Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Niiai wrote:
I am not tracking your scenario.

What units are you scout moving with? Rhinoes does not have core. The units inside the rhino can not move out of it. (At least as it is written now.)

Perhaps the eightbound have core. (Regular posses do not I think.)

The Rhino doesn't scout move (because it can't), and whatever is deployed in it doesn't do anything during the pregame scout move (because they can't).

After scout moving Invocatus and any 2 core units (Eightbound if they are core will be great, Contemptor dreads would be interesting), the back of Invocatus' cavalry base will be about 8.5" outside your DZ (he moves 12" and the cavalry base is at least 90mm/3.5" long because that's what current Juggernaught models have). Everything in your DZ during turn 1 movement phase now cannot benefit from Invocatus' leading the charge aura. However if you had a Rhino carrying a core unit parked right on the edge of your DZ, you could disembark the core unit from it which would deploy them 3" forward (so potentially 5.5" from Invocatus) - the disembarked core unit can now be selected to make a normal move or advance, and will be just inside the aura when it is selected to do so. This unit would get a total of 3" from the rhino, 2" from Invocatus, their normal move + D6" advance (so 12-17" if it were done with Berzerkers).

Any other non-terminator infantry hanging around in your DZ can then jump in the now empty Rhino. The Rhino doesn't get any bonus move from Invocatus (out of aura range and not core), but an advancing Rhino is still way faster than running on foot.

The idea is Invocatus' scout move gets 2 units across the board and charging on turn 1, and the Rhino can get up to 20 models across the board and charging by turn 2.

I am afraid World Eaters will end up either by having some broken rules that allow them to dominate the game hard or end up bottom tier otherwise. They seem to lack serious output in 2 game phases (no psy and no serious shooting), have a durability comparable with CSM so far and habe to make up for this in meele alone. To reach meele there is the first obstacle of a delivery system. Rhinos and Raiders are fun and a way to go, but honestly 1-2 Rhinos will be popped T1 in most games. Their Damage Output has to be enormous to excuse all these drawbacks in design but honestly I expect Berserkers to perform similar or even worse than Plague Marines in DG.

Unless WE have AP-2 or better on average I could imagine them to profit from the removal of AoC as it will soften up their targets.

Blood Tithe was a heavy flawed mechanic from AoS and I hope the devs were told the lessons learned from AoS so they do not repeat the same design fails. AoS had BloodTithe deplete completely if spend on a low tier buff, which was ridiculous considering how hard the resource was to obtain. The interesting thing about the mechanic is that it amplifies the army in later turns. This means it makes it easier to steamroll your opponent or to rubberband if the first turns go downhill. In the end we cannot say much unless we have all the rules available (leak please).

Aha, yeah that rhino jumping reads a lot better then when you explained it the first time. It is a good plan.

It stil does not sound very good compared to just having the army in jump packs like blood angels. Melee without delivery is just cannon fodder.

As lizard Charles said above the melee profile needs to be really good to compensate for only reaching the enemy piece meal. The current bersker profile is quite impressive but it stil needs more attacks and ap. Perhaps S5 AP2 6 attacks hitting on 2s or something.

AP -1 is worth nothing due to AoC. With DG, Creations of Bile, Sisters, TS being quite up in the Meta the normal Chainsword with AP-1 is just worthless. CSM profit from the Icon for AP-2 but if Zerkers don’t have AP-2 then Zerkers are in a bad spot

Rumours are armour of contempt is going away. We have to wait and see though. Also, weather it is a good or a negative for berserkers we will have to wait and see also.

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
AP -1 is worth nothing due to AoC. With DG, Creations of Bile, Sisters, TS being quite up in the Meta the normal Chainsword with AP-1 is just worthless. CSM profit from the Icon for AP-2 but if Zerkers don’t have AP-2 then Zerkers are in a bad spot

By the time we comes out aoc is no more outside votann

Something of note is that because a CSM boarding party list can only take the Dark Commune, a psychic unit, as a second HQ, it looks like World Eaters can only have one HQ for a boarding party detachment. I think that it might be fun to bring Kharn along with max Berzerkers, a Master of Executions, and two units of Terminators or one unit of Terminators and one of Possessed. I personally would kit out the MoE with the relics of the Talisman of Burning Blood and the Gorget of Eternal Hate.

One idea that I had when it comes to the issue of World Eaters using regular Chaos Terminators vs. getting Red Butchers is that there could be a situation similar to that with the Death Guard, with two types of Terminators. The regular Terminators could be like Blightlords and serve as basic assault and ranged units, while the Red Butchers could be more specialized, possibly with no ranged weapons but with unique weapons and abilities for melee combat.

With the leaks so far what you are suggesting is that the unit is called Terminators, but has a red Butcher upgrade that costs no point change and that you can build from either the current chaos space marine tenrinator boxset, or some other boxset they have managed to keep secret so far.

That is very doubtful.

 Niiai wrote:
With the leaks so far what you are suggesting is that the unit is called Terminators, but has a red Butcher upgrade that costs no point change and that you can build from either the current chaos space marine tenrinator boxset, or some other boxset they have managed to keep secret so far.

