is orders of magnitude more than the mentioned LoL or MTG game.

So when those various factors are combined together, it's a lot easier to be upset when a competitive player pushes your face in. You've gone through a lot more money and "effort" to have fun, so the reaction to being denied that will be more visceral. More-over it's a lot more obvious when someone is shooting for that hyper-competitive styling, simply due to the various elements they have to combine to get there.

And that's to say nothing of 40k just being a really bad competitive game. Bad as in it's not even remotely designed for actual ranked play, like many other games are, and very blatantly breaks down as soon as you swap the beer and pretzels for serious faces and rules lawyering.

A competitive MtG deck is more than a 40k army.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A competitive MtG deck is more than a 40k army.

depends on the deck (and format) and army tbh

GW will be soft-squatting older minis without actually taking the minis out of production right up until they burn down 40k and reboot it in, oh, three years or so. And even then expect to see the same old classic Rhino kit remain in production forever as they frantically try to psych themselves up to trigger the lynch mobs with the inevitable "yeah, we don't want to support old-Marines anymore" announcement.

 Tyran wrote:
You can have friendly competitive communities in which people are expected to social and respectful and friendly, but are also expected to play to win.

In most games, social skills has nothing to do with how good you play. 40k is weird in which playing to win can be considered bad to the point WAAC and competitive player are almost considered synonyms.
To be fair this is in great parts thanks to GW's poor rule writing, but to be also fair sometimes it seems part of the 40k community doesn't want a tight ruleset.

Yes and no.

As with pretty much any hobby, if you’ve an interesting in being at the top of your game, you cash sink is going to be more than someone more focussed on the taking part.

On the rules? For those of us who’ve been around since or near the beginning, wonky and shonky rules are just…par for the course. That’s not to justify it like, but it might explain why some have a Make Do And Mend approach. I wouldn’t say no to a “perfect” set of rules, but until that day house rules and player agreed tweaks are part and parcel of the whole of the thing.

And that extends to regular rules updates. Whilst the era was just before I got properly involved, Rogue Trader is an interesting example. From the first book to the last, it evolved quite rapidly, and whilst most stuff was later compiled into retail volumes, most of the tweaks and changes first came in White Dwarf articles. This held true in 2nd Edition and that general period, as Epic also saw quite an extensive number of new units introduced via White Dwarf, and few were ever collected into retail volumes.

As I said. This isn’t to be taken as some half arsed attempt to justify these issues. Just an attempt to explain why myself and others just aren’t all that bothered by it. I’m not expecting or demanding anyone agree me or stop calling for change either, just for the record.

Legends is such a missed opportunity. Given that it is a bunch of PDF documents, keeping it updated is almost zero effort - it would be super easy to take up a stance of all current kits in codex, anything without a kit gets fully legal rules in legends. With how many writers and painters GW has on payroll, you could even get them to put together modelling articles for making models without kits to drum up some sales interest (hey kids, are you too young to have ever seen a mutilators kit in a store? no worries, kit bash terminator bodies and possessed arms and presto - they look better than the official models did anyway!).

It will take GW as long as they want to update legends - they don't see it as the sales opportunity it could be. Removing old plastic will happen at a faster pace though as they see dude in a garage selling 3d printed stuff as an existential threat.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I worry about my Space Marine Scouts.

I know they're ugly, outdated, and unplayable these days but they're a big part of my armies fluff.

I think Primaris Scouts are an inevitability. Templars already got Primaris Neophytes,* vanilla ones will follow sooner or later.

(* Which I used to convert some decent looking scouts for my chapter.)

 Crimson wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I worry about my Space Marine Scouts.

I know they're ugly, outdated, and unplayable these days but they're a big part of my armies fluff.

I think Primaris Scouts are an inevitability. Templars already got Primaris Neophytes,* vanilla ones will follow sooner or later.

(* Which I used to convert some decent looking scouts for my chapter.)

Primaris Scouts? WTF do you think all those Phobos units are? Primaris Neophytes exist because you need to call those Phobos models in the Primaris Crusaders squad something.