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 Gert wrote:

Anyone claiming HH was a dead game prior to the AoD box is huffing glue fumes though. Blatantly untrue.

For ten years people complained that FW did way too much marine stuff... clearly a sign of an abandoned game with no support

Aecus Decimus wrote:
[
Then it is completely inexcusable for GW to not publish a quick errata adding 30 points to their cost. The only reason not to do it is if 30k is a low-priority tertiary game that gets a bare minimum of effort because sales don't justify real investment.

Emphasis mine. This is an extremely absolute statement. For a start, it assumes GW only ever makes the optimum decision (which historically they clearly haven't for rules), and there are always going to be multiple choices available with various pros and cons. Competence is not a guarantee.

For what its worth, I'm not saying the suggestion is wrong, but it is wrong to assume it is the only correct option unless you have access to information that is not publically available.

Likewise, opportunity cost is not the only reason a business can drop profitable business. A great example is US rail companies, that have deliberately dropped loads of profitable business because they are expected to show success via a very specific metric (operating ratio) to secure good share prices, even though the companies could make more money overall by diversifying traffic carried. I.e they would be richer, but some of the traffic would have unacceptably low profit margins within the metric they are expected to perform in.

Decimus, how many games have you played of 30k? I've played some (certainly want to play more) and have watched plenty as well. I can tell you that Contemptors are very good, but there is plenty of units in 40k that are as least as degenerate, if not moreso. If I went up against somebody running a Fury of the Ancients-style list, it wouldn't be easy, I would probably lose, but I wouldn't evaporate like I would in a similar situation in 40k. Plus, from even my limited experience, there are *definitely* things out there that are a lot scarier than Contemptors.

You make a lot of claims about both the financials and the rules of the game, but from my experience, your claims are wrong - it seems like you played once and got stomped by dreads, and now you're raging/extrapolating.

IMHO it is a niche game, but it is a highly successful niche game with its own market.

Likely it will never compete with 40k and people saying that it is outselling AoS are probably huffing on Citadel primer, but it doesn't need to directly compete and outsell GW's mainline games to be doing great.

 Tyran wrote:
IMHO it is a niche game, but it is a highly successful niche game with its own market.

Likely it will never compete with 40k and people saying that it is outselling AoS are probably huffing on Citadel primer, but it doesn't need to directly compete and outsell GW's mainline games to be doing great.

Since a lot of its models are and will by necessity be compatible to 40k, even trying to fit it into a framework of competing games is probably useless. 40k and 30k are more of a symbiotic relationship, in that there are good prospects to get a 30k player to at least dabble with 40k as well, which of course boosts overall sales. Conversely, a lot of 30k kits may be bought by 40k players that just like the style or want to use a relic unit in their marine or ad-mech force.

Based on what I see around here, and in webshop stock amounts compared with their main games, it's selling fairly well. It seems to be selling way more than other specialist games, and more on par with AoS. In a different league than 1.0 ever was, probably mainly due to plastic and affordability.

The starter restocks going on black Friday is probably due to overstocking, didn't happen here. Also, for many mortals with kids etc ut takes about a year or so to paint that box. So sales should naturally slow down a bit until all those Jumping on board with that box had finished a fair chunk of it.

The discussion on what support HH 1.0 had in the end seems a bit pointless. Obviously resources were diverted to create 2.0. It has been elevated to main game status.

Downsides - Contemptors need an obvious Errata points increase (meanwhile handled among friends), Reactions need to scale with game size and we need plastic assault marines/despoilers. And some other things that could do with tweaking in an Errata, e.g. Battle cannon.

Pretty healthy but could do even better with an Errata and more Troop/Line units in plastic.