That is very doubtful.

More recent leaks are saying that the "Red Butchers" stratagem is now +1 damage in the fight phase for 2CP. It works on both Terminators and Eightbound. There's no pre-game terminator upgrade anymore, save those CP for the game itself as we'll need them!

After picking up 10 fairly cheaply, I've been trying to find ways to make Terminators work with their slower movement compared to Eightbound. However now that AoC is gone the latter do seem quite vulnerable to be sending out first turn.

One idea I'll try is to use Invocatus to launch a large Terminator unit 14" forwards to a mid-table objective on turn 1, ready for a turn 2 charge. They can score while their ranged weapons pick off targets most likely to give up precious early tithe points. Later on CORE gives terminators access to some good stratagems, including fight on death and extra MW to crack tough targets. Any opponent trying to focus damage on that unit will have to let through all the faster stuff like Eightbound as they setup for turn 2 charges as well.

What do you guys think of the blood tithe mechanic? Personally, I've wanted something like this for a while.

They had it in AoS and from my understanding it was considered bad. Also, if you get blood point for each unit that does it encurages a lot of chaff units.

But perhaps it is better implemented here.

My biggest concern is stil unit delivery.

 Niiai wrote:
They had it in AoS and from my understanding it was considered bad. Also, if you get blood point for each unit that does it encurages a lot of chaff units.

But perhaps it is better implemented here.

My biggest concern is stil unit delivery.

Tithe had major problem in AOS in that using it resetted. Oh you got 7? But want to use that cool fight? Too bad. Cost you all your points.

They got rid of that and gave another(albeit not reliable) to score those and now it works. While khorne warscrolls still are way below others thanks to arms race cunning use of tithe can actually give them some sort of fighting chance.

Khorne Daemonkin had blood tithes and it was the most fun codex I've played. Looking forward to the blood tithes. Win or lose khorne wins.

 Niiai wrote:

My biggest concern is stil unit delivery.

given they have
rhino and land raider access
move 6-9" off their datasheet
pregame moves
+2" movement WLT
the blood surge ability
strat icon of wrath for 3d6 drop lowest charge
blood tithe +1 charge
skulls for the skull throne
deep strikes
and an angron that doesnt stay dead so you are encouraged to YOLO him

i'm not terribly worried for world eaters. the play style might get stale in the long run, but thats a different issue.

i've been playing goffs for the last year, and i am terrified of what i saw yesterday. rolling buckets of dice AND hitting harder than i do. buckets of dice from any unit counteract threat saturation and i dont have any combat tricks really to get more fights in before WE. going to be interesting to figure out how to beat thats for sure.

While there's a lot going for the codex, I'm still really disappointed that there's only one generic infantry HQ. Hopefully we'll get one other one next edition, or the ones from the CSM codex (minus the psykers) will be allowed, but with +1 strength and attack, Let The Galaxy Burn removed, and the World Eaters abilities added in. I do think that melee-oriented Helbrutes could be really going in this army, with the added strength and attack.

With blood tithe trigger of every unit that dies in the game small cheap units seems to be quite good. Most armies will be running 3 1 man unit of spawn, unless another fast attack unit is key to the Battle plan.

So it looks like 3 Spawns will be mandatory. Easy BTP, always nice to have something to put on an objective somewhere, go in to Angrons Bodyguard Thingy I guess. Angron will most likely also be an Autoinclude as it is just stupid value with 360pts that will generate half of the btp needed to get him back.

The rooster basically either says go for an 8b/x8b spam, take oldschool units (terminators, zerkers in transporters) or go for the monstermash with CSM Vehicles, as well as playing anything in between these three archetypes. Deamon Allies open up room for a bit of variation, I guess I will give Skarbrand a shot as his morale ignore aura as well as the bonus attacks seem really neat to go along WE. Spaming some dogs, maybe even Karanak, seems like a good way to bolster against psykers. While this is suprisingly quite a lot of possibilities for list building, I am a bit annoyed that they wasted a whole part of the book to promote the eightbound spam. I really hope the oldschool units will remain valid picks for strong lists

It is worth pointing out that the rhino will give 2 blood points (well, unless they kill two in one turn.) So with some rhinoes we can get the blood points rolling (this is as a plan b. Plan a they don't kill them and we get the charge.)

But after that it is hard to find blood points. 19 jackals is 70 points. Master of execution is 65. 5 berserkers i 110(!).

I also don't know who will be the biggest benefittee of blood points buffs. Many smaler units or high impack quality units.

First of all: You always want BTP drawn from your opponents units. This is the point which decides if you can snowball or if you just try to rubberband back in to the game. Kill MSU units, use that bit of firepower you have to crack open transporters and stuff.

As already mentioned, Spawns will be 75 pts for 3 BTP in a unit slot that is not contested by any other unit. The cost here is to give up on the grind them down objective.

I assume most lists will run 2-3 Rhinos and maybe a Landraider.

At this point I wonder if MSU squads of Zerkers that share a Rhino are not the way to go. More flexibility and double the BTP, also more attacks due to additional veteran and eviscerator.

