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gorgon wrote: He also doesn't 'flat-out' murder Ra's. He allows him to die, but that also means he allowed him to potentially escape.
Batman provides an accomplice with the means to take out the bridge so as to be free to be on the train, gloats that he could save the guy but won't, and leaves him with the choice to jump to his death or race aboard the train to his death. The intent to see him perish in a train crash is there and Batman has every opportunity to save him and let the courts take care of a criminal instead.
Nope, totally not murder.
I have a hard time applying real-world logic to the scenario. Ra's is a super villain ninja in a comic book movie. There's almost no reason to think that he WOULD die in that scenario, or at the very least stay dead. If anything, Bruce was being sloppy by giving him plenty of opportunity to make his super-villain escape.
gorgon wrote: He also doesn't 'flat-out' murder Ra's. He allows him to die, but that also means he allowed him to potentially escape.
Batman provides an accomplice with the means to take out the bridge so as to be free to be on the train, gloats that he could save the guy but won't, and leaves him with the choice to jump to his death or race aboard the train to his death. The intent to see him perish in a train crash is there and Batman has every opportunity to save him and let the courts take care of a criminal instead.
Nope, totally not murder.
Forget Ras. He flicks the bomb into a barrel of explosives and kills an entire building of people including the guy he refused to kill. He grabs 2 league of shadows guys and throws them off a building. He throws Harvey Dent off a building. And after telling catwoman no guns he gets into a weird helicopter tank and shoots rockets into Talia's truck and throws her off a bridge to her death as well.
You could nit pick over Ras all day. Bales Batman is only less murderous than Afleks.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Do you think The Authority will still have not-Superman and not-Batman as a gay couple? Will not-Iron Man kill an entire maternity ward to make sure one baby is killed? Will not-Captain America rape not-Superman again?
I've enjoyed Gunn's work but this announcement sounds like a train wreck of a DCU.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote: Do you think The Authority will still have not-Superman and not-Batman as a gay couple? Will not-Iron Man kill an entire maternity ward to make sure one baby is killed? Will not-Captain America rape not-Superman again?
I've enjoyed Gunn's work but this announcement sounds like a train wreck of a DCU.
My guess is yes, no, and no. That it'll be a toned-down version that'll still contrast with (thereby elevating?) Superman and the other JL heroes, as LunarSol alluded. Who knows...maybe the Authority forms first, sparking the formation of the JL as a response. It's a pretty curious addition otherwise, although I thought they were a fun read.
Given the entire MCU is more or less built on a run of comics with a similar list of edgy nonsense, I'd argue there's probably a decent way to clean them up a bit while keeping what makes them compelling.
DC has had some awesome movies including for me THE iconic Batman film - The Tim Burton one but even that - like the much weaker Nolan one spawned increasingly poor sequals. keepinf quality has always been difficult.
The new annoucement - well I imagine the roadmap laid out will stand or fall on the quality of the firs few movies or the new guy will be gone...
Nothing really stood out as a must see - but then again thats the same for the current Marvel Phase.
Do you think The Authority will still have not-Superman and not-Batman as a gay couple?
Why would they not - it will play sooo well with the kids...so on brand etc.
Will not-Iron Man kill an entire maternity ward to make sure one baby is killed? Will not-Captain America rape not-Superman again? .
Probably not.
The Authority was the poster child for try hard edge writing.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Seems like another CGI fest, and I can't imagine they'll do it much justice given that they're about to wipe the slate clean. It doesn't help that the villain isn't likely to be very engaging, apparently it's Carapax the Indestructible Man? Even searching him up shows really little, so I doubt they'll do a good job of setting him up beyond a one-time bad guy.
James Gunn had a lot to draw together even beyond the films. And he was quick to concede that his previous projects at DC just added to the smorgasbord of content:
"We have the 'Arrowverse,' and even us, coming in with 'Suicide Squad,' 'Peacemaker,' and what is it exactly? And then all of sudden Bat-Mite's a real guy. So how can we take these things together and make them make sense and have them unified and have one real universe, one real world? And I think that we've gotten lucky with the next four movies, frankly, because we have 'Shazam!,' which leads into 'Flash,' which resets everything. Which then goes to 'Blue Beetle,' which is totally disconnected, he can totally be a part of the DCU."
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Huh, interesting. I guess this gives them potential to look into The Reach at some point if they want a different alien invasion than Apokolips/Darkseid after the failure of Justice League.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/03 18:15:22
Easy E wrote: DCU seems like it is totally floundering.