I suspect Old World will have a smaller following and be more niche. But still really happy they are finally reviving their specialist games, which imho are generally far better than their main systems.

one more thing I like with HH2 that I think is successful, its not just the "old" 40k rules, as can be seen from the reactions its grown in a different direction and GW have been able to work with that to make them, and keep them, as different games

I'd expect a bit of learning between them in the future, e.g. would not be in the least surprised if "reactions" didn't find their way into 40k, though hopefully with a way to scale it by game size which then finds its way back

and at least locally, its got people playing GW games, which in turn has opened the door to LotR and Necromunda being played, win all round really

 Gert wrote:
GW says the AoD box sold well and people who don't like GW will say that's a lie. Some people claim the AoD box outsold the Dominion box for AoS and honestly I see no way to prove that true or false. People will claim that because there were a lot of AoD boxes it means GW overproduced whereas I see it as GW actually doing a proper job with the launch box by producing more than enough to keep the support of the game continuing. Some local communities will grow and others won't.

Yes, that seems like a good summary. As with everything, there is a deranged element on each side of the argument. There is the old guard of HH players who hate the new edition even more than they hate 9th Edition WH40k, hate the fact that GW went with Mk VI power armour, and especially hate all the new HH players who have jumped onto the bandwagon. And on the other side are the WH40k players who maintain that HH is a dead game, bitterly resent the resources that GW is devoting to it (because this means less stuff for WH40k), and make weird statements about HH being unbalanced at a time when 9th Edition is see-sawing all over the place.

As Gert said, it's subjective. Subjectively, I moved across from WH40k because I think the rule system is unnecessarily complicated and unintuitive, and the changes are too frequent. And my Orks always seemed to get the shaft. HH offered features which I had liked in previous editions of WH40k (like templates and specific rules for vehicles) and which I didn't like seeing dropped. And there are no stratagems. HH also offered the more retro aesthetic that I had always associated with this game. The Heresy fluff is in some ways more limited (and I miss my Orks), but it's also enjoyable to work within its pseudo-historical setting. It's very Marine-centric - I think that's a fair criticism. Hopefully it will gradually open up more, which would mean plastic kits for non-Marine factions, but I think this will take some time. Its rule system has some issues, I know, but they are far less problematic than WH40k's. They could fix them with an FAQ, and probably will, but one of the other advantages (to me) of HH is that it is not constantly being tinkered with.

Is it successful? I think it has been quite successful, judging mostly from what I see on the net. But if Dakka is any indication, it's still fairly niche - look at the relatively low level of traffic on this sub-forum. Our local GW has HH kits in stock, whereas it doesn't stock other non-core games, and they tell me it's selling well. The question is whether it can grow and attract continued support from GW. That will only happen if GW plows more into it. The biggest issue with HH at the moment is that lack of key (Marine) units in plastic. GW have pumped out an impressive number of plastic tank kits, and I think these, along with the 2 Dreadnought kits, have contributed greatly to the apparent success of the game. But I suspect that quite a lot of them were bought to add to WH40k armies (e.g. Deimos Rhinos and variants) or just for display. They may not continue to sell strongly. In the meantime, GW have held back on assault infantry, when these are a vital part of the game. They need to fill that hole quickly - and perhaps to look at units other than tanks that would make interesting and attractive plastic models. I'd argue they also need to do some generic character kits.

I think we're still in a transitional phase with HH. Many long-term HH players still haven't really accepted the new edition, and might become disenchanted. Many new players are still attracted by the novelty of it, the new models and (in cases like mine) the return to an earlier rules system. The plastic model range is still incomplete. It'll probably take several months before it's clear whether HH is a success and here to stay. I certainly hope so.

I think HH will/ does form a similar niche like lotr, a home for veteran players who don’t want to follow the fast changes and increasingly crazy designs in the two main games. Lotr still gained enough traction since the latest edition they did translated books again (in germany at least, there's really a strong and well organized fanbase here). Lotr has an advantage of a large legacy of plastic (and metal) miniatures, I'm thinking GW wants to build up a similar thing for HH. Once they got the basics finished in, say, 3-5 years well see if the game is profitable enough to keep in stock all the time or whether they'll do a rotation system like with lotr, with a couple additions here and there.