 Niiai wrote:
It is worth pointing out that the rhino will give 2 blood points (well, unless they kill two in one turn.) So with some rhinoes we can get the blood points rolling (this is as a plan b. Plan a they don't kill them and we get the charge.)

But after that it is hard to find blood points. 19 jackals is 70 points. Master of execution is 65. 5 berserkers i 110(!).

I also don't know who will be the biggest benefittee of blood points buffs. Many smaler units or high impack quality units.

Since the blood point powers are army-wide for the rest of the game, it doesn't matter- everyone gets more from the 'kill more' buttons. All WE units (not allies) including jakhals and daemon engines get every buff from the moment they're turned on. Only exception is angry ron recycling.

You can easily have cheap jakhals, rhinos and spawn and still have a bunch of really scary things.

I don't think the math works like that. While it is true that a high tide raises all boats, some of the units benefit from different bonuses very different.

Terrible and utterly dreadful codex release. I'd ask people to withhold their money and not validate GW's poor behavior but unfortunately I know better.

 Niiai wrote:
I don't think the math works like that. While it is true that a high tide raises all boats, some of the units benefit from different bonuses very different.

Not... really.
Almost every unit benefits from +1 to hit (exalted eight don't generally, but they start at WS 2+)
Almost every unit benefits from -1 AP (maybe don't take when facing light infantry swarms, but having most of the army running around at AP -3 is stupid good, and for the most part, even the infantry armies have been encouraged not to be in 9th)
If you need the extra charge range for your chargers, then +1 charge is great.

after that, you can fish for 6s if you want, but the defensive boosts aren't all that great (and a little unwanted if you're running the MSU swarm the codex seems designed around for more blood points). And you can always just not take those and turn Blood into VPs.

The thing with small units vs big quality units is it doesn't really matter- they cost the same and limited FOC slots simply aren't an issue. Special gear is 1/5 (or 10) so again MSU is fine. You might as well spread out and max out Blood points and sheer killing power in each unit. There are no support pieces or psykers in this army to provide layered buffs.

Having multiple units of Berserkers or eightbound is better, you can converge when you need to. Jakhals exist to provide blood points and ablative wounds so you can maybe shove a mace-wielding dishonored down something's throat before the unit dies.


The only major thing that operates on a unit basis is strats. There are some that are better with big units, but mostly they help you overkill more. Denial, Countercharging or Fight on Death are all better in most cases.

Voss wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I don't think the math works like that. While it is true that a high tide raises all boats, some of the units benefit from different bonuses very different.

Not... really.
Almost every unit benefits from +1 to hit (exalted eight don't generally, but they start at WS 2+)

In your first sentence you make a claim. And then in the next sentence you prove the exact opposet of what you claim.

One would need to run mathhammer on this.

Just to kickstart a bit of discussion since the book and army is offically out now.

While we have the two subfactions, I'm going to say that I think the base WE one is the more competitive one. It sucks they pretty much put all the utility strats in one subfaction, and movement in the other. That being said the Utility ones outweight the movement ones, even though there are some really great Red Angel ones.

The Fight on Death for core is really key to the game plan. WE are not like sister and can consistently trade up, so this is a pretty key strat. Since most of your army is going to be 8bound and Zerkers, it's really handy. The +1 Damage is also really great for pushing through, but may be a tad less needed since Lacerators are Damage 3 on the 8bound SGTs.

When it comes to blood tithe, I think you almost always want to start with the 6+ FNP, unless up against a Psychic Army in which case you'd get the 5+ against MWs. From there you almost always want the +1 to charges. Flubbing a charge is the last thing you want to see as a World Eater player. The nice thing about all of these? They are cheap BT cost at 3 BT and 2 for the Mortals protection.

From there, you have some choices depending on army comp and opponent comp. The 6's to explode is real nice if you have a bunch of characters and X8B. The +1 to hit is nice if you are up against a lot of -1 to hit. You really need the +1 AP if you are Berzerker heavy.

That being said, Berzerkers are... not great right now. Missing the boat for some free wargear and clocking in at 22pts a model is just too much. They at min need the Chainglaive/Icon to be free, and probably should be 1-2 pts less per model.

I think most comp lists probably start with the following and build out from there:

3x5 8Bound, Lacerators
2x3 X8B, Double Chainfist
3x1 Spawn.

Thoughts on a MSU rhino rush build with Invocatus leading with 2 big squads of Eightbound? The rhinos will get popped and give 2 BTP or deliver their Berzerkers and then go move block and tag other units.

Imperial Armour FAQ is up, seems like we get everything that isn't hard coded to another god. Weirdly "the blood tithe" datasheet ability is not given out to anyone, but it doesn't seem to make any difference as everyone generates BTP's and tithes apply to World Eaters models, not units with the ability. Still no change at all regarding modern models (no Kratos, none of the IA models get new options from the new plastic kits).

Where is that update? In the Imperial armour book faq?

 Niiai wrote:
Where is that update? In the Imperial armour book faq?

You can access it via Warhammer Community: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/UneO8hFvB7VVrPtZ.pdf

At the moment it's the second one under the FAQ tab in Downloads&FAQs: https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/