I have my concerns about Gunn's DCU, but it's weird to say it's floundering when there won't even be a real DCU film until 2025.
Gunn's point about Blue Beetle is that it could technically be grandfathered into the DCU because it's standalone and doesn't link into any of the old DCEU stuff. No Cavill, Gadot, Affleck, etc. Obviously it's not part of Gunn's official slate that we've seen so far, so any official DCU sequel is probably dependent on this one making a tidy profit.
Right, duh, Blue Beetle is DC… Anyways, as I said in the Marvel thread, it’s not the voice I’d have expected for Khaji-da, but the suit looks Amazing. I’m down for this.
The blue beetle trailer made me pause. What if DC grabbed some of these lesser known characters and teams and built up that way? I know that is partly their plan but this trailer was way more interesting than yet another batman/superman/JL centered story.
I almost certainly wouldn’t pay to see one of the big characters in a movie but this one at least makes me think about checking it out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/04/04 04:22:57
Mr Morden wrote: DC has had some awesome movies including for me THE iconic Batman film - The Tim Burton one but even that - like the much weaker Nolan one spawned increasingly poor sequals. keepinf quality has always been difficult.
The new annoucement - well I imagine the roadmap laid out will stand or fall on the quality of the firs few movies or the new guy will be gone...
Nothing really stood out as a must see - but then again thats the same for the current Marvel Phase.
Do you think The Authority will still have not-Superman and not-Batman as a gay couple?
Why would they not - it will play sooo well with the kids...so on brand etc.
Will not-Iron Man kill an entire maternity ward to make sure one baby is killed? Will not-Captain America rape not-Superman again? .
Probably not.
The Authority was the poster child for try hard edge writing.
That's Warren Ellis, and pretty much hiis entire catalogue. As die-hard of a fan of the Ultraverse as I was/am, it is still a chore to reread his stuff.
Saw the trailer for Flashpoint before Honor Among Thieves and noticed that the other Barry is wearing primarily yellow clothes and accessories (like the headphones) which makes me wonder if they are going to be having him as his own Reverse Flash of if that is Reverse Flash just messing with Barry. He's been know to mess with The Flash on occasion.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
AduroT wrote: Right, duh, Blue Beetle is DC… Anyways, as I said in the Marvel thread, it’s not the voice I’d have expected for Khaji-da, but the suit looks Amazing. I’m down for this.
I am less concerned with the voice and more with the quips.
Watch Young Justice. The Scarab in that is perfect. A tactical computer that bluntly states plans of attack and odds of success. A dispassionate weapon AI that, on occasion, shows the affection it has built up for Jamie. I don't need the scarab to be crackin wise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/04 06:21:59
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
The Authority is a weird call given its a grim-derp mix of knock off heroes (although I like The Doctor being more time lord than Strange and Hawksmoore being Urban Swamp Thing)
And still no Tim Hunter or Tefe projects, for shame
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/04/04 12:34:52
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Turnip Jedi wrote: The Authority is a weird call given its a grim-derp mix of knock off heroes (although I like The Doctor being more time lord than Strange and Hawksmoore being Urban Swamp Thing)
And still no Tim Hunter or Tefe projects, for shame
You have to remember that from an executive level, where no real interaction with the material exists outside of the interaction with the product, DC's highest points have always been Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, and the Watchmen. They've been trying to recreate those works without an appreciation for the environment that created them for decades, similar to Sony's endless push to make Venom happen.
Easy E wrote: DCU seems like it is totally floundering.
How can something that hasn't started yet be floundering?
The fact that it has to restart at all is a pretty obvious reason why it is floundering. How much did they spend on a group of movies that are irrelevant before they even launch? That seems like the definition of floundering but what do I know?
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Turnip Jedi wrote: The Authority is a weird call given its a grim-derp mix of knock off heroes (although I like The Doctor being more time lord than Strange and Hawksmoore being Urban Swamp Thing)
And still no Tim Hunter or Tefe projects, for shame
You have to remember that from an executive level, where no real interaction with the material exists outside of the interaction with the product, DC's highest points have always been Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, and the Watchmen. They've been trying to recreate those works without an appreciation for the environment that created them for decades, similar to Sony's endless push to make Venom happen.