Looks to me like one particular poster here is confusing 'opinion' with 'fact'.

According to some reports, 30k is selling just as well as AoS.

drbored wrote:
Looks to me like one particular poster here is confusing 'opinion' with 'fact'.

According to some reports, 30k is selling just as well as AoS.

All 3 of my local flgs flat out told me 30k outsold AOS 2/1.... they all still have plenty of AOS boxed sets(not just dominion).

Anecdotal evidence, but around here HH has almost completely replaced 40k.
People are done with the mechanics of 9th ed, and the older players (i.e.: those that have been around since before 8th ed 40k) really welcome the return of vehicle rules, templates, etc. It also
helps that we had a group of HH players for years already, all of whom were very excited for a new version of the game, better support, and more players.

In short?

Only GW know, and inkeeping with their approach of not breaking down their sales line by line or kit by kit? They’re not telling - nor do they have to.

Somewhere here is talking an awful lot of mince for reasons best known to themself. Sweeping statements with no evidence to back it up.

It’s been out a mere 8 months, give or take (last year was a busy year. I know I was in my new place when it launched, and I moved in end of April), and whilst many kits are yet to cross the Rubicon Plasticarus? We’ve had a pretty decent raft of releases, regardless of how you or I might’ve prioritised them.

Entirely anecdotal? Allow me to present my purchases.

I started with no Heresy force. Since launch, I’ve bought…

Age of Darkness x 2
Liber Astartes
Liber Hereticus
4 x Contemptor Dreadnoughts
3 x Deimos Rhino
3 x Deimos Support Predator
1 x Deimos Predator
1 x MkVI Marine box
1 x Assault Weapons
1 x Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter set
1 x Volkite/Lascannon/Autocannon set
1 x Leviathan (CCW)
1 x Leviathan ranged weapon sprue
1 x Kratos Heavy Tank
1 x Sicaran

And for sake of completeness, I swapped my 20 Cataphractii for 40 MkVI Marines in a straight up swapsies. I also bought a second hand Contemptor kit (giving me 7, to match me beard)

Now, this was mostly bought at varying discount. Some from Chaos Cards, as they’re literally round the corner from me and a five minute amble. Some from Element during their Black Friday sale. Couple of bits direct from GW.

I’ve still spent….let me check my actual orders, yeah?

£541.60 at Element
£6 at GW (Levi weapons, less my £10 W+ voucher. Shop Smart. Shop S-Mart)
£114.85 at Chaos Cards.

One player. £662.45 worth of spending. If bought from GW direct? £1,004.50

And my nascent force is A) Far from complete. B) pretty modest, going on the collections you see from long term Heresy players on FB. And so far hasn’t included any resin. Because we hates it precious. We likes our plastic we does.

Remember. I present this solely as an anecdote, but as factually accurate as I can.

Also do keep in mind yes I bagged a bunch of bargains - but that doesn’t particular affect GW’s income, as the price paid to them by my sources doesn’t change just because they then sell it on for less than RRP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Potential red herrings to keep in mind as well?

We could point out to difficulties in finding stuff In Stock as clear sign of success. However, that’s not the slam dunk you might think, because we’ve absolutely no idea what GW’s stock was.

To reflect on Dominion. For all we know, that had 100,000 boxes made, and sold 98,000. But if Heresy only had 50,000 boxes initially, and has now sold 78,000, simply looking at ongoing ease of availability is inherently misleading, do to us not having access to specific, necessary information. And that’s before we factor in Age of Darkness, for any Heresy player, is always an attractive option. Expensive, yes. But packed full of attractive and, importantly, staple units. Dominion, less so, because it contains two distinct forces.

In my group, 30k has done pretty well. 40k is still strong because my shop doesn't have a ton of space and people like boarding actions and small point crusade games, whereas 30k requires a full table to play instead of a half-table.

People are also waiting for other things to come out to complete their armies, like... assault marines...

Seeing the new 40k releases certainly makes me go look at the HH stuff again.

Feels like it's doing well in AUS. People have been noting overpoduction, certainly seems like we ain't getting much of it here. Long periods with stuff out of stock and when it's up it vanishes fast.

Groups and clubs seem to be popping up or getting more people participating, joined a few myself with a mixture of HH1 vets and new comers to HH2.

Yes we don't have the specific numbers, but the vibe so far is it's going well. If we see continued support, supplement books that add new missions, ROW and continued releases of plastic kits we'll know it's making enough money for GW to want to keep pumping cash into the project while expecting sufficient returns. So far we've seen quite a few releases, including big niche units like the Typhon and Cerberus. (Yes they are going to be only 1 or 2 sprues to add onto the spartan but it's still an expenditure that needs to be recouped for GW)

Locally there was initial excitement and the box set sold well, but the first attempt at a league fell flat. A tournament last fall did OK, however, and we just had a second one with 14 players. 40K tourneys here are usually 38 players which is the max for our space while our last AOS tourney had 16 players. So the game is doing fine and seems to be growing. Stuff sells when it comes in, and that seems to be the case in other local stores. There are two larger cities within a two hour drive and they have healthy Horus Heresy scenes.

I only started playing recently. It struck me that the designers did their best to make the game tough for players to enter. They clearly love their USRs and have developed a near-impenetrable barrier of USRs in multiple places in an apparent attempt to dissuade 40K 9th edition players from coming over. I jest, of course, but they really outdid themselves. Still, I do get some nostalgia for the old-style of 40K and I am enjoying the experience.

I do like the plastic kits. Space Marine tanks for 30K are rather ironic, but perhaps they could have just gone with the Spartan and maybe the Sicaran to get going and get some plastic Assault Marines (or an Assault Squad kit like the heavy weapons) on the shelves.

Saw HH played in person for the first time two weeks ago, might have been the first game ever played in my country.

The box generated huge buzz but our community is starting from nothing and the lack of any meaningul releases outside tanks tanks and more tanks has hampered our ability to build functional armies.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I only started playing recently. It struck me that the designers did their best to make the game tough for players to enter. They clearly love their USRs and have developed a near-impenetrable barrier of USRs in multiple places in an apparent attempt to dissuade 40K 9th edition players from coming over. I jest, of course, but they really outdid themselves. Still, I do get some nostalgia for the old-style of 40K and I am enjoying the experience.

I know you're not being entirely serious, but have you looked at WH40k lately? HH is a doddle compared to the morass that 9th Edition has become.

I do like the plastic kits. Space Marine tanks for 30K are rather ironic, but perhaps they could have just gone with the Spartan and maybe the Sicaran to get going and get some plastic Assault Marines (or an Assault Squad kit like the heavy weapons) on the shelves.

Me too, and I agree with you - a Spartan and Sicaran (and a Deimos Rhino) would have been enough to give people some fun Heresy-era armour. The plastic Dreads were a good move, as were the weapons packs. But then the focus should then have been on infantry (including, IMO, some plastic characters) and perhaps Fast Attack.

OR, GW could've propperly timed the waves and the releases and made blocks.

F.e. Spartan Chasis one month, Infantry MK VI one month. Landspeeders and Jetbikes one month.

Terminators one month, etc. etc. et all.

Rhino month would've been huge because / Rhino, Vindicator, 2 Preds, etc. but we would've been far better along the release schedule and full functional armies.

Thing is? I don’t think anyone would say no to plastic Assault Marines - whether or not Jump Packs are packaged as an upgrade, perhaps along with Boarding Shields etc for Breachers.

Two boxes of 20 Assault Bods, one upgrade set = 3, maybe four Assault Oriented units for far, far less than we have to pay Forgeworld right now for the same - and I think that would be a pretty standard purchase among players, with of course more being sold to those with a tactical preference for HTH over shooting.

saw a comment on the lack of assault marines noting it may be down to production slots - they can hit releases that people will buy one or two of but assault marines where most players will want multiple boxes may be something they don't have production capacity for.

plausible I guess

personally I think we will get assault beakies and similar when the replacement for "Age of Darkness" is released

I am not a mini-designer or production manager, but I have to think they could make a $50 box with chainsword arms and bolt pistols with a few Sgt options to go on a MkVI Box. Whether they could also get 20 jump-packs in there would be tough. Maybe an upgrade box for ten assault marines with jump-packs.

I do feel that the game is picking up steam in my area, and it is great to see the plastic jet-bikes incoming!

leopard wrote:
saw a comment on the lack of assault marines noting it may be down to production slots - they can hit releases that people will buy one or two of but assault marines where most players will want multiple boxes may be something they don't have production capacity for.

That would at least be a sensible reason. They will sell out repeatedly, like the Deimos Rhinos did.

With the Horus Heresy going plastic and being readily available is to introduce it to the US market. Prior to Age of Darkness, HH was very niche and VERYfew people in the US had access or the funds to get an army. It was readily available in the U.K. And in Australia, it was cheaper than 40k depending on the exchange rates.

Since the release of Age of Darkness, the HH community in Florida has gone from double digits in my state of Florida to hundreds or players with the talk of adding it to conventions in 2024 as many are still deciding how to run events for it and they want people to have more access to troops other than tactical squads. I think some of the issues people have with the game will be fixed in errata as more of the model range become available.

 Snord wrote:

 Gert wrote:
GW says the AoD box sold well and people who don't like GW will say that's a lie. Some people claim the AoD box outsold the Dominion box for AoS and honestly I see no way to prove that true or false. People will claim that because there were a lot of AoD boxes it means GW overproduced whereas I see it as GW actually doing a proper job with the launch box by producing more than enough to keep the support of the game continuing. Some local communities will grow and others won't.

Yes, that seems like a good summary. As with everything, there is a deranged element on each side of the argument. There is the old guard of HH players who hate the new edition even more than they hate 9th Edition WH40k, hate the fact that GW went with Mk VI power armour, and especially hate all the new HH players who have jumped onto the bandwagon. And on the other side are the WH40k players who maintain that HH is a dead game, bitterly resent the resources that GW is devoting to it (because this means less stuff for WH40k), and make weird statements about HH being unbalanced at a time when 9th Edition is see-sawing all over the place.

As Gert said, it's subjective. Subjectively, I moved across from WH40k because I think the rule system is unnecessarily complicated and unintuitive, and the changes are too frequent. And my Orks always seemed to get the shaft. HH offered features which I had liked in previous editions of WH40k (like templates and specific rules for vehicles) and which I didn't like seeing dropped. And there are no stratagems. HH also offered the more retro aesthetic that I had always associated with this game. The Heresy fluff is in some ways more limited (and I miss my Orks), but it's also enjoyable to work within its pseudo-historical setting. It's very Marine-centric - I think that's a fair criticism. Hopefully it will gradually open up more, which would mean plastic kits for non-Marine factions, but I think this will take some time. Its rule system has some issues, I know, but they are far less problematic than WH40k's. They could fix them with an FAQ, and probably will, but one of the other advantages (to me) of HH is that it is not constantly being tinkered with.

Is it successful? I think it has been quite successful, judging mostly from what I see on the net. But if Dakka is any indication, it's still fairly niche - look at the relatively low level of traffic on this sub-forum. Our local GW has HH kits in stock, whereas it doesn't stock other non-core games, and they tell me it's selling well. The question is whether it can grow and attract continued support from GW. That will only happen if GW plows more into it. The biggest issue with HH at the moment is that lack of key (Marine) units in plastic. GW have pumped out an impressive number of plastic tank kits, and I think these, along with the 2 Dreadnought kits, have contributed greatly to the apparent success of the game. But I suspect that quite a lot of them were bought to add to WH40k armies (e.g. Deimos Rhinos and variants) or just for display. They may not continue to sell strongly. In the meantime, GW have held back on assault infantry, when these are a vital part of the game. They need to fill that hole quickly - and perhaps to look at units other than tanks that would make interesting and attractive plastic models. I'd argue they also need to do some generic character kits.

I think we're still in a transitional phase with HH. Many long-term HH players still haven't really accepted the new edition, and might become disenchanted. Many new players are still attracted by the novelty of it, the new models and (in cases like mine) the return to an earlier rules system. The plastic model range is still incomplete. It'll probably take several months before it's clear whether HH is a success and here to stay. I certainly hope so.

I agree - what I like most is that when you play marine on marine, the game is pretty balanced as we are both pulling from the same list with the exception of 2-3 units, 1-4 characters, a Primarch, and legion rules. Balance goes away with the other books because some Legions have no issues dealing with Mechanicus or Auxiliary. Though with my games, I've found that as long as you enjoy painting the models and your Legion the game is fun.

As far as it being marine centric and a pseudo historical game, it does follow the fluff really well. I mean the space marine legions were the primary focus during the Heresy. There were other factions like Mechanicus, militias, and Auxiliary but the focus of the Horus Heresy was always on the 18 legions first and foremost. I'd like to see them address these other factions after the marines have their core line troops in plastic - so after despoilers/ assault troops, recon, and boarding marines. Then GW can make the the Mechanicus in plastic as well. I mean I'd like some of those models but in the US, not many people want to spend more than $1,000 on a bunch of resin models to get barely enough to play 2,000 points.

boyd wrote:
Since the release of Age of Darkness, the HH community in Florida has gone from double digits in my state of Florida to hundreds or players with the talk of adding it to conventions in 2024 as many are still deciding how to run events for it and they want people to have more access to troops other than tactical squads. I think some of the issues people have with the game will be fixed in errata as more of the model range become available.

Goonhammer has a report on an invitation-only HH tournament held by SN Battlereports: https://www.goonhammer.com/horus-heresy-no-retreat-iii-trip-report/

If this is the kind of quality that HH is attracting, then the future looks promising.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am not a mini-designer or production manager, but I have to think they could make a $50 box with chainsword arms and bolt pistols with a few Sgt options to go on a MkVI Box. Whether they could also get 20 jump-packs in there would be tough. Maybe an upgrade box for ten assault marines with jump-packs.

I do feel that the game is picking up steam in my area, and it is great to see the plastic jet-bikes incoming!

I suspect assault marines will be a new box with different poses, at least I hope so..

could see it as a pair of upgrade frames though, a frame of just jump packs (well and maybe a few bits if there is space) and a frame of bolt pistol & chainsword arms with some additional options intended to replace the current smaller tactical squad frame

On the “it’s only Marine vs Marine” thing?

Folks need to consider the impact of Rites of War, as yes everyone is essentially pulling from a common pool, but Rites of War drastically alter the feel and ability of your army.

So yes, a game could be Ultramarines vs Ultramarines. But thanks to Rites of War, they may yet only have a colour scheme in common.

This isn’t intended to have a silent “so STFU”. Even with Rites of War some may feel there’s just not the variety they want. And that’s entirely fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am not a mini-designer or production manager, but I have to think they could make a $50 box with chainsword arms and bolt pistols with a few Sgt options to go on a MkVI Box. Whether they could also get 20 jump-packs in there would be tough. Maybe an upgrade box for ten assault marines with jump-packs.

I do feel that the game is picking up steam in my area, and it is great to see the plastic jet-bikes incoming!

I suspect assault marines will be a new box with different poses, at least I hope so..

could see it as a pair of upgrade frames though, a frame of just jump packs (well and maybe a few bits if there is space) and a frame of bolt pistol & chainsword arms with some additional options intended to replace the current smaller tactical squad frame

Current MkVI would make for quite dull assault troops, as they’re all in firing poses. It’s doable of course, but I would much prefer dedicated assault bodies.

definite +1 for dedicated assault bodies, ideally with the same torso width so all arms become interchangeable