Fair point, plus we are nudging into the 30 years part of the Nostalgia Cycle hence The Boys, Preacher, Sandman etc although a lot of 90's stuff was just copying Miller or Moore without quite understanding why, I'm just crossing my fingers for a Marvel Man effort as its my preferred "supers break the world" over Warchmen (heck even shoehorn Winter into the MCU once Brie has had enough)
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
Easy E wrote: DCU seems like it is totally floundering.
How can something that hasn't started yet be floundering?
The fact that it has to restart at all is a pretty obvious reason why it is floundering. How much did they spend on a group of movies that are irrelevant before they even launch? That seems like the definition of floundering but what do I know?
Perhaps we misunderstood. The 'DCU' is James Gunn's new universe, which looks to be starting completely fresh. The old universe was generally referred to as the 'DCEU'.
The DCEU is essentially dead, with a few zombie projects still to come before the new DCU truly launches in 2025. We're well past 'floundering' with the DCEU, given the last several years including multiple rounds of executive firings, studio meddling, director shenanigans, mini reboots that led nowhere, etc. Add that all up and it has to be one of the bigger gakshows in Hollywood history.
Gunn is going in a very different direction with his universe, even if a couple of the announced projects seem Snyder-y. I mostly question the audience's appetite for a reboot and management's patience with a 10-year plan.
Turnip Jedi wrote: The Authority is a weird call given its a grim-derp mix of knock off heroes (although I like The Doctor being more time lord than Strange and Hawksmoore being Urban Swamp Thing)
And still no Tim Hunter or Tefe projects, for shame
You have to remember that from an executive level, where no real interaction with the material exists outside of the interaction with the product, DC's highest points have always been Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, and the Watchmen. They've been trying to recreate those works without an appreciation for the environment that created them for decades, similar to Sony's endless push to make Venom happen.
The more you imagine WB studio execs as a bunch of brainless, low attention span, SNL-style caricatures with zero understanding of the source material, the more the last decade makes sense. They were just grabbing onto trends and past successes and test scores and box office results with no real understanding of WHY things did and didn't work.
Supposedly the lowest testing characters in Whedon's JL movie were Batman and Superman. And I don't think it's a coincidence that they basically permanently sidelined Cavill after 2017. They almost certainly thought the problem was HIM, and after that maybe the character of Kal-El itself. Ergo, no Cavill or Kal-El movies in general, and multiple alt-Superman projects in the works. In fact, let's just swap Kal-El out for a female version, because that's all they thought Supergirl was. (They were never going to sideline Batman like that, because to them Batman = bank.)
Could go on and on. I don't like being like that, but if you dumb down your thinking, a lot of WB's actions and reactions kinda fall into place. Kevin Feige's genius isn't on the creative side, but in his ability to wrangle studio chuckleheads and get them to trust him.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/04/04 19:27:33
Fair enough. I guess I don't see Gunn's DCU as a "re-boot" as much as a continuation of execs still not knowing what the hell they are doing.
I doubt they even let Gunn keep going past his first big movie, because it won't re-invent the superhero genre and bring HUGE bank. If it's anything less than record shattering, they will panic.
At least, that is my impression based on how Execs have handled the entire thing up to this point.
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Easy E wrote: Fair enough. I guess I don't see Gunn's DCU as a "re-boot" as much as a continuation of execs still not knowing what the hell they are doing.
I doubt they even let Gunn keep going past his first big movie, because it won't re-invent the superhero genre and bring HUGE bank. If it's anything less than record shattering, they will panic.
At least, that is my impression based on how Execs have handled the entire thing up to this point.
I think that's a fair impression, yes. WB thought MoS was a disappointment because it did $670 million in 2013 dollars instead of a billion like Avengers. But that's a very nice showing for a first film in a reboot/new franchise, and the BO should have been compared to Batman Begins or Marvel's early phase 1 movies. Stay patient, make a few course corrections in the sequel, and they probably would have been rewarded. *shrug*
One difference now is that DC Studios is a thing, with bosses who get comic books and CBMs, and they don't have to navigate the WB studio chuckleheads anymore. Problem is that the new big boss doesn't seem like the patient type, and I agree it's going to be very interesting if Superman: Legacy ends up doing less in BO than MoS did.
The problem is that James Gunn is entirely the wrong person to be heading DC franchises. He can pay as much lip service as he wants, but he is entirely wrong for it.
I don't think Snyder's right for it either, but he's at least a better fit when he got to work unhindered.
With the way superhero movies are getting slaughtered at the box office, and even other blockbusters fizzling out like duds, I doubt any DC movie in the next two years will make MOS money. The quality of the film is almost irrelevant